Springs Springs Springs

[seriousseries]

I own a 71 IIA 88".

It is in need of a new chassis which I am going to put under it this winter.

What are my spring options?

Parabolics
Factory suspension kit
Custom Suspension from truck leaf springs shop.

I ask because right now it sits at a nice height even with rotten shocks and springs.

My dad just finished his 6th ground up restoration and only uses factory suspension parts, but his lates (a 67 series IIA 88) sits rather low.

Could the springs on my rover be a custom job from a suspension shop?

Could the year affect the ride height?

Thanks

[badvibes]

I own a 71 IIA 88".

It is in need of a new chassis which I am going to put under it this winter.

What are my spring options?

Parabolics
Factory suspension kit
Custom Suspension from truck leaf springs shop.

I ask because right now it sits at a nice height even with rotten shocks and springs.

My dad just finished his 6th ground up restoration and only uses factory suspension parts, but his lates (a 67 series IIA 88) sits rather low.

Could the springs on my rover be a custom job from a suspension shop?

Could the year affect the ride height?

Thanks

serious-

I guess you've identified the options is the question which way should you go? What do you expect your suspension to do? Do you want bigger tires?Do you want lift? Articulation? Good street manners/ride? Are you going to haul heavy loads of gear? All the above? If you like the way the springs on your truck currently sit and the way they perform I'd refurbish them and get some new shocks of the right length.

I have a friend who has a '64 2A, so do I, and it's rather convenient to see the differences, or lack thereof, between our trucks and the mods we make. We both run 235x85x16 tires. I went with a standard 88 suspension he went with parabolics. Our trucks sit within about 1/2" of each other height-wise. We both think his truck rides better on and off road. He likes the articulation he gets, though if the shocks are the correct length a standard suspension will flex OK too. :thumb-up: We're OK with this size tire and stock axles though Scott pushes his truck harder and has the broken axle shafts to prove it. I don't plan to wheel my truck as hard and use it more as a backcountry vehicle. I'm getting ready to install a rooftop tent this week.:cool: I'm hoping the stock 11 leaf rears will hold up better to loads of gear over time than parabolics. Time will tell.

So if you're a "Scott" go parabolics and push the envelope he has a lot of fun and he's fun to watch. For a backcountry trekker I think a standard suspension works well. But unless your current springs are thrashed, 3 out of 4 of my spring packs had at least 1 broken leaf that's why I bought new springs, it kinda sounds like you might be able to keep what you've got and just get shocks.

Jeff

[scott]

ain't nut'n better than big air in an old truck!

[alaskajosh]

I too am baffled by all the contradictory information out there among all the experts (real and self-proclaimed).

How many people have hailed paras as the best thing that ever happened to a Land Rover while just as many people call them (at best) a waste of money that will break, sag, and plague the owner with hazards including (but not limited to) death by roll-over.
I've heard at least one expert say that nothing rides smoother and articulates better than factory springs... Really.

All I know is that I'm not at all happy with the ride quality (smoothness) of the factory jobs. I, and my car, take a real hammering on the roads around here. And I have to think that the articulation could be improved upon as well.
But I'm scared to death of the parabolics after all the horror stories I've heard. Is it just a case of a few bad cases getting A LOT of attention?

[Terrys]

Josh, (and others)
I bought my first series truck 36 years ago, and to be very honest, I can not remember how many I have had since then. In fact, I'm going to pick one up this morning that I bought a few weeks ago. This new one sits on one ton springs.
I have put paras on two trucks in recent years. I can not point to a single example where I would have wished for something different. I was alot younger than I am now when I used one of these trucks as my sole means of transport, and also can not recall any experiences that would have made me wish for something different(conventional), though I seriously think youth tends not to understand or recognize comfort.
There isn't anything unique to Land Rovers and Parabolic springs. Ford has been using them on F series pickup trucks for nearly 40 years. I've also had 4 of those and they rode beautifully.

The manuver that people point to, when they speak negatively about parabolics, that may cause extreme body roll also keeps the highside wheel on the ground. In other words, the increase in articulation is both up and down, and both sides of the truck respond accordingly. The unladen side may respond less, but it's reponse is still better than multileaf springs.
I have a coil sprung truck and a parabolic sprung truck which have same body types (NAS 110 and Stage One 109) and can't say there's a whole lot of difference in driving them (They're both hot, cold, noisy and wet too).

[msggunny]

When i changed over to para's in 02 the difference in the ride was incredible.

It was like it actually had a suspension!

I dont know if it was because the orginal springs were rusted to gether or not, but i wont go with anything other than para's on my 88. 2 leaf in front and 2 in back. I ran that set up even with the safari top on it. No problems, but i have never been in terrain that requires a whole bunch of flex, yet.

Daily driving they are a god send. Trail's/dirt roads/off road good to go. The only "problem" i have had with them was during a 45 min trip down a dirt road with softball sized rocks strewn all over it. Had to slow down considerably to keep it from bouncing all over the road.

However: I have never had it "expedition" loaded, just hard top, camping gear, 20 gallons of fuel on top of the 20 in the tanks, some tools and 2 passengers.

No sagging yet!

[alaskajosh]

That's good to hear, gents. The paras may be back on my consideration list... I've got to do something.

Any drawbacks? Any naysayers care to weigh in?

[I Leak Oil]

Given all the "stories" that give parabolics a bad name I have yet to see any sort of scientific comparison of parabolic sping stability and original stability. I bet there have been many a rolled over Land Rover that had original style springs. Would any of the incidents that involved truck with para. springs still have occurred with originals? I bet a good percentage of incidents would have occurred no matter what spring was on the vehicle. We're driving old, narrow wheelbase, high center of gravity vehicles...rovers have terrible brakes, are way under powered and what's with the steel dash? I wouldn't trade mine for the world but if our biggest concern is safety then we should be driving a Volvo! Drive some trucks with different setups and decide what you want and need. Remember what opinions are like....
Jason T.

[daveb]

I rolled my 88 on it's side off-roading with the regular stock springs. Don't think it would have mattered if I'd been using parabolics.

I got my 109 up on two wheels going around Stanton Park here in DC. That was with Parabolics and I think there would have been more body roll with the regular springs and the wheels would have lifted sooner.

I drove Robert Davis's 88 a few years ago and I was able to peel out around corners from a dead stop. I never thought a LR could do that. Figured it would flip or something. That was also with parabolics.

Just make sure you get ones that aren't too light, and put some good shocks on it


That's good to hear, gents. The paras may be back on my consideration list... I've got to do something.

Any drawbacks? Any naysayers care to weigh in?

[SalemRover]

The ride is certainly better on Para's onroad. If you are offroad in a fully loaded vehicle then I would prefer the heavier stock springs. But if your not driving 5 peoples camping gear, food/drink and large amounts of wood in your 109 up a mountain then parabolics will be fine for you. That is the only time I was wishing for my ex-mod 1 ton springs... would have been nicer on the highway and easier up the trail. Besides that time I really like the nicer ride that the parabolics give. They do fine and imho opinion better offroad than stock springs in an unladen vehicle.

-Jason

[TeriAnn]

I too am baffled by all the contradictory information out there among all the experts (real and self-proclaimed).
I don't think I've ever called myself an expert about most anything, but I do tend to be opinionated and I write a lot.


How many people have hailed paras as the best thing that ever happened to a Land Rover while just as many people call them (at best) a waste of money that will break, sag, and plague the owner with hazards including (but not limited to) death by roll-over.
I've always liked good condition stock springs chosen for a specific vehicle weight and built up with individual sheets of ultra high density plastic sheets between each leaf. This plastic was designed for industrial use where there is heavy metal against metal sliding. I' have had a set of springs built up with the plastic for over 10 years of use and the plastic is still in very good condition. Basically what the plastic does is virtually eliminate leaf to leaf sliding friction. This makes for a much softer ride than what unmodified springs offer.

I agree stock springs don't move as well as they should because of the sliding friction and it only gets worse over time as dirt & rust increases the friction. I'm personally not a fan of stock unmodified springs.

But I haven't been a fan of parabolic springs either. I think much of that may have been to my introduction to them. Ray Woods showed me an 88 with a very early preproduction set of parabolic springs that were being developed for Rocky mountain. That vehicle had a LOT of side sway. As I remember 3 or4 Xs that of a stock sprung LR. That introduction always stuck in my mind even though there was a lot more development, testing and modifications to the design done before the springs went into production. If you look at the design, a couple leaves spaced apart will have inherently less resistance to side twisting than a bunch of leaves in solid contact with one another.

I have recently checked out a rig that is similar to mine that has parabolics underneath and learned that real production parabolics do have a lot more resistance to side sway than the early prototype springs I had tested. So I am reevaluating my conclusions. That other vehicle only seemed to have slightly less resistance to side sway as mine with stock springs and plastic sheets.

While I still feel that the best solution is properly chosen stock springs WITH sheets of plastic between the leaves, I am no longer as against parabolics as I have been. In retrospect I should not have based my opinions on early prototype springs without revisiting later production springs.

[KingSlug]

Teri Ann,

How hard is it to take apart the springs? Any tips on how? I just got a new set of springs from George at RDS, it should be a good time to do them.

Jared

[TeriAnn]

How hard is it to take apart the springs? Any tips on how? I just got a new set of springs from George at RDS, it should be a good time to do them.

There are different manufacturers of springs that build springs to the same performance & fit specs but use different construction methods. So I can not tell you how yours come apart. You may have to grind a big rivet off.

There are things called spring bolts that bolt leaves together into a single stack. The head of the spring bolt is the axle perch locating pin. First you need to locate a source for those bolts. Sorry its been a bunch of years since I got mine so I'm no help there. With bolts it is a screw on assembly.

Today I took a ride in a Dormobile with parabolics, both on road and in the back six acres of my yard. Other than being just a little softer on corners, the ride on the Dormobile with parabolics was virtually the same, both on pavement and off pavement, as the ride in my Dormobile with leaf springs that have very low friction plastic sheets between the leaves. They both bounced about the same & handled bumps about the same. I had thought the parabolics would produce a smoother ride. Also available is a 109 Park Ranger (camper conversion) with brand new stock leaf springs. The one with the unmodified brand new leaf springs rides a lot rougher than either of the two Dormobiles. And my leaf springs are about 10 years old.

[alaskajosh]

That's an interesting comparison/report, TeriAnn. Thank you.

Now what's-his-name over at what's-it-called in Olympia, WA (parts sales, restorations) says factory springs are crap (he doesn't like paras either). Something about new factory springs being made out of bad ChiCom steel maybe...? He sells his own and has a dog in the fight so to speak.

I like your plastic trick and I'd consider it seriously except now I'm a little gun-shy of factory springs too.. that coupled with the extra plastic installation time, expense, monkey business..
What should stop me from just going with some reputable paras and being done with it?
In what situations might they let me down or regret using them?

Are RM paras clearly at the top of the heap or are there others that should be considered?

Thanks all-

[scott]

...have yet to see any sort of scientific comparison of parabolic sping stability and original stability. I bet there have been many a rolled over Land Rover that had original style springs.....
Jason T.

eee gads! these things roll over?

[JimCT]

Usually they just get tired and lay over on their side for a bit....

[TedW]

I bought them a few years ago from Les at our hosts - with Old Man Emus. I heard the stories about body roll but see absolutely NO difference between the parabolics and the stock springs. Les credits the OME shocks for that. In any case, I'm down with Gunny on this one - much better ride than before. I think the ride is terrific now. Also more blood in my urine anymore.

[TeriAnn]

Now what's-his-name over at what's-it-called in Olympia, WA (parts sales, restorations) says factory springs are crap (he doesn't like paras either). Something about new factory springs being made out of bad ChiCom steel maybe...? He sells his own and has a dog in the fight so to speak.

Ah, He who must not be named but who reads this board and has been known to follow the reading up with phone calls and threats of law suits.

He who must not be named is very knowledgeable and is generally worth listening to when he speaks about technical stuff and originality. If he claims there are springs manufactured with bad steel coming out of the LR's supplier's factory I have no reason to doubt him.


I like your plastic trick and I'd consider it seriously except now I'm a little gun-shy of factory springs too.. that coupled with the extra plastic installation time, expense, monkey business..
Well you know, if you get enough monkeys and springs together one is bound to disassemble a spring pack, add the sheets of plastic and correctly reassemble them. You would just have a very large banana bill and a horrendous cleanup job afterwards.

There are different companies that make springs to Land Rover factory specs. The trick is to find out which factory is supplying the bad steel to Land Rover and which are not. If the springs are not meeting LR's specifications I suspect the problem will be corrected by Land Rover. If it is an aftermarket supplier the problem might not get corrected.



What should stop me from just going with some reputable paras and being done with it?
Nothing that I know of. Its your decision, your vehicle, your money.


In what situations might they let me down or regret using them?
While I have a strong tendency to be opinionated, I have never owned a set of Parabolics and can not answer that with any authority. My best guess is they might put you over the edge in situations where the dynamic centre of balance ventures out to the edge of your wheelbase. But that is a marginal guess. Also you may encounter increased wheel hop when climbing steep hills and your traction breaks if you do not have shocks matched to the springs.

Remember until very recently I based all my opinions about Parabolics from a single experience with early preproduction springs. That could be why one manufacturer has been trying to set me up with a set for several years. It has only been VERY recently that I've had an opportunity to test differently sprung Dormobiles side by side.


Are RM paras clearly at the top of the heap or are there others that should be considered?
Well, Ray is a good guy who does due diligence with his spring research and testing. But so is Paul and Paul started out earlier from the stock Santana design. I would image both companies make a very good well researched and tested product. I have no basis to voice any opinion on the parabolics manufactured by British Steel. I suggest researching each company and product as best you can. And don't forget whichever company you choose, be sure to use the shock that they recommend for their springs.

http://www.heystee-automotive.com (http://www.heystee-automotive.com/)

http://www.parabolicsprings.com (http://www.parabolicsprings.com/)

Some quick searching on British steel:
"Corus was formed on 6th October 1999 through the merger of British Steel and Koninklijke Hoogovens. On April 2 2007, Corus became a subsidiary of Tata Steel." If memory serves, Tata steel is a sister company of Tata Motors, one of the companies considering the purchase of Land Rover. I don't know if they still are but British Steel was/is an OEM spring supplier to Land Rover.

[sven]

Here's a site that supposedlty provides unbiased comparison between different parabolic springs: http://www.parabolicspring.com/ I found it on accident.

[jp-]

My take on it is this: Parabolic springs do for the unladen ride what stock springs do for the laden ride.

Since I drive mostly unloaded (unladen) except for the odd long camping trip, I prefer the parabolics. With the vehicles loaded, the stock springs and parabolics ride about the same.

My 88" has British Spring parabolics and the 109" has RM ones.