driv'n through hades and back (vapor lock)

[scott]

me and my iia move to 29 palms ca. average temps here about 105. back in albuquerque i was having vapor lock problem on days when the temps hit the high 90s. new exhaust, carb heat shield added, steal fuel line routed behind instead of over and the problem went away. the truck has been running great out here even with the 105 degree days.

drove down to palm desert in the middle of the day, the truck she runs great. hang with my nephew and after a couple of beers i ask him if he want to go 4 wheeling. he drags my iia w/ his big dodge out to some desert canyons. 7pm and it's still 118. i did some serious pucker factor climbs and desents and now about 8pm we're crusin slow down a dry river bed and it vapor locks. now it's start drive 20 yards die, let sit, retart and another 20 yards. suns gone so i give him my shoes as he had sandles on, and my mini mag and send him on a 2 mile hike to his truck. after about 20 minutes i put the crank to it, cuz the battery's gone and get it going. get out of the river bed and limp back to the highway where i find his truck, turn arround and head out into the darken desert towards a bobbibg little light. it's the neph, he jumps end, we turn around make it about a 1/4 mile and PD lives up to her name. so we get out and start walking back to his truck. can't find it in the dark, walk in circles for more than an hour. find it and head off to look for PD. find her, hook her up and drag her back to palm desert.

next day i head out for 29 palms at the hottest part of the day. 120 degrees (why do people live here?) she dies about 3 time befor i get to highway 10. i throw the spare and the bonnet in the tub. head down the highway and she dies. i wrap a shop rage around the fuel filter just befor the carb, wet it down and cruise doing about 30 mph on the shoulder. turn east on 62 and head back to the stumps, stopping every 10 minutes to let it cool off and cuz she dies. i finally crawl on to the base after an 1 1/2 hour drive that took 6.

i've learn that even though i can't tell the difference between 105 and 120 Princess Died can

[jp-]

I didn't see a question in the story, but if you want to solve the problem you will need to:

Insulate the fuel line.

Use an electric fuel pump mounted under the truck on the frame and away from all engine heat.

[LaneRover]

I am not sure why people live out there either. Did do a job in Phoenix in August once and had to bring my 65 Rover to it (which has original type fuel lines and pump). I only had a vapourlock problem once and that was at the ASU book store after driving, parking,driving parking and then dead. I let it cool down a bit and I was fine - but it might not have been 120.

Yes insulating the fuel line and an electric pump by the tank may solve the problem in the future.

But if the fuel in the tank is already hot from a 120º day then it will vapour lock very easily. In a pinch you may have been better off stopping and getting some cooler fuel (may not have been an option) or stopping for ice to throw on the tank and another bag or two in your footwell as you might as well try to be a bit cooler too!

Or, wait until it isn't 120 to go 4 wheelin!

Let me know if you head down San Diego way!

Brent

[scott]

i do have an elec pump by the tank. i didn't think about icing down the tank. i will insulate the fuel lines and i'll be in mirmar the end of sep.

[jp-]

You could put some dry ice in the tank... Maybe...

[scott]

i think i'll remove the psg seat and access panel, cut the bottom out of an ice chest and sit it on top of the tank. that way cold drinks and cool fuel will be right at hand

[daveb]

new exhaust, carb heat shield added, steal fuel line routed behind instead of over

LOL, cool name. :)

Correct routing for the 2.25 fuel line is up and forward from the fuel pump, passing in FRONT of the valve cover but behind the thermostat housing, then back to the carb. I've always run mine this way and I've NEVER experienced vapor lock. I use the plastic hose that is stock for a series. I've also never driven a series in anything over 100F, so YMMV. What electric pump are you using?

rgrds
dave

[LaneRover]

i do have an elec pump by the tank. i didn't think about icing down the tank. i will insulate the fuel lines and i'll be in mirmar the end of sep.

Damn! I guess that means I'd better get my Rover running well! I currently spend my weeks in LA and week-ends in SD, lets talk later in the month and maybe we can get together for a beer.

Brent

[scott]

daveb thanks. i'll try routing it forward as you explained. i've a cheap checker auto parts elec diaphram type. the neph suggested an impelar type. PD is crapp'n out today, 110 at noon and climbing

lane, beer is good.

[Leslie]

29 stumps..... only reason to live there is to train up folks like you to go to other places of the world as the military needs you, and you won't fall over instantly upon arrival! I've got a friend living in Bahrain right now (Navy, FWIW), and the stories he tells......

[badvibes]

Scotty-

Darnation! Thought we had the problem solved. Are you having any issue with the sediment from the fuel additive? Filters clear? What about your radiator issues? Leaks fixed? There is an anti-freeze, water replacement radiator coolant available. I don't recall the name. I'll try to run it down. It supposedly has greater efficiency than anti-freeze and water and can cool high engine temps better.

On a side note, the bulls are bugling in 5 already. No shots. Rain everyday, some hail. T's still in camp, I got back tonight. Going back Friday. Had to drag a blowdown, like that time with you, off the road to get back out today.

Jeff

[scott]

dude you may have hit on something, and it ain't an elk. i haven't fixed the radiator and as much water as i've been adding there's gotta be no anti-freeze left in it. some marines just drug it back up to my quarters from where she died today. it's 830 pm and still in the 90s

[scott]

29 stumps..... only reason to live there is to train up folks like you to go to other places of the world as the military needs you, and you won't fall over instantly upon arrival! I've got a friend living in Bahrain right now (Navy, FWIW), and the stories he tells......

les

a squid in bahrain has got to be living the good life! if the addage "we sweat in training to minimize bleeding in battle" hold true then i ain't got crap to fret over. heck i'm soaked just walking from my house to chow

[badvibes]

Scott-

There's a product called "Purple Ice" that increases the ability of your coolant to deal with extreme heat. It's an additive. There's another one that totally replaces the water and antifreeze but I can't find the name.

J

[LaneRover]

I like the idea of a cooler with the bottom cut-off. Cool fuel and brews - just glad I don't have a series III so that I always have a bottle opener with me!

Though with my 109 Station Wagon I'll have to get that 'vacation smacking arm' that my Dad had whenever I was acting up in the back of the '73 Mercury station wagon if I want to be able to reach for a brew from the drivers seat!

Brent

[BackInA88]

Scott-

There's a product called "Purple Ice" that increases the ability of your coolant to deal with extreme heat. It's an additive. There's another one that totally replaces the water and antifreeze but I can't find the name.

J

I think your looking for this.....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Evans-NPG-NEVER-OVERHEAT-AGAIN-Coolant-System_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ50466QQihZ010QQi temZ200015222788QQtcZphoto

Redline makes a product called "Water Wetter" I believe?

Steve

[daveb]

just curious, what is wrong with the mechanical pump. they usually work just fine. the biggest problem with small electric pumps is that they have to have a very low pressure in order to not overflow the floatbowl at idle. then at higher rpms you starve out. Carter makes a rotary vane electric pump that is low pressure and hugh volume and works great with a small carb.

BUT...they are $100. Just get the proper mechanical pump and you should be fine. my $.02...


daveb thanks. i'll try routing it forward as you explained. i've a cheap checker auto parts elec diaphram type. the neph suggested an impelar type. PD is crapp'n out today, 110 at noon and climbing

lane, beer is good.

[scott]

just curious, what is wrong with the mechanical pump. they usually work just fine. the biggest problem with small electric pumps is that they have to have a very low pressure in order to not overflow the floatbowl at idle. then at higher rpms you starve out. Carter makes a rotary vane electric pump that is low pressure and hugh volume and works great with a small carb.

BUT...they are $100. Just get the proper mechanical pump and you should be fine. my $.02...

i've got a new mechanical but it didn't help. i've been told tha the lobe on the cam may have worn to the point that it doesn't move the pump's arm enough

[daveb]

hi

if that was the case then it stands to reason the rest of the cam is quite knackered as well, and you would probab ly notice the severe lack of power. LR 2.25 cams are not known for wearing out. you can see the cam lobe quite well if you pull the rectangular plate that the fuel pump mounts to.

you can easily hook up the pump and have someone crank the engine over a few times while you hold the line from the pump into a largish jar. or point it at the ground if you are cavalier about things. :)

you should get a steady spurt of gas each time it cranks. if you do, then the pump and lobe are fine.

then if you route the line from the stock pump following the correct path across the front of the engine then it will get a nice cooling breeze from the fan. it will even get water when yuo go through a puddle if you can find one out there :)

I'll try to find a pic of what I mean.

btw, the later SIII's that came into the states had a fuel filter on the firewall above the engine. this setup is known as the "vapor lock special"
...not recommended....






i've got a new mechanical but it didn't help. i've been told tha the lobe on the cam may have worn to the point that it doesn't move the pump's arm enough

[badvibes]

if that was the case then it stands to reason the rest of the cam is quite knackered as well, and you would probab ly notice the severe lack of power. LR 2.25 cams are not known for wearing out. you can see the cam lobe quite well if you pull the rectangular plate that the fuel pump mounts to.



Granted my truck's a pig, @6000 miles on a completely redone motor, Scott's got no lack of power comparatively. His truck runs stronger than mine on the flats, the hills, the freeway etc.

Jeff

[greenmeanie]

Scott,
Are you absolutely sure it is vapour lock? I ask this because I have a late SIIA in Phoenix and have run her on the freeway in 122°F without experiencing problems. I even have the dodgy line routing running through a P clamp over the top of the rocker cover. I confess this most liely doesn't help power on a hot day. I run a stock mechanical pump, bit of rubber hose with in-line filter up to a Rochester carb. I also put a piece of that woven heat proof sleeving over the fuel line as it passes over the manifold.

Two questions:
1. Have you pulled the fuel line to check that you are getting fuel through? Have you pulled the tank pick up to check everyone's favourite - the filter screen on the end of the tube.

2. Does your carb have the insulator block between it and the manifold?

I know what you mean about the heat. My 101 is decorating the driveway at the moment waiting on me to fix an intake gasket leak. As my IIA is runing well I am quite willing to wait until the end of Sept. for things to cool off.

Cheers
Gregor

[scott]

meanie

i've had the pick up tubes out and the have no screens, new tanks. i guess i'll pull 'em again and blast 'em with an air hose. i have a 3/4" block between my intake manifold and my weber 2 barrel. i think i have the same problem this morn'n and temp was only 85. left the parking lights on all night, dang it. it hand cranked right up but idle just long enough for me to throw the crank in the tub and get in, started to throttle up and it sputtered and died. maybe a 7 y/o optimus battery needs to be retired. i run a lucus 42 amp alternator and i believe if the bats dead the bugger won't run. i too had no problem on the hwy. this all started while crawling through a sandy wash in 117 degree temps.

[scott]

[quote=daveb]hi

if that was the case then it stands to reason the rest of the cam is quite knackered as well, and you would probab ly notice the severe lack of power. LR 2.25 cams are not known for wearing out. you can see the cam lobe quite well if you pull the rectangular plate that the fuel pump mounts to.quote]

thanks dave i'll take a look at that lobe and put the mech pump back in service and route the line forward

[LaneRover]

I had a semi re-occuring problem with my 65 a while back. Every once in awhile it would just die. I thought it was vapor lock but it was so sudden that I really questioned that. I couldn't figure out what was happening at all. One or twice I was towed home but usually after a bit it would clear. Luckily one of the times it cleared was when I was on Tabletop Mtn east of San Diego with a friend who has a type of Dystrophy.

It wasn't until it happened on a film set that I finally figured it out. At some point in the rebuild someone had tried to seal something up with some silicon somwhere in the fuel system. Bit by bit is was coming lose. Some would zip right through, some would jam up the system but eventually get pulled through. When I dropped the fuel sediment bowl it looked like I had a cup of Landrover 'Mojo'. I cleaned everything up, doublechecked the tank and repaired the screen at the end of the pick-up tube and have never had the problem repeat.

So as we all know, it can sometimes be something we don't expect and just because it seems to have cleared up doesn't mean it won't come back! (though to this day I rely on that second one a bit too much!!)

and this may be my shift into 1st gear....

[scott]

I like the idea of a cooler with the bottom cut-off. Cool fuel and brews - just glad I don't have a series III so that I always have a bottle opener with me!


Brent

remember, saftey first if you beer and 4 wheel always know that when you are asking yourself can i make it up or down that, you probably can't.

[LaneRover]

Thats why you keep sodas at the top of the cooler and when you are done at the end of the day the beer is cold and in reach!

Believe me, though I will fully admit that I have had a beer while going down a trail that last thing I can even imagine doing is to be driving impaired up or down the side of some mountain or through the desert.

Brent

[daveb]

bingo

Im going out on a limb here.

your fueling is fine and you've got a bad connection on the battery. do you know how to check for voltage drop?

connect a multimeter to both sides of a connection with the connection still connected. in other words, say if you want to check for voltage drop on a battery terminal:

set your multimeter to volts DC. with the cable still attached to the battery terminal, put one test lead on the clamp and one on the battery post. any voltage that shows on your meter is not getting through the connection.

try this on both battery posts, alternator to negative battery post, battery cable to battery clamp, cable terminals on solenoid or starter button. alternator 12v connection too.

if you find a bad connection then pull it apart and clean it up. if your meter reads 0 or .001 or soemthing you are fine. remember three places where voltage drop is .5 v means you are losing 1.5v., enough to leave your batter ydischarged if you are using the headlights etc.

I have seen this phenomenon stop a vehicle dead in its tracks. sometimes you just touch the connection and a spark will jump acrss and all of a suddedn the truck start fine until the next time you hit a bump.

btdt...

oh, you might need a new battery too.

and once you get it so you can crank it on the starter you can test the fuel pump pressure.

one clue that it is a voltage drop or bad connection problem is when you can't jumpstart it. btdt too...

let us know what happens

dave



meanie

i've had the pick up tubes out and the have no screens, new tanks. i guess i'll pull 'em again and blast 'em with an air hose. i have a 3/4" block between my intake manifold and my weber 2 barrel. i think i have the same problem this morn'n and temp was only 85. left the parking lights on all night, dang it. it hand cranked right up but idle just long enough for me to throw the crank in the tub and get in, started to throttle up and it sputtered and died. maybe a 7 y/o optimus battery needs to be retired. i run a lucus 42 amp alternator and i believe if the bats dead the bugger won't run. i too had no problem on the hwy. this all started while crawling through a sandy wash in 117 degree temps.

[4flattires]

Greanmeanie,

Just sent you a PM.

Jeff

[Jim-ME]

When my 65 started acting up like yours I found out that the connections at the solinoid were loose. I knew it wasn't vapor lock simply because i live in Maine. :D

[greenmeanie]

I 2nd that its an electrical problem.

My idiot story:
My engine would suddenly stop in unpredictable places. I jumped out and did the usual checks on battery terminals etc & fuel. It all seemed fine except that I couldn't get a spark. After a bit of head scratching and threatening her with the starting handle and then my favourite BFH I noticed that the push/pull cable to control the heater with its spiral wound metal casing was grounding out one of the terminals on the coil. A piece of rubber hose over the cable sorted it out permanently but i did feel like an idiot as I did the cable install.

Another favourite I have seen on a few Rovers are:
- The ground lead is either loose or has enough corrosion around it to prevent good contact. A second strap from the engine to the frame is always a cheap and effective improvement for reliability.
- The lead from the solenoid to the starter motor runs round the back of the engine. I have seen a few rovers back in the UK where the insulation wore through on the lead creating intermitent problems until finally it just shorted to the block.

Moral of the story is that it pays to check the simple and perhaps too obvious things before digging into the more complex/expensive stuff.

Cheers
Gregor

[scott]

well i just ripped apart, cleaned & reasembled the weber. my quarters smell like a garage now. tomorrow i put it back in as well as the battery that's on a long 2 amp charger. i'll check all my grounds and see what happens. i do stupid stuff like this a lot. now if it works i won't know if it was electrical or carburtor. the carb suggestion came from the mechanic down at the base auto hobby shop. i'm thinking vapor lock might not be the issue as i haven't been able to get it to run even in the cool (80 degree) mornings. i'm leaning towards thinking it was electrical. does heat have an ill affect on battery performance? like i mention earlier i've a 7 y/o optima

[greenmeanie]

Heat will eventually kill a battery. The conventional lead acid design has a life expectancy in Phoenix of 2 years with maintenance. The Optimas are supposed to be better as they are gel cell and not wet although I can't say I've had huge success with them. The life of your Optima depends on a few things like type red/yellow top, whether it has been allowed to go flat, the condition of your charge system and the loads applied to it etc. I found that for whatever reason my truck did not like the red tops and would kill one in about 1 year.

I would suggest doing a drop test on it to determine condition. Also, having completetly charged it check the voltage across the terminals. IIRC they suggest putting the lights on for a minute or so to remove any surface charge. It should be about 12.5V. Anything less than 11V and the starter won't turn. Whilst your at it you may as well check the alternator. Run the engine at approx 2000rpm and check the voltage across the terminals. If everything is good you should see about 14.5V.

Have fun with your electrical system.

Cheers
Gregor

[scott]

pd is running again. but like i said i don't know if it was a complete carb tear down and cleaning or the slow charge on the optima. as soon as i can get a hold of a volt meter i'll check for volt drop. what would cause this? bad battery? loose grounds? bad altenator? i've a lucas 43 amp. i think the po swaped the generator and voltage regulator for an alt out of a tr7. when autozone check there computer i suggested the look at what a '80 tr7 called for and it was a 43 amp and the picture look just like the alt i was holding. i think i sould build a new bracket tht'll fit what the early 70s heeps are using and get a 60 amp ac/delco

[greenmeanie]

Things that kill Optimas usually involve one of the spiral gel cell thingies breaking down. If its a red top they don't respond too well to deep discharging due to leaving the lights on. (A rather too common occurance in my case). I also have my suspiscions that they are rather sensitive to power quality. My truck has an old GM mechincal regulator external to a Delco (Unknown type) alternator and I think the poor power quality this gives kills the Optimas. That, of course, is just my opinion and I don't have the info to back it up yet.

A dead cell is easy to pick up as you charge the battery to capacity,run the lights to remove a surface charge and then check the voltage. Generally a bad cell shows as something less than 11V. Ultimately the heat out here just cooks everything. You won'y ever have to think about rust but the sun and heat eats rubber, canvas and oil seals.

A good site about alternators and fitting one to work properly is www.madelectrical.com (http://www.madelectrical.com). THey have a lot of info on Delco 10SI and 12SI conversions.

Cheers
Gregor

[Jim-ME]

Scott,
FWIW Pangolin sells a really nice looking set of brackets which allows a really clean installation of any Delco alt. You might want to check it out.
Jim

[luangwablondes]

Its possibly the diaphram on the mechanical fuel pump that's giving you grief. Went through that in Namibia once. Everyday, at the same time of day, when the temps were the highest- yeah what was I doing out then- the engine would die. I took it in to an old landy hand in the middle of nowhere Rundu and he knew immediatedly what the problem was.

[scott]

just got back from rov'n. a little in town a little hwy. all seems well. before hand i hooked up a bat/alt tester. at an idle it was reading 12.1 to 12.2 volts and 2 to 6 amps. turn on the lights, radio and turn signal and it read 12.1 to 12.2 v and 16 amps. rev it up to what i imagined to be cruis'n rpms and got 12.6 v 20 to 24 amps. and it is freak'n hot our here, i'd guess 110

jim-me

that $80 bracket look like something badvibes built from scraps laying around his garage but he added a rear piece to cut down on all vibration/wobble. the one i made for the lucas alt is 2 pieces of tube seperated by a piece of flat stock such that 1 tube fit insde the generator bracket and one between the front and rear tabs of the lucas(po used 2 adjustible flat pieces only on the front and it failed me at a most inopportune moment)

http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=318&stc=1&d=1189289870[/URL]
A fits between the lucas tabs and B fits insde the generator bracket and i use an adjustible (slotted flat stock to hold the top). all i need to do is replace the A tube with one cut to fit between the front & rear tabs of a delco alt.