kinetic energy recovery rope or winch?

[chester rides again]

so KERR is about 1/10 the price of a winch, but am i better off getting the winch instead? searching on the net i've seen some bad examples of a KERR failure (mostly truck parts). Or do I say the heck with both and just the least expensive option of soft straps?

What is more useful? Thinking back to the 'Gods must be crazy' movie, makes me want the winch even more.

I'm not doing serious off roading, heck, i'm probably not doing much off roading at all. And I certainly don't want the KERR/Winch allowing me to get into dangerous situations.

Jeff

[leafsprung]

Maybe Im missing something. You cant recover yourself with a KERR. :confused: Im not sure how you can compare the two. A KERR is just a fancy strap . . . .

Other self recovery tools:

-come along/more power puller
-tirfor/blackrat
-highlift

[galen216]

I'd like to see the references you are writing about that KERR's have caused vehicle damage. Kinetic rope is so much better than a normal strap as there is no "snap" in the pull. I've pulled and been pulled by them and it is a great tool.

But like Ike said, it's apples and oranges.

[chester rides again]

http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/Driving%20techniques/Broken_strap.jpg

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEtuO-Mh9Lg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEtuO-Mh9Lg)

I'm not saying that their dangerous, these are just a few images I saw.

Now back to the question. I'm refering more to recovering others as I understand that KERR isn't for self recovery. A winch will recover self/others so perhaps it is the best to start out with?

The come-along is just a simple winch in my eyes:sly:

I've got the hi-lift.

[yorker]

This is kind of like asking "should I wear shoes or pants?" If you can't afford a good winch maybe a Tirfor or something would be in order- however you should be able to find a good used winch for a good price. I think I paid $150 for a used Warn 8274. Keep looking in www.Wantaddigest.com

[chester rides again]

sometimes i wear my shoes without pants:eek:

so are you saying that i should get both?

i was just wondering if i need both, or if one would do. i don't see the point of a KERR if i'm going to need/want a winch once summer rolls around. however, if i NEED both, then so be it. if i can save myself the price of the KERR and just put it towards the winch then all the better.

maybe i should have asked - do you have both?

[greenmeanie]

The best advice I havce is that no matter what you buy make sure you understand correct, safe recovery methods with that kit BEFORE you go.

If you don't four wheel much then the cheapest form of recovery equipment is to make sure you go with someone else who is well equipped.

I know this sounds facetious but I have always been told never four wheel alone and in every group I've ever encountered there is always someone who is the kit monster who is just dying (poor use of words?) to use it.

My most useful piece of recovery kit on those occasions I have been out exploring on my own has been a good shovel.

Cheers
Gregor

[leafsprung]

Seems like you have a handle on what they do, you can probably decide which you need

[jbb94952]

Have you though about a winch kit to use with your hi lift? That, some straps, and a Pull Pal work pretty well for me. Lot of work though.

[Jeff Aronson]

The adivice given already is quite good. If you're new to off roading, you should travel with another Rover until you learn your Rover's capabilities. If your companion does not have a winch, you need to be certain that you have a flat strap or a KERR; either way, the companion vehicle must have strong attachment points and your car needs them too.

The advantage of a KERR is that the thrust of pulling you out is magnified by the expanding/contracting rope. The flat strap has more give than a chain, but not to the point where the strap is actually assisting with the recovery. The KERR is quite amazing to see in action.

If you must travel alone, or want to be more self sufficient, get a high lift, a length of chain and a strap, and some shackles [you'll need them anyway]. Most of the time, the high lift can either lift you out of a problem [high centering] or move you a short distance. A comealong won't lift a wheel out of a hole or deep rut, but it also does not require a major installation job.

A winch kit is a great accessory to a car, but it's not essential for entertaining off roading or even expeditions. And as noted, at every Land Rover event there's someone with a winch to help someone like me who cannot afford to outfit his Rovers with a winch :).

Jeff

[leafsprung]

thrust of pulling you out is magnified by the expanding/contracting rope

how can a spring release more energy than it stores?

[LaneRover]

how can a spring release more energy than it stores?

If I understand the kinetic energy recovery correctly when the 'spring' is releasing its stored energy the unstuck truck is still pulling. Thus at peak pull you would definitely be pulling with more energy than just a pull with a static line. It is not that the kinetic rope thingy is releasing more than energy than was put into it but the combo of releasing the stored energy while still pulling.

Brent

OR maybe they ARE magic - but only if a unicorn is pulling....

[leafsprung]

Exactly

[scott]

i've used both before. wish we video taped it. my iia stuck in peanut butter conssistancy mud up over the floor boards. a heep w/his winch cable doulbed backed hook to me. a f250 with a kenetic hooked to the jeep. big error was the pulley for doubling back the winch cable was secured to my ball hitch. snap the ball off and sent it flying over the jeep 40 feet behind me, over the f250 20 feet behind the jeep and never again to be seen

[JimCT]

Recovery points , recovery points, recovery points......those are what usually become fatal missles when they fail. If you dont have any really good ones wrap a big chain around your frame and attach to that. Trailer hitches are a no no unless the pintle type. And the bumper in the front isn't strong enough either. Safety first.

[scott]

Recovery points , recovery points, recovery points......those are what usually become fatal missles when they fail. If you dont have any really good ones wrap a big chain around your frame and attach to that. Trailer hitches are a no no unless the pintle type. And the bumper in the front isn't strong enough either. Safety first.

duh! i know that now. i just thank god that that 2" ball went high. afterwards i looped a tow strap through the pto hole in the rear crossmember

[chester rides again]

ok, so to end this thread, towing and self-recovery - moving from "must have" to optional:

Shovel
High-lift or other pulling device
Tow strap 3" wide, 25,000 lb rated or greater, lenght ???
3/4" shackles - 3 or more
KERR of suitable size 7/8" or greater
winch (wire or synthetic line, with synthetic more desirable)and obviously the knowledge to properly use any or all of the above in a safe and responsible manner.

[scott]

ok, so to end this thread, towing and self-recovery - moving from "must have" to optional:

Shovel
High-lift or other pulling device
Tow strap 3" wide, 25,000 lb rated or greater, lenght ???
3/4" shackles - 3 or more
KERR of suitable size 7/8" or greater
winch (wire or synthetic line, with synthetic more desirable)and obviously the knowledge to properly use any or all of the above in a safe and responsible manner.

ches

if your as daft as i you might want to add...a friend with turbine powered tracked vehicle

[greenmeanie]

Meh,
Turbine power is a dead end in the evolution of tracked combat vehicles. Diesels give just as much power, are far more economic in this role, are less sensitive to contaminents in the air they breathe and are much more predictable in their failure. (A tank without mobility is just a pillbox and turbines convert from go to scrap in an instant.)

Watch the next generation of US AFV's and they are all going diesel or hybrid using some form of diesel.

Anyway if you get stuck the friend you REALLY want has an M88 sitting in the yard.

Cheers
Gregor

[thixon]

No recovery point is fool proof. You can break you're frame using a KERR. Ask me how I know.

[scott]

No recovery point is fool proof. You can break you're frame using a KERR. Ask me how I know.

if it's mud, i suggest don't be lazy, use a shovel to minimize the forces on all points, on all vehicles. moving half a ton one shovel full at a time beats bent crossmember, busted cables and the surprize projectiles. after launching a 2" chromed ball at my buddy i got out and dug for a few minutes. i called it my penance for being stupid

[thixon]

Agreed on digging. We've all been there, some of us (like me) have to learn the hard way. In the afore mentionted case, my haste to get unstuck resulted in a bill for a new frame, and the time it took to do the frame swap. Sure was fun to do the swap though!

[chester rides again]

thanks for everyones input. now i just have to find a good place to begin getting this stuff.

jeff

[leafsprung]

Well mounted recovery points wont damage your frame. A winch should stall or a vehicle should fail to pull you out LONG before the point fails. I have never had a recovery point fail . . .ever. I cannot even imagine a recovery point failure that would require a frame to be replaced unless the frame was junk to begin with.

-recovery points are only as strong as what they are mounted to, rusty frame horns and rear crossmembers do not make good places to mount recovery points
-use closed rigging; open hooks and tow balls are a big nono
-use straps and shackles rated well in excess of any possible load you plan to place on them
-keep straps and sythetic lines in good condition.


Quality recovery gear and rigging is far cheaper than even one trip to the hospital . . .

[greenmeanie]

Quality recovery gear and rigging is far cheaper than even one trip to the hospital . . .

Ah yes, but pain is a great educator.


Just kidding but it seems to be the way some people learn. It always amazes me watching group recovery. Everything from using a winch with a wire rope that is rusted and kinked hooked to whatever happens to be convenient to the usual band of gawkers hanging around in the danger zone with a Bud Lite in hand etc.

The other thing I was taught was to always use a short strap to mount to the recovery points on the stuck vehicle. The pull can then be applied to this strap which will spread the load on the chassis thus greatly reducing the possiblity for damage.

Cheers
Gregor

[yorker]

thanks for everyones input. now i just have to find a good place to begin getting this stuff.

jeff

Jeff,

Join a reputable club and ride along with them for a while- that will give you a great idea of what to buy and from where. :thumb-up:

I'd suggest you join ours but it is in Central New York and that is perhaps too far for you to drive to go trail riding.

[chester rides again]

Yorker,

Thanks for the PM's. I'm probably alot closer to Ottawa Valley Land Rovers as I sit 1 hr. south of Montreal.

I think Bob and I are going to form our own club...North Country Rovers

Jeff