Front exhaust pipe install with Koenig front winch PTO shaft in place

[slowpatina]

I'm looking to replace a IIA 88 2.25 exhaust system on a Series with original Koenig front winch driven by front PTO shaft. The shaft runs forward to the winch, parallel between the frame and the block.

I'm concerned the space between the PTO shaft and the block isn’t wide enough to fit the front (manifold end) of the front exhaust pipe through with its sliding mounting ring/bracket.

That space is questionably narrow and removing the PTO shaft in order to install the front exhaust pipe would be a *real* pain.

A verbose way of asking, have any of you successfully installed a front exhaust pipe while the front PTO shaft is in place, on a IIA?

Thanks

[charles1943]

Back in the day KEONIG supplied a factory header pipe with a dimple they put in it for clearance. Someone handy could do the same.....

[slowpatina]

Back in the day KEONIG supplied a factory header pipe with a dimple they put in it for clearance. Someone handy could do the same.....

Thanks, charles1943. I may be mistaken but I'm thinking the pipe dimple you mention is a mod lower down the vertical section of the front pipe itself so it doesn't contact the PTO shaft once the pipe is bolted in place. This truck's existing front pipe seems original and indeed has a pipe dimple exactly where the pipe passes the PTO shaft so they don't touch. The dimple mod is the easy part :)

Before I dive in, buy parts, and remove the old front pipe, or, give the job to a trusted shop... I'm keen to know if it's possible to squeeze/get the *front end* of the front pipe (and sliding mounting bracket) up through the gap between the winch's PTO shaft and the block... in order to get the pipe end and pipe mount bracket up to the manifold (without removing PTO shaft).

Are you saying the dimple's existence helps navigate the front end of the pipe and the sliding mount bracket up/through the PTO shaft and block gap? If so, then I'm envisioning fitting the end of the pipe up through the gap first, then sliding the triangular pipe mounting bracket to the dimple area where the pipe is "narrower" ...and then separately trying to get the bracket up through the gap between the shaft and block... perhaps at a slight angle with thanks to loose bracket play allowed by the dimple area. Is that what you mean? Thanks.

Ideally I'd love to also hear from someone who has been through this and fit the front pipe successfully with the PTO shaft in place... even if a shop did it for them...

Cheers

[jimrr]

I installed a koenig on my S3 out of the box when that landrover was about 2 years old....(1975).... everything fit.
I can't imagine much change where that shaft goes, It does travel above the cross member.
If i were you i'd cram that shaft in there .......... I am assuming it runs off the xfer case? if not you're dealing with the shaft that runs the capstan winch. you'll get it to work after all this, let us know how it goes?

[charles1943]

It's been a VERY LONG time since I last saw 1 of those KOENIG-modified pipes but if I recall correctly the dimple was perhaps 1 /2" deep (??) and perhaps 1/2 way down the block [from front to back] A quick mock up of the drive shaft and the header pipe would be instructive in my view. It would be easy to "dimple" it by taking an appropriate-sized [ 1" maybe] deep well socket [black tend to be stronger], heat the pipe to cherry red just around the point where the dimple will provide the required clearance and putting it in the vise RIGHT QUICK before it cools....not too deep so as not to restrict the flow of gasses. Given that the top of your pipe has a ball swelling the pipe can be biased by as much as 3/8", perhaps more....so as not to need too deep a 'dimple". Voila!!

[jimrr]

remembering 45 years ago it does seem i had to dent the pipe with something, i'm lucky i didn't break the exhaust manifold but as a ''driveway fabricator'' it all turned out ok and got me out of plenty of tight spots.

[slowpatina]

Thanks for the input, gentlemen. In answer to you, jmrr, yes the PTO shaft runs off the transfer case. Pic attached. And, yep, above the crossmember.

The topic of the pipe dimple keeps coming up but I'm not concerned about that... however, charles1943, good to know "Given that the top of your pipe has a ball swelling, the pipe can be biased by as much as 3/8".

The concern is squeezing that ball swelling front pipe end and it's sliding bracket mount through the space between PTO shaft and block. Sounds like you, jimrr, had a successful experience with that long ago. This truck is a late IIA (1971) so I bet you're right that not much changed with your ~1973 S3 as regards how the Koenig shaft was mounted. Maybe I'll go ahead and get the parts and give it a shot at home. If it doesn't work out, I'll need to tow it to a shop... or damage a few people's ears by driving it with no pipes!

Thanks again for the input,
Signed with crossed fingers!

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[charles1943]

I'd suggest trial-fitting both the drive shaft and the header pipe, then marking the obvious tight spot on the pipe. The dimple as i recall was not more than 2" wide at the very most and perhaps 3/8" deep at the most. There should be a center-bearing support bracket at the [approximate] mid point of the drive shaft, that secures to the oil pan rail. How tightly that makes the shaft to the block will determine how deep your dimple will need to be. The drilled holes in that bracket may be approximate and might be enlarged slightly to put the shaft closer to the block if keonig's measurements were only approximate....which suggestion may or may not be relevant. Your learning curve is pretty steep but if you go slowly the results should be satisfying. Good luck!!

[charles1943]

Could you post an image of where the sahft passes the header pipe? That might help 2 see how tight things r

[jimrr]

that photo is most informative. My PTO is mounted vertically, it's been there since i was 20, lucky i have not wiped it off yet. mine is obviously much lower, is that how the book said to mount it? I like it where you have it, tucked up higher out of the way and now with my rig being bashed the driveline comes undone a lot. yours probably flexes less due to its higher positon?

[slowpatina]

Could you post an image of where the shaft passes the header pipe? That might help 2 see how tight things r


It's not easy to convincingly photograph the issue but this pic gives the idea. I'll be giving it a shot and appreciate your wish of luck.
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[slowpatina]

that photo is most informative. My PTO is mounted vertically, it's been there since i was 20, lucky i have not wiped it off yet. mine is obviously much lower, is that how the book said to mount it? I like it where you have it, tucked up higher out of the way and now with my rig being bashed the driveline comes undone a lot. yours probably flexes less due to its higher positon?

Interesting your PTO is vertical. I'm 99.99% sure this was installed by Land Rover or the dealer. Perhaps even by Koenig... though I doubt they visited dealerships to aid in install. Regardless, this PTO's position hasn't been altered since new in 1971. In my files I found these two images which seem to show it at an angle like mine.

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