price quote question

[O'Brien]

Here's the deal (or maybe not a deal).

Took my rover in to a SUPER well respected shop here in southern california. they are renowned for their service and knowledge of series rovers. I wanted to have my brakes looked at, as I want professionals to deal with this important aspect of driving a rover in and around Los Angeles. Plus i just don't trust myself to do it completely perfect haha!

i'm going down to walk through it with them this afternoon, but here's my question: it doesn't look like the brakes have been touched in ten or fifteen years. There's rust flaking off of the otuside of the drums. they are reccomending replacing everything related to the brakes all around, new drums, lines, etc. over the phone they quoted me a ballpark of $2700.

is this about right including labor? I have no idea, and I want to make sure i'm not being taken for a rube. thoughts from learned rover men and women are greatly appreciated! thanks

[Bostonian1976]

that sounds very very high to me....in fact you could convert to front disc brakes for 1500 in parts alone.....

are they talking master cylinder, lines, drums...everything?

[O'Brien]

well from what i could tell from our short conversation on the phone this morning, they're talking about wanting to replace the whole system, though he didn't mention the master cylinder. i thought it was all four drums and interiors, maybe not lines, but im not sure. even factoring labor does this still sound insane?

I don't want to disparage these guys at all. they have a great reputation, and have been very nice to me. but i can't just shake the feeling that it's a little high. am i getting taken for a ride here?

[scott]

are they restoration or repair types guys? difference being the cost of making 'em work or making work and look new. my drums were sporting an rusty outer. i just replaces the shoes and springs all 4 for about $60. did feel any groves so i didn't even bother with turning the drums. my bro drives a '75 dodge power wagon, disc forward drums rear. in 30+ years he's never turn the drums or disc. if you change pads and shoes before the rivets dig in there's no need to turn which will make 'em thinner and thinner and eventually worthless

[leafsprung]

Huntington Mobile or Peters Marina Motors? Service costs a lot in LA. Rust on the outside of the drum is harmless. The odds that ALL of your drums need replacing, is probably small. But you can measure them yourself, the diameter and max wear are normally cast into the drum. Even if you were to replace everything brake related, I think you could save yourself a couple grand by doing it yourself over the price they quoted you. There isnt anything too difficult in the brakes, if a 7th grade dropout at a national brake/tire/muffler chain can do it all day, so can you.

[Giddyuprover]

If you have the $$$ to throw around like that, get the Green Bible, and all the brake hardware yourself. Once you start diving into it you will be amazed at how simple it is to work on. Remeber that the trucks were designed to be user friendly/maintained. You will save a fortune and will know exactly how your truck works and how to fix it if something does go wrong.
My 2 cents.

[O'Brien]

i appreciate all the good advice friends. I spent about an hour tonight talking to the guys over at Huntington Service Center. i've been dealing with pete and john, both of whom are super friendly, and honest to a fault. they love series rigs as much, if not more than most folks you would meet in the rovering community from what i can gather.

$2700 is for brand new everything at each wheel, drums, internals, seals etc. plus labor. master cylinder is fine, so that doesn't need work. however, they pretty much talked me out of fixing it though, so i'm not too worried about the quote anymore. he's going to try and get me a little bit more pedal by adjusting everything, but i'm leaning more towards doing it myself in little while.

they said to have the truck close to where i eventually want it to be, i will probably spend $80-100k. i think that's a little high, but i probably could stand to start out with a truck that hasn't been neglected as much as mine has been in the past.

anybody know a place where you can get the green bible for less than $100?

chime in with any do-it-yourself affirmations as well. I could use the encouragement!

[LaneRover]

My brothers Rover had sat unused in Maine for close to a year because of a leaking rear wheel cylinder. One of the guys on the forum graciously donated a used rear wheel cylinder that he had laying around. When I was home over the 4th I talked my brother through changing the cylinder and bleeding the brakes. When he was done he said, "Wow, that was easy!"

One of the best things to do is to take digital photos as you take stuff apart, it makes it much easier to put the stuff back together! Questions like, does this spring go in front of or behind the shoes? are easy to answer with a photo.

Brent

[daveb]

80 to 100k? one or both of you are being unrealistic. remember this is a british farm truck. not a bently. it is made to do work, not sit around and be polished. and even a $2700 brake job is only as good as the part it uses. it will still need adjusting, and replacing, and be subject to all the ills it suffers from now. don't think that you can solve all the LR's inherent problems just by paying someone $$$$$$$ to bolt new parts on. run, don't walk to the exit of that shop and learn to fix it yourself. you will be all the richer for it.




i appreciate all the good advice friends. I spent about an hour tonight talking to the guys over at Huntington Service Center. i've been dealing with pete and john, both of whom are super friendly, and honest to a fault. they love series rigs as much, if not more than most folks you would meet in the rovering community from what i can gather.

$2700 is for brand new everything at each wheel, drums, internals, seals etc. plus labor. master cylinder is fine, so that doesn't need work. however, they pretty much talked me out of fixing it though, so i'm not too worried about the quote anymore. he's going to try and get me a little bit more pedal by adjusting everything, but i'm leaning more towards doing it myself in little while.

they said to have the truck close to where i eventually want it to be, i will probably spend $80-100k. i think that's a little high, but i probably could stand to start out with a truck that hasn't been neglected as much as mine has been in the past.

anybody know a place where you can get the green bible for less than $100?

chime in with any do-it-yourself affirmations as well. I could use the encouragement!

[LWB109]

they said to have the truck close to where i eventually want it to be, i will probably spend $80-100k. i think that's a little high, but i probably could stand to start out with a truck that hasn't been neglected as much as mine has been in the past.


By my calculations there shouldn't be anything remaining of your original truck after spending 100k.

[O'Brien]

yeah, i think they must have been confused when i said that i wanted to be able to have it as a daily driver! i'm actually quite excited about working on it myself. that number really threw me for a loop too. i guess if i had cash like that i could buy the dalai lama's rover!

i just really wanted to get these brakes dialed in by someone who had a lot of experience, and could do it for me while i was at work. I guess as i get older im getting lazy. time to get some nice jacks and jackstands i guess. also, any leads on finding a nicely priced green bible anyone?

thanks!

[BackInA88]

both of whom are super friendly, and honest to a fault.
I hope they were going to kiss you first!!

At $2700 for the brake job they better be replacing all the lines, every piece including the backing plates and replacing all the wheel bearings. Than taking me out to dinner.:p

You can get the Green Bible on CD.
Than just print out the pages you need at the time and you don't worry about getting them greasy!:D

Doing it yourself is half the fun of owning a rig like this is getting your hands dirty.
Impress your friends with your automotive repair skills.
When they come by and see the parts spread all over the garage floor!
Then they see you driving it later.
But be careful they will be calling you everytime their cars make a new noises.

I have friends I swap tires over for in the fall and spring.
It amazes me how helpless some are when it comes to picking up a tool and unwilling to even try.
The friend that was over the other day would rather put 4 dirty tires in the back seat of his Mustang and drive them over to my house to change than just do it in his own garage?

[greenmeanie]

Well taking a very rough quick parts pick you can very easily get yourself up over $2200 buying parts from our hosts. This is, of course, assuming you have a 2.6L and not the 2.25 L which is alot cheaper on the brakes. It also assumes you are replacing everything from the backing plate to the drums on all four corners. If they are the type of place that thinks the only way to fix a truck is to put all new parts on everything and that is the path you want to take then their quotes are not stupid. Unfortunately they are telling you to build an entirely new truck which rather defeats the purpose of buying a 30yr old Landy.

For your purposes its amazing how well a part will R&R with a can on PB Blaster, a wire wheel to clean of any old rust and paint and a quick coat of POR15, Rustoleum or whatever paint is you passion.

When I first got my 101 over here I took it to a 'respected' british car garage in Tucson to get it tuned for emissions. They were also super nice but ended up telling me I had a missing problem which needed new heads, manifold and swap to SU carbs all for a tidy 5K+ so that is was 'done right'. I took it to Ernie's MG garage and for the princely sum of $135 he tuned the truck and overhauled one of the carbs. He pointed out that the other garage had thrown the carbs waaay out of balance which is why it was missing on a couple of cylinders etc. He was even happy to show me some of his tricks to help set her up.

Just saying that a good mechanic doesn't have to be expensive. Find the right guy and he will understand any problems and fix them in the most economic fashion. Experience goes a long way in understanding what a garage is offering. The 'throw bright and shiny new parts at it to fix any problem' method gets very expensive very quickly.

One of the fun things about these trucks is learning to fix and maintain them yourself. It can be invaluable to understand the systems on the truck so that you know what is making that particular noise or, more importantly, what has suddenly stopped making that noise.


Boy do I go on.

Cheers
Gregor

[O'Brien]

well friends, i'm very thankful for the DIY encouragement. i don't have any people i can talk to in person about rovers, so you are all a valuable resource for me!

greenmeanie in fact i do have the 6cyl brake set-up up front, and the regular drums in the back. i haven't had the time to dig too deeply into the history of my 109, but i'm fairly certain that it's a '67, titled in California as a '66. Also fairly certain that it was originally fitted with the rover 6cyl, but was converted to a chevy six, probably really soon after the original owner took ownership. the chevy motor is a '66, and the title history shows it's 'always' had that motor in it. I'm excited to learn more about it once i get it back from the shop. i'll check the plate and see what i can find based on the numbers there.

i was looking at the offerings from our hosts, and noticed the series IIa CD rom. I also noticed that it was 'only' compatible with windows XP and acrobat 7.0 or earlier. anyone have this CD and run it on a MAC? I don't see why it wouldn't work, but just want to throw that question out there.

i should have the rover back either tonight or tomorrow, i'll post some pictures and maybe you guys and gals can throw out some ideas.

any other suggestions for genius and cheap mechanics in the greater Los Angeles area? would be nice to learn about someone else incase i come up against something i don't know how to repair yet.

btw, you are all awesome!:thumb-up:

[leafsprung]

Finding a quality inexpensive mechanic in LA is tough. Peter at marina motors on Lincoln Blvd is a decent fellow with lots of rover expierience. Not inexpensive but maybe less than Huntington Mobile. http://www.englishcars.com I have some used manuals if you want one:

http://www.pangolin4x4.com/pangolin4x4/products/usedparts/usedparts/books/books.htm

Most of the manuals are online as PDFs as well.

[ctrover]

80-100K?!!!!They must be messing with you.You can get a great restored example for around 15k.

[jp-]

I hope they were going to kiss you first!!

At $2700 for the brake job they better be replacing all the lines, every piece including the backing plates and replacing all the wheel bearings. Then taking me out to dinner.:p

And a nightcap...good hooker...etc...


You can get the Green Bible on CD.
Than just print out the pages you need at the time and you don't worry about getting them greasy!:D

The grease adds something to it. That way when I flip to any particular page, I can say, "Yep, been here before."


Doing it yourself is half the fun of owning a rig like this is getting your hands dirty.
Impress your friends with your automotive repair skills.
When they come by and see the parts spread all over the garage floor!
Then they see you driving it later.
But be careful they will be calling you everytime their cars make a new noises.

So true! I can't tell you how many times I heard, "You'll never get that thing running..." Six months later it's, "My car is making a noise can you fix it?" "Well maybe... for $2700."

[greenmeanie]

"My car is making a noise can you fix it?"

The answer to that is "Bring it back when it stops making the noise."

[Bertha]

New to the board but pretty familiar with 109's. They are a tough truck to get a good hard pedal on. Unfortunately 2,700 is probably not out of line to have a reputable shop refurbish the entire braking system, especially on the 6cyl. If your only issue is pedal travel, then your best bet might be an adjustment to start with. I find on the 109's, when replacing the drums and shoes together, you should have the shoes shaved to meet the contour of the drum. This is what creates a lot of the problem with the pedal feel. Good luck with your truck.

[Jim-ME]

Brake work on a Rover is relatively simple to do compared to other vehicles. For the kind of money that you have been quoted to fix/replace your existing brakes everything should be gold plated with a lifetime no wearout warranty. Do yourself a big favor and do them yourself. The better you know your Rover the better off you will be in the long run and there is no better teacher than trial by error. If you make a mistake you will only do it once. Don't be afraid, buy the parts, do them yourself and the reward of doing it yourself will be beyond description. Besides you aren't alone as we will help as most of us have already been there done that. :thumb-up:
Jim

[O'Brien]

Jim-ME - thanks for the encouragement:thumb-up: Had to swear to the wife i would keep this rover for a long time, and part of that was doing the work myself. I'll probably get around to doing the brakes sometime in december, as these next couple of weeks are filled up with weddings and thanksgiving, and a quick trip out to NYC.

you can bet i will be burning up the boards with brake questions come december! at least its still warm enough in L.A. in december for me to work on it in my car port. people think it's 'cold' here when the high is in the low sixties! hahaha

[Terrys]

Bertha is not far off the mark.

Anyone whose experience is based solely on 88s probably isn't aware of the differences, but I have had plenty of both 88s and 109s. 109s are much more expensive to do brake work on. The wheel cylinders are different, expensive, and some are very difficult to get, especually so on earlier years.
NADA 109s are even more. The remote servo unit isn't available anymore, and I think kits are few and far between. XKs Unlimited used (as in NLA) to offer a generic remote servo for MK II jags, which were almost the same, and I have a brand new one on the shelf. MCs and lines are the easy part. That said, $2700 is a bit high, but the west coast always seems high to New Englanders.
Now, as for dropping 80-100K, uh, yeah, right. I have a friend in CA who bought a very nicely restored S2 109 for $18K in MA and shipped it out.
I just sold a completely rebuilt, everything new, 88 for under $12k. Many say I'm an idiot, and I won't argue, but I know what it takes to do one, I've been driving them since the late 60s.

[thixon]

Agreed on all fronts. 109's are a bit of a pain compared to 88's, but let's be honest here. Series trucks are easy to work on relative to other cars from their era. I'd much rather do a break job on a 109 than do anything on a triumph TR6. Don't even get me started on the timing belt replacement of my audi allroad.

Do the work yourself. If you don't want to shuck out for the "green bible" get the haynes manual. Its a bit more cryptic, but I successfully went through my first series, making it into a dialy driver, using only that manual. Do I lke the green bible better, lord yes, but it can be done with the cheaper haynes. If you have 2700 to throw at the truck for brakes, go ahead and convert to disks up front. You can do it, I promise.

You have a few things going for you in a series rig that you dont have in other cars. First, they're simple.....very simple. My 6 year old is learing how to work on a car by helping me with my latest project, a 66 IIA that he's named "the falcon". He can name every part of the motor, and (with my help loosening and tightening, and moving the hand crank) can adjust the valves, and replace wheel bearings/seals. Remember, he's six. These things are just giant erector sets. Next thing you have going for you is that there is plenty of room to work and see what you're working on. That helps alot. Your final advantage is the ace in the hole. There are plenty of people on this board (myself and others) who are great mechanics, and have owned many series trucks. There is no problem you can describe that we hav'nt already been through. We'll help you. Send us photos, email us questions. A series is a great car to gain mechanical skills by working on. Learn on the series. Next you'll be replacing the CV axles on the neighbors Honda!

As for the 100G's....The guy is on crack. Even by west coast standards that's a joke. You'd have to intentionally try to waste money to pull that off. I restored a 1961 fuelie vette for less than 30k plus the price of the car. That included a full rebuild of every system, paint, interior, and some frame resto.

Travis
'66 IIa 88" a.k.a. "the falcon"

[friar mike]

Man I need to rise my rate's here at my shop.

[friar mike]

I restored a 1961 fuelie vette for less than 30k plus the price of the car. That included a full rebuild of every system, paint, interior, and some frame resto.

Travis
'66 IIa 88" a.k.a. "the falcon"
30k on a vette ?:confused: car and all ? with in the last 20 years? man have I got a few things for you to restore around here. must be cheep livin down in the lower 48.

[siii8873]

I am just completing a restoration on a 73 land rover. I can't imagine spending 1/10th of 100k unless your trying to obtain an as new vehicle and are going to buy all new parts weather they are needed or not.
All parts will not need replacing many can be removed, disassembled, cleaned, seals replaced, reassembled and ready to go. Be prepared to spend ~5-10K and having everything take 3-4 times longer than you expect. This will put you in a great vehicle that you will know very well when your done.
Brakes are no big deal, quite simple. If you go to the RN catalog and price all the parts of the system it will give you a good idea of material cost. If you plan on resoring this vehicle this is a good job to do yourself.

[O'Brien]

All parts will not need replacing many can be removed, disassembled, cleaned, seals replaced, reassembled and ready to go. Be prepared to spend ~5-10K and having everything take 3-4 times longer than you expect. This will put you in a great vehicle that you will know very well when your done.


now see, that's exactly what i thought getting into this. sure, my 109's frame probably needs some attention. sure it's got some dents and will need some new panels. i'm fine with this, and what you've said above jives with all the reading, research, and questions i've asked over the last two-three years before actually buying a series. that's really why i asked my question to begin with. it just struck me as kinda off in a way that i couldn't put my finger on. granted, i am sure that the workmanship and parts are totally worth the quoted price. without a doubt those guys know every damned rivet and weld blindfolded and sleeping upside down. i'm just not 'that guy'. i'm the guy that needs a couple catalogs and a little spare time!

once again, you folks are all super. it's great to find such a wonderful and helpful community. cheers to you all and RN for being such gracious hosts:thumb-up:

[Momo]

O'Brien,

I sent you a PM, so check your inbox. I'm in SoCal.

[thixon]

30k for the resto, plus the cost of the car. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I had about 50k in it overall.

Travis

[greenmeanie]

Thixon,
What year of allroad have you got? Any mods? I'll give you that the 2.7T is like the starship enterprise compared to the series. I've done one on a friends B5S4 and my wife's allroad is about due. There now appears to be an idler pulley reliability issue with the aftermarket T-belt kits so I'm in two minds about paying an indy to do it so that I get a warranty. That's one expensive engine if the T-belt goes wrong.

It is quite odd that in my family we look on the IIA as the reliable car that evryone uses when the allroad and the 101 are down. She gets run and abused and not a whole lot of loving but she just keeps on rumbling along.

Cheers
Gregor

[thixon]

Gregor,

Its a '01, and its and auto. So, I'm always worried about the torque converter seal going, but no worries yet! Like you, I was and am worried about the idler pulley, and the hydraulic tensioner on the kit. I did the tbelt at 100K, and I'm at 107K now. If I make it to 150K, with no issues, then I'll consider the car to have done its duty. Any additional mileage will be gravy. At 150k I plan to do the belt again, and then drive it until I'm sick of it. Its a nice car, and has been relativly reliable for me.

By the way, if you ever need CV's, go to www.raxles.com. Way cheaper than OEM, better quality, and the guy is great to deal with.

As for you're IIA, I've been in the same boat before. The SIII I sold was rock solid. I drove it everywhere for 7 years with no breakdowns after I ran through it and fixed/replaced all the problem areas. I hope to get my IIA there soon! Wish me luck!

Travis

[friar mike]

30k for the resto, plus the cost of the car. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I had about 50k in it overall.

Travis
My bad didn't have my glass's on :rolleyes:

[greenmeanie]

Thixon,
I too have an 01 but mine is a 6 spd manual. I put the 710N diverters on and put H-bars underneath to correct some of its handling issues but other than that have left it alone. It's really a bit of luxury as my wife's car to counter my ideas of minamilist transport.

The axles - yup been there done that. Marty was a cool bloke. He has some experience with British cars so we spent some time talking old Land Rovers. He was fascinated by my 101.

I've just replaced the front air suspension bags using Carson at Riverside Audi for some good prices. Again its quite straight forward wrenching. It's the computers I fear but I have the fancy doohickie that allows my laptop to scan for codes.

I do feel that it demandds some of the same qualities in an owner as the old series Landies. They are great machines but you have to be a bit of a fanatic to put up with their quirks and are either a good mechanic or a rich man to afford running one.

My SIIA has become reliable after much tinkering over the years. My wife claims that it should be called a '2000 IIA after all the parts that have been replaced. She knows to never question my 101 but she is now trying to get me to forsake my old IIA for my brother's '83 110 V8 SW. I am just not sure I can put up with a modern vehicle as my daily driver:)

Cheers
Gregor

[Donnie]

Easy maybe, until you come to the bleeding part. I'd like to speak to the chap who thought that the bleeder should be on the bottom of a dual wheel cyl system....
Maybe he cast a distant view into the future & forcast the design of the Phoenix Bleeder..............cost about $300 bux American from you Snap-off dealer...........Stand it on it's head, Donnie

[Donnie]

I removed the "remote servo" I think that is what we refer to as a hydro-vac. If it is the assengineered dream that is mounted on the rite front frame and is called on to help with pedal resistance, You may have to apply a bit more foot pressure to stop, but these have large dia. drums, 2 cyls, & wide shoes on each wheel, & unless you are *5 pounds soaking wet, U should have no problem stopping..