Rover Roookie Looking For Advice

[bullstanky]

Despite what would probably be considered my better judgement, I recently joined the club by purchasing a diesel '64 IIA 109 off of ebay

Click here if you want to give her a look and tell me I paid to much....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=019&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=290179834411&rd=1

The frame and bulkhead are 95% rust free and the engine runs strong. When the rover was advertised, it was listed as having a transmission leak. Finding, through a little research, that leaks on this vintage of rovers are quite common, I didn't pay it much attention and figured a new seal might be the answer. The seller said it had leaked for the year he had it. He had the fluids changed by a rover shop about 6 mths into owning it, and it continued to leak - maybe two quarter sized dots on the driveway after each use. He sugested that it was no big deal - maybe all the transmission needed was a heavier weight fluid, or to just add a little extra fluid every now and then.

I've had the rover for 3 weeks and drove it 6 or 7 times, each for a short 3-5 mile trip. Keeping an eye on the leak, I noticed that it leaked once or twice (a quarter size or so) the first 2-3 times I drove it when it was warm outside. The next 2-3 times (when it was cooler outside) there was no leak. Looking underneath, it is very oily under the flywheel, but the main drips seem to be on the pan for the transfer case. Not being a huge drip, I just drove the rover and hoped it was just a "leak when warm" kind of deal.

I noticed on the 2nd to last drive I took that when I was doing full speed in 4th gear to climb a large hill (w/ everyone else flying by me at 65mph) it smelled like something was burning (clutch?) and if I let off of the gas for a second, the transmission would pop out of 4th and into neutral, and I might have to clutch once or twice to get the engine reving again. The stick would go into 4th with the clutch in, but then didn't rev up to speed, so I had to clutch again to get the engine going to keep me moving (losing precious momentum while those behing me moved over to pass).

The last time I drove the rover it did this again - smelled like clutch burning - popped out of 4th when I let off the gas - and then took a clutch or two to get going again. Then, all of the sudden it got hard to shift into 1st and 2nd (like the clutch wasn't engaging) and then I couldn't get the trans out of gear.

I parked for a while and noticed that with the engine off, I could pull it out of gear and easily move between all of the gears. I turned the engine on, put it in reverse and backed up a little, but it stalled. I pulled the trans out of gear, turned the engine back on, and with the clutch pushed in, was unable to get into any of the 4 forward gears. It would go into reverse, but stalled as soon as I got there (with the clutch pedal in).

I have noticed that there is fluid leaking where the clutch slave unit enters the bell housing and am hoping that is the culprit - is this kind of behavior consistent with a worn out slave unit (the master cylinder looks fine - i haven't checked the fluid level yet, but am going to that this afternoon)?

Could this be the clutch going out as well as the slave unit? Could this somehow be the result of low fluid levels b/c of leaks from the transmission or transfer case - how do I check those levels/where are the fills? I've got a fairey OD unit coming in the mail, but need to figure this out first - any ideas? Any good diagnostic tips?

[friar mike]

Thats a 1964:confused: looks more like a 1974.

[sven]

Thats a 1964:confused: looks more like a 1974.

He's right. Thats a series III :sly:

[bullstanky]

The title says '64, it has 2 wiper motors and a plaque stating negative earth, and definitely no synchros on 1st and 2nd, so I assume '64 is correct, and that the lights were moved out to the fenders by a previous owner. What is the best way to know for sure - the vin is 25106443B?

[bullstanky]

I also forgot to mention that there is a bit of a high pitched sqeal at higher rpms in all gears - any ideas?

[friar mike]

The title says '64, it has 2 wiper motors and a plaque stating negative earth, and definitely no synchros on 1st and 2nd, so I assume '64 is correct, and that the lights were moved out to the fenders by a previous owner. What is the best way to know for sure - the vin is 25106443B?
The dash is also SIII the engine seems to be 2.5 maybe? sounds like franken rover. vin can be changed eazy.

[LaneRover]

Is the wading plug for the bellhousing in? If it is then someone could have been trying to hide a bigger leak - lie on a Rover that I bought a few years ago.

The wading plug should be at the front of the transmission bellhousing. If there is just a threaded hole there then it is not in. If there is a 'bolt' with a square top there then the wading plug is in. If it is in take it out - but I would recommend getting a pan to catch the bunch of oil that is going to come out. I am guessing that this is it because clutch fluid would not be leaking 'out'from the bellhousing as there is nothing hydraulic inside. The clutch slave cylinder sits outside of the bell housing.

If oil comes out is it thick like 90 weight Transmission oil or thin like 10/40 motor oil? If thin I would check the oil level of your engine and you could have a leak in your rear main seal. If it is transmission oil then you have a leak where the mainshaft goes into the innards of the trannie. Either way if oil comes out of the bellhousing than your clutch is now soaked in oil.

Best of luck!

Brent

[Terrys]

2.5? 2.5 what? That isn't a Land Rover engine, and it sure looks like a series 3, inside and out.

Dimes to donuts that truck came from Oz.

[Daurie]

If you can't get it into gear (which it sounds like you can't) then I'd suspect the slave cyl. or the clutch lining breaking apart. (could explain the squealing) The leak could be worse than it seems as it may only leak as you release the clutch.

If you can get it into gear try this: at a standstill with the engine running, engage parking brake, put it in 4th, give it a little gas and let up on the clutch. If you have a good healthy clutch it will kill the engine right away. If it runs on seeming to pull a load on the engine then the clutch is bad.

What confused me is why you were slowing down at top speed. (unless you were on a grade) Some of what you say indicates a slipping clutch and some of what you say indicates a bad slave cyl.


I looked at that truck while it was up for bid. Hopefully you will get it sorted out. Let us know of the findings as far as year and etc. It has all the trimmings of a S3! Maybe someone who knows more will look at the pictures and be able to spot any indicators on the underside that would identify it as a 64.

Good luck!

[friar mike]

2.5? 2.5 what? That isn't a Land Rover engine, and it sure looks like a series 3, inside and out.

Dimes to donuts that truck came from Oz.
yep thats what I mean just a guess. My 2.5 looks diffrent then this engine but I have seen a few diffrent looking 2.5 maybe a Perkins?:confused:

[giorgio]

Well, I will have to admit that it is a bit of a puzzler to me. I have a 1973 Series III 88, and an 1968 Series IIA 109.

Your dash, running lights, grill, seat cushions, etc. are identical to my Series III.

My Series IIA has smaller, glass lenses on the running lights.

It looks like a nice example of the breed. I hope you get it all sorted out. I do not believe that there is a single one that does not have a few "issues" that need to be worked out.

Hope that you enjoy your new find!

Giorgio

[Terrys]

yep thats what I mean just a guess. My 2.5 looks diffrent then this engine but I have seen a few diffrent looking 2.5 maybe a Perkins?:confused:
It could be a Perkins, pump looks right. Maybe a 4-108 or 4-236. The Aussies love their Roo bars (I guess they have more Roos than Bulls) And, while this is certainly no measure, I have seen that color, also flat, on other Oz trucks. They have several engines they're fond of, and Holden seems to be a favorite. I don't know if there are any on this board from Oz, but there are a lot over on Land Rovers Only. Ask one of them.

[bullstanky]

Thanks to all for the advice. By all accounts it is a series III - I'm going to climb underneath the first time I get a chance and see if I can't pull some serial #'s off of the engine and transmission.

It does seem like my clutch is both slipping and not engaging/disengaging properly. There is definitely fluid leaking right where the slave cylinder enters the bellhousing - the fluid is clearish-yellow and seems lighter than engine oil or transmission oil - this would be the hydraulic fluid, right? This looks like the same stuff that is dripping from the nuts on the transfer case oil pan.

The stuff where the engine meets the trans is dirty black burned up engine oil, most likely sneaking past the rear main seal.

I'll check the wading plug if I can find it, the fluid level in the clutch master cylinder, test the slave, and report back - hopefully its just a leak of some kind in the hydraulic system.

[BackInA88]

Don't rule out the oil pan gasket as the source of your leak.
I thought mine was the rear main, lucky I did the oil pan first.:thumb-up:

[SHORLAND]

Can you take pictures as well? Thanks.

[bullstanky]

Can you take pictures as well? Thanks.

I'll take some pics over the weekend/holiday to send along, as I have some questions that might be best answered by someone who knows what they are looking at/talking about.

I took a few minutes to poke around under the hood last night. Much to my suprise, after wiping the oil off of the valve cover, there was a Ford logo staring back at me. I am yet to find a serial number or any other markings, so it could be a ford valve cover on another brand of engine, or it is a Ford of some kind - possibly out of a tractor (can't think of any other ford model that would have a 4 cylinder diesel)?

I haven't had time yet to mess with the clutch/slave unit/transmission, but I did stick a chopstick into the top of the master cylinder, and it came out dry. I'm going to cross my fingers and hope that a rebuilt slave and some hyrdaulic fluid get me back on track.

[SHORLAND]

Your clutch might be toast as well. Not sure what it would be so when you pull it (if you need to) make sure you keep EVERYTHING! Thia may be the only way to get a new one.

[Terrys]

Much to my suprise, after wiping the oil off of the valve cover, there was a Ford logo staring back at me.

There are loads of Ford diesels made overseas. Ford has had a huge presence in the UK for 50 years. saying Ford on it could mean it was from an older transit Van, a popular conversion done in the UK and elsewhere.

[greenmeanie]

Useless piece of barely related info:

The 08 Defender is powered by a Ford tranny van engine.

[Daurie]

Useless piece of barely related info:

The 08 Defender is powered by a Ford tranny van engine.

Interesting. Word is Ford will not be using International engines much longer. '08 / '09 They are or already have developed their own diesel engine. I wonder if this is the engine or if it will be a powerstroke variant.

I'm not too pleased with ford at the moment as I am a Ford fan but hate that the 7.3 is gone and was replaced by the POS 6.0 and now the 6.4 which looks like it will only be in 2 year model vehicles and the who knows what!

[bullstanky]

I'll take some pics over the weekend/holiday to send along, as I have some questions that might be best answered by someone who knows what they are looking at/talking about.
.

I filled the clutch master cylinder with fuid today, and voila, it returned to clutching w/o a problem. Looks like I'll just need to rebuild the slave unit.

[Terrys]

Useless piece of barely related info:

The 08 Defender is powered by a Ford tranny van engine.
Only thing I don't like about the '08 is the 'power bulge, but everything else is beautiful. After looking at that tired dash for 37 years, it was time for a facelift.

The newest Transit Van goes like snot, and that engine is well sorted, So it ought to be great in the Defender, It sure beats the TD5 in all aspects.
New LN series still use Brazil nuts. Great engines

[bullstanky]

I filled the clutch master cylinder with fuid today, and voila, it returned to clutching w/o a problem. Looks like I'll just need to rebuild the slave unit.

I ordered a slave cylinder rebuild kit from RN that arrived today.
Attached are pics of the leaking slave unit and the mysterious looking square hole at the back of where the slave enters the bellhousing. Anyone seen something like this before?

Anybody every removed and or rebuild a clutch slave unit like this before? Any tips would be appreciated!

[Jeff Aronson]

Well, the photos show you have a "bitsa," as they call it in the UK - a bit of this and a bit of that. As for your engine, know that the diesel option in the US would have been nearly impossible in a 109" II-A. Rover North America knew that the Rover was underpowered for this market; they would have been very reluctant to order a Rover diesel that could barely push an 88" out of the way, let alone a 109".

The three door hardtop that you have is a common to the military models, and your dash is definitely a Series III dash top. You have a mix of of Series II-A grill and Series IIII headlight pods on the fenders.

As to your clutch and transmission issues, popping out of 4th gear when you let up on the gas suddenly is a synchromesh issue inside the transmission. You can live with it for a long time, but it will require rebuilding the transmission one day.

If you can't shift, make certain first that you have gear oil in the transmission and the transfer case. There is a plug you can unscrew with a 1/2" wrench on the driver's side of the transmission. Gear oil should run out when you remove it. If not, stick your finger inside. If it comes out dry, you need to add 89/90W gear oil. The plug for the transfer case is on the back of the case, just in front of the emergency brake drum and the rear propshaft. When you unscrew it with the same wrench, gear oil should run out. If not, fill them both up.

Then try your clutch again.

If it still doesn't work, if you cannot get into gear with the car running, then look for a hydraulic leak at the slave cylinder. Check the level of hydraulic fluid in the clutch cylinder. With someone pressing down on the clutch pedal, see if you can see the short rod move. If not, the slave might not be working. It's not uncommon to replace them nor is it that difficult. You could try bleeding it first. Make certain the fluid level is high, and then have someone depress the pedal. Open up the bleeder - if you have a genuine II-A, you'll find a rubber plug on the transmission tunnel, passenger's side, up near the bulkhead. The bleeder screw is behind the plug. You'll need a 7/16" wrench. When the pedal is depressed, open the bleeder, let fluid and bubbles run out, and then close it. Only then can your assistant let up on the pedal. It will take a few pumps like this to accomplish a bleed. If you're lucky, that will help.

The clutch slippage [pushing down on the accelerator seems to increase the rpm but not the actual speed] is usually a problem with oil seeping onto the clutch. The wading plug helps here but if the disc is soaked, nothing will improve it. You'll need to replace the clutch and find the source of the leak.

Hope this helps you understand the dimensions of the issue.

Jeff