Series III Brake Question

[cooper]

Hi All, Purchased a 1972 88 Series III and wanted to check out the brakes for road use. I removed all the drums and noticed that my front brakes have three springs and the rears have only two....Is this correct? On the front I have the top red spring from the spring post to the leading shoe (behind the adjuster) and another spring on top connecting both shoes then theres the bottom pull off spring. The rears only have the red top spring and the bottom pull off spring.

Also have the issue of the two pedal pump to the get the brakes tight.
Any advice or pictures?
Thanks, Cooper

[LaneRover]

two pedal pump is bad - but not the worst I have seen! Though there may be some air in the system there is also the possibility that it is just wayyyy out of adjustment.

Here is a link to the pics I have from when my brother and I replaced his rear brake cylinder. I will not vouch 100% that this is 100% correct, only that they work and this is how it was! Most likely it is correct and if it is not someone will correct me.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=13425&l=30d47&id=535599102

Brent

[cooper]

Thanks Brent,
My rear brakes are just as the pictures...I think someone just added the springs up front for, who knows?:confused: I'm going to remove that extra spring and see if there is a difference. I notice you are half in San Diego. I'm in Poway. What a wildfire! Also, do you have any local LR part houses in the SD area?
Cooper-

[alaskajosh]

I'm neck deep in brake issues myself.. but some things I've picked up or thought up with regards to the X2 pump:

Run the adjustment all the way out until the shoes are making firm contact with the drums. Still have to double pump? Then it's probably not adjustment. In my case I wanted to be really sure that none of the sponginess I was feeling was shoe travel. I took the drums off and ran ratchet straps around the shoes.

Also, and this tip is right out of the factory repair manual, one can clamp off the flex hoses in different combinations, testing the pedal each time, and may be able to ascertain where the air (or problem) lies.

Good luck.. I sure as hell need it on mine.

[rovertek]

its possible that your brake drums are out of spec and the pistons in the wheel cylinders have to travel too far for the shoes to make contact with the drums, also when all else fails try removing the master and bench bleeding it and reinstall ( some times there is an air bubble in the master that wont move otherwise).....

[LaneRover]

Thanks Brent,
My rear brakes are just as the pictures...I think someone just added the springs up front for, who knows?:confused: I'm going to remove that extra spring and see if there is a difference. I notice you are half in San Diego. I'm in Poway. What a wildfire! Also, do you have any local LR part houses in the SD area?
Cooper-

I would check with a manual to see whether you should have the third spring up front. If I can dig up one of my manuals and scan in a diagram I will. No local parts houses in San Diego that I know of. I will get some stuff from British Pacific as the shipping is quicker because of its location. I used to stop by their place all the time when they were in Burbank - now they are just a bit to far north to just drop by when I am in LA. At the moment I am in Maine until January after that maybe we could have a 'Day at the wrenches'.

Brent

[sayers]

I just looked up the front and rear brake repairs in my land rover repair operation manual for the series three 88 and they show only two springs for both the front and rear, I have a 74 88.

[sayers]

Yo can also get on RN home page and go over to the tech page , scroll down and there is a section on replacing 10" brakes with a nice photo.

[TSR53]

Hope this helps.

http://www.roversnorth.com/store/t-technicalinfotipsbrakeshoe.aspx

Series Land Rover - 10" Brake Shoe Installation

http://www.roversnorth.com/web/images/brakeshoe.gif

Probably the most common repair that a Series Land Rover owner will undertake is replacing the brakes. Most of the questions we answer on the phone here at Rovers North are about the correct way to replace brakes. The following is a description for replacing the 10" style brakes found on short wheel base Land Rovers built before 1980.
Once the vehicle has been jacked up and is securely resting on jack stands and the road wheel removed, the brake drum is exposed. Three screws, and maybe some rust, are all that hold the drum in place. If these screws have not been removed in quite a while they will probably require the use of a hammer and chisel or a hand impact driver to loosen them. Once these are removed and the adjuster on the backing plate is slackened the drum is ready to be removed. Usually this requires the assistance of a 3/8" coarse threaded bolt that is screwed into the small hole on the face of the brake drum. This will pry the drum away from the hub. Be careful not to turn the bolt too far causing the drum to crack. Note: You might want to use a high-tensile bolt here, as a hardware grade bolt may shed its threads rather than pop the drum loose. Grade-8 is recommended, typically - it will retain its threads, and you won't torque it hard enough to break it - the drum will pop off first.
Now that the drum is removed, inspect the shoes to see if they have been contaminated with hub bearing grease or oil. If so, the hub will have to be removed and the seal and race replaced. Likewise, the wheel cylinder will need to be rebuilt if the shoes show signs of brake fluid contamination.
Remove the two bolts holding the retaining ring onto the bottom of the trailing shoe (#4). Often there is a lock tab that needs to be bent down in order to get a wrench on these bolts. Using a pry bar or vise grips, carefully lever out the bottom of the trailing shoe to clear the pivot post at the bottom of the backing plate. Remove the shoe and repeat to remove the leading shoe.
Inspect the dust boots (#6) on the wheel cylinder. If the cylinder is leaking there will be an accumulation of fluid in the dust boots and the cylinder will need to be rebuilt or replaced. Also check that the pistons move easily inside the cylinder. Clean the backing plate and inspect the adjuster to make sure it rotates freely and doesn't have any spots that are worn flat on its outer edge. Also inspect the pivot bracket at the base of the plate to insure that it is not loose on the plate.
When replacing the shoes pair up a leading shoe with a trailing shoe. The leading shoes are the ones with the posts that face the backing plate and ride on the adjuster cams. The trailing shoes have no posts. Apply a bit of grease (preferably white lithium assembly grease) to the top and bottom of each shoe where they come in contact with the cylinder pistons and the bottom pivot bracket. Also apply some grease to the edge of the adjuster cam and to the two points on the backing plate that come in contact with the shoes. Do not allow any grease to get on the brake linings!
After matching the sets of new shoes, connect the bottom spring (black one) between the two shoes (#5). The spring goes on the inside or backing plate side of the shoes. Holding the set of shoes up, place the leading shoe into position. Carefully lever the trailing shoe into position. Connect the top spring (red one) between the post on the leading shoe and the post on the opposite side of the backing plate (#3). This spring does not connect to the trailing shoe. The spring must be behind and not interfere with the adjuster cam. Install the retaining ring to the trailing shoe. These bolts are designed to tap into the unthreaded holes but starting them is easier if a 1/4"x20 tap is used on the holes first.
Clean out the brake drum. Remove any dust, rust, oil or grease from the inside surface. Inspect the inside face that comes in contact with the shoes. If this is scored it will have to be resurfaced or replaced. 10" brake drums can be turned to a maximum of 10 1/16". Back off the adjuster cam and compress the top of the shoes into the wheel cylinder and install the drum. Apply a never-seize product to the drum screws and install. Gently tapping the face of the drum with a hammer will help to get these screws tight.
Adjust the adjuster cam. These should be turned to the point where they can't be turned any further then backed off a couple of notches so the drum turns freely. If the adjuster turns all the way around then either the post is not making contact with the cam or the drum has been turned out too far and will need to be replaced.
Test drive the Land Rover once all the brakes have been checked and adjusted. The Land Rover should brake smoothly without pulling to one side and without any shudder or pulsing in the pedal. Squeal is common with new shoes and should dissipate as the shoes break into the drums. After test driving, recheck the brake adjustment and enjoy the satisfaction of completing an important part of your Land Rover's maintenance.

[sayers]

TSR53, you the man :thumb-up:

[TSR53]

TSR53, you the man :thumb-up:
Thanks - naa don't think anything of it, working on a Sunday for yaa guys...

[cooper]

Thank you all for the great Info!!:thumb-up:

TSR53, the pictures and description really helped, yep, looks like the previous owner thought 3 springs were better than the original 2.
I replaced two wheel cylinders and rebuild the other two. The master is a mess, going to replace... all three flex lines were frayed but not leaking, going to replace. And new shoes all around. Ordered the master and the rest of the parts today. New brake fluid, Dot 4 or 5?
May need addition help...when parts arrive.

Rovertek, you mention bench bleeding the master?

Thanks again and I'll post pictures soon. Cooper

[TSR53]

Thank you all for the great Info!!:thumb-up: ... New brake fluid, Dot 4 or 5?
I'll try to help all I can. I would recommend to use this brake fluid...
http://www.roversnorth.com/store/images/Product/medium/GBF4100.jpg
Can be had through us of course.
http://www.roversnorth.com/store/p-3900-girling-brake-fluid-1-lt.aspx

[sayers]

cooper, you might think about getting a land rover repair manual, this is the one that comes straight from the land rover factory. RN has them and it has helped me in my work on my 88.

[cooper]

Will Do on the manual. Hoping one for the holidays. Hint, Hint, (wife please read)....She thinks I'm crazy loving these rovers. One really does get obsessed! I did.