Broken Down

[PH4]

Just had the pleasure of spending 2 1/2 hours on side of road. Was clipping along at a good pace (60 mph) and all of a sudden sounded like something metal came loose in the engine. Louder upon deaccerlation. Idles fine. At first I thought maybe fan was hitting fan cover but no such luck. Steady white smoke out of exhaust. Just had head gasket replaced last month. Any thoughts? Metal hitting metal sound.

[O'Brien]

you ran over and crushed a jeep?
just kidding man:D

i'm sure the wunderkinds will chime in soon with their thoughts:thumb-up:

[ChrisB]

I am a shade-tree mechanic at best, but I had a similar problem recently in my IIA. Metal on metal sound coming from the radiator/shroud area that was erratic, but occurred regularly. The engine idled fine, but lost power on acceleration, esp. uphill, and the rattling sound got worse with acceleration.

It turned out that cylinder #1 was not firing and the spark plug was coated in fresh oil. After removing the valve cover, we discovered that the rocker arm was out of place, as the push rod was not contacting the rocker arm.

This accounted for the two problems. First, the "rattling" noise was from the rocker arm/push rod problem. #1 is closest to the fan, thus my (mistaken) belief that the noise was coming from the fan belt/shroud area. Second, the loss of power was from cylinder #1 not firing. Also, the accelerator linkage needed adjustment.

Good luck...

[enovey]

Have you checked the oil? White smoke out the pipe usually means water/condensation burning off unlike blue smoke which is usually oil. I would check your oil now to make sure whatever let go didn't lead to a crack where the water jacket has sprung a leak into the engine.
Sorry for the ramble, just trying to get an idea of where you are at...

[PH4]

checked oil it is clear and plenty of it. Very well may be cylinder #1. Whatever it is did not sound cheap.

[I Leak Oil]

If you can't see anything obvious then take off the valve cover and check the rocker arms, shafts, pushrods, springs, etc. White smoke is usually water burning off. Maybe the head gasket went again.
Jason T.

[Jeff Aronson]

Over the 18 years I've owned a Series II-A, my driving has been interrupted by a wide range of noises! Let me remember some of my engine issues.

You say that the engine runs ok at idle. Are you seeing the white smoke at idle, too? Is the noise similar regardless of speed?

If you're losing power on acceleration, then you may have broken a piston ring. That noise usually sounds like bells ringing. I've also had a valve burn out which made the engine run noisy yet idle ok. It certainly made the car lose power, too. Is the car running hot? A failing water pump makes a lot of noise, too. I've also had some carbon deposit break off in a cylinder and bang away with every compression stroke - pretty frightening. Marvel Mystery Oil took care of it almost immediately.

The suggestions made above are quite sound ones. At least you'll know the condition of the top of the engine.

Good luck!

Jeff

[PH4]

Thanks Jeff. It definitely sounds like someone put a bunch of pennies in a soup can and shakes them. It starts right up and tends to make more noise after you lift off the throttle. I was praying it was the fan hitting the fan shroud but no such luck. I spoke to Les while I was on the side of the road and he suggested taking connection off each spark plug one by one and see if that what stop it and identify if problem with a particular cylinder but no such luck.

[Daurie]

Pull the plugs and see how they look. Pull the valve cover and check the rockers. Both of those are simple jobs. You could also bring each piston up to TDC and fish around through the plug hole with a telescoping magnet and see what you bring up. :D Plus while youre turning over the engine slowly you could feel and listen for anthing out of the ordinary such as grinding. With an assistant and the plugs out you may be able to narrow it down to which hole is the offending one.

[Momo]

Great suggestions so far... just to put a little more detail on this one...like Chris I had a similar problem. Overheating (crud plugged radiator) was the root cause.

Was your head retorqued? Sounds like you may have blown the gasket again (white smoke). Check the coolant level, if it's dropped you are sure to have a blown head gasket, and you may not necessarily have oil in the radiator. And check the exhaust too for coolant smell.

Also, it may have gotten hot causing a stuck valve. If the valve sticks (down), the rocker arms will continue to cycle, and on the next cycle, the affected rocker will travel downward and having mostly lost contact with the valve stem end, you'll be getting the banging sound. Like Chris said, the rocker can move side to side around the valve stem and smack it during its travel. Not sure if you'd have valve crash with the piston crown, but I suspect not, that would be LOUD.

Pull the valve cover first. A thrown rocker should be obvious. Also check to see the locknuts on all rocker arm assemblies are tight- if one has backed off you could have excessive play causing the rocker to knock the valve stem on each revolution. Check the rocker assembly bolts for proper tightness- it could be moving if they are loose. Also look for a bent valve stem, and if you're ambitious, a bent pushrod. Checking for a bent pushrod will require removing the rocker assembly but that's pretty easy. If you see nothing out of place, fire it up with the valve cover off and watch the rockers/valve train. Once the motor is spinning you will see any obvious faults. But do so at your own risk...

Could also be a burnt valve. Check for a varnished valve indicating higher heat on that valve- like an oiled saucepan you got too hot. The valves and rockers should all be a satin grey color on a newly rebuilt or good condition head with regular oil changes during its service life.

Who replaced your head gasket? They may have screwed up in reassembly and if so they ought to pay for this one.

[PH4]

It may be my fault. My mechanic was pushing me to get a new radiator but it being the winter I was trying to get by for awhile. I was diligent in watching the temp. guage and it never registered over the middle. Has anyone had trouble with stock temp guage in instrument cluster? Any suggestions on where to get best quality/price radiator? I always try and get parts from our hosts because of exceptional service but $500 is more than I can put into a radiator. In addition, when climbing steep grade at 50mph it startled to knock under full throttle a month before breakdown. Thought the timing just off but maybe hint of something else?

I really need this motor to be reliable as it is my daily driver. I had to attend a meeting by phone yesterday because of the break down which was not good. I enjoy driving it so want to be able to take on 300+ mile trips. A new engine may solve problem but just looked at new one from RN and it is over $5k. Because of my work schedule I only have limited time to turn a spanner which means minor repairs. Maybe an overdrive will take some of stress off engine but I never push over 60mph and usually only 55mph. Lot of babble on my part but any advice appreciated.

[Tim Smith]

It may be my fault. My mechanic was pushing me to get a new radiator but it being the winter I was trying to get by for awhile. I was diligent in watching the temp. guage and it never registered over the middle. Has anyone had trouble with stock temp guage in instrument cluster? Any suggestions on where to get best quality/price radiator? I always try and get parts from our hosts because of exceptional service but $500 is more than I can put into a radiator. In addition, when climbing steep grade at 50mph it startled to knock under full throttle a month before breakdown. Thought the timing just off but maybe hint of something else?

I really need this motor to be reliable as it is my daily driver. I had to attend a meeting by phone yesterday because of the break down which was not good. I enjoy driving it so want to be able to take on 300+ mile trips. A new engine may solve problem but just looked at new one from RN and it is over $5k. Because of my work schedule I only have limited time to turn a spanner which means minor repairs. Maybe an overdrive will take some of stress off engine but I never push over 60mph and usually only 55mph. Lot of babble on my part but any advice appreciated.

PH4,
It sounds like you are getting overly worried about this. I think the advice put up earlier is all very good. I doubt that you melted your engine into junk so lets not start thinking about big bill items like that yet, shall we. ;)

Personally I suspect the valve train and that's really pretty easy to check. If you were in my neighborhood, I'd stop by and check it for you. It would take all of 10-15 minutes to check.

As an aside, why does your mechanic want you to replace your radiator? Is it leaking beyond repair? Clogged? I'd be surprised if your radiator is just "worn out" and needing replacement. These old rovers can be kept going with much elbow grease and less flat out replacing of parts. That is in contrast to newer cars that have many non-serviceable parts which makes me wonder about your mechanic's diagnosis. But that's just me.

In the worst case, you could have burned out a ring or worse but try checking out some of the steps mentioned in the earlier posts before you think about replacing the motor. Thats right, roll up your sleeves and get dirty. :p

Let us know how you get on.

Cheers,
Tim

[Terrys]

Tim's right. These radiators were made when they used good heavy cores. I have never junked one. You very likely might need to have it professionally boiled and backflushed, but that would be the total extent.

Engine "knocks" can come from a variety of problems. Much the same as the radiators, they too are stout enough to last till the next century, and very rebuildable. It can be as simple as retarded timing, to bad main or rod bearings. Piston slap too.

[PH4]

Thanks for the advice. Looks like I will have to really get into the engine. My mechanic checked the compression and got 0 on one of the cylinders. The piston in that cylinder is loose and not connected. in his words "something broke/let loose in the bottom end of the engine". I was not able to have an in depth conversation at that point and told him to hold off on tearing engine apart. After it happened I checked the oil and plenty of oil and clear as a bell.

In regards to the radiator, the actual cooling fins have been coming off at a pretty good clip this past year. But I am open to suggestions.

[Daurie]

How well do you know / trust your mechanic? This is just me talking but unless I have a personal relationship with a mechanic / independent shop, I wouldn't trust him/her as far as I could throw them. Don't get me wrong because I know there are trustworthy mechanics out there but I feel that finding the right one who won't take advantage of an individual with lesser knowledge concerning mechanic work takes time.

Maybe I've been hanging out around the wrong folks.. who knows. :confused: It may be worth your time to get a rover friend off of here to look over it, if there is one nearby, and then go from there.

There is some good advice on here and rolling up your sleeves and checking things out will be a good thing. You will either find and get your issue fixed or you will gather enough information to be well armed with information when you go in to get the repairs made.

Good Luck!

[ajones]

Correct me if I am wrong but pressure could not be building in that cylinder b/c the valves are not closing fully, i.e. valve train issues rather than a broken piston or connecting rod, therefore during compression stroke air is just pushed out through said open valve rather than being compressed. Thus, I would concur with the others: pull valve cover and take a look. Then, if you really think you have a bottom end problem drop the oil pan and look in it (metal bits) and at that cylinder.

[PH4]

I find my mechanic very trustworthy in his dealings and have used him for years. He is also very fair in his charges. He has worked on a good many Rover engines. Although he is no expert on Rover engines he has been pretty good in the past. I have found him to be the exception to the norm.

I by no means want to pay for a new engine but am considering fact that I have two Series whether it would be worth going ahead and getting a new one. Unfortunately, my experience also tells me that as soon as I put a strong healthy engine in it will show the probably weak condition of transmission.

[Daurie]

Sounds like you've found a keeper mechanic. :thumb-up: If the engine is indeed in the condition he describes then a short block may be the way to go depending on the cost to rebuild. Of course this is assuming the head is fine.

[Tim Smith]

I hope your mechanic is good like you say. Remember that you're not making/keeping a friendship with your mechanic but rather conducting business with him. If you confuse that then you might not end up satisfied with the business or the friendship (if there is one).

I have a funny feeling that he is trying to leave you with a bunch of questions and not trying to definitively find the answer for you. I mean, there are only 3 nuts holding the valve cover on. Why didn't he just take a quick look and then you would know if it were the top end or the bottom??? Breaking the seal maybe? But it was a new head gasket so...

Maybe I'm just not trusting of mechanics. I've been swindled in the past and I'd like to think I know a thing or two even if I'm not an expert.

Any way, back on topic, pop the valve cover off, and check that cylinder (and all of them too in case he had a bad reading). It's my guess that you are talking about a 50/50 chance that it's the top end or the bottom end.

If you are in the southern CT area, then PM me. It would make me feel better to know that a fellow series owner isn't getting ripped off! :D

Although, if your mechanic is anything like the ones I've experienced, he won't let me on his property with my tool bag in hand. :mad:

Good luck and let us know how this goes.

[Tim Smith]

I by no means want to pay for a new engine but am considering fact that I have two Series whether it would be worth going ahead and getting a new one. Unfortunately, my experience also tells me that as soon as I put a strong healthy engine in it will show the probably weak condition of transmission.

Sorry to double post folks... so as for the condition of your transmission, well lets tackle one problem at a time.


Hmm...<grinding gears>... <smoke - puff>.. <grind gears some-more>

Although, if you have a number of issues ailing your truck then it would be wise to use this as a stand back moment. You know, stand back and make a complete list of everything it needs. Gather your costs together and then decide what is necessary for you to have the reliable truck you are looking for.

I'd hate to recommend any one to drop their series due to something like this but in the same light, it would equally be too bad if you never get the chance to really enjoy the truck because "there is always something wrong with it". Best not to walk into this eyes wide shut.

By taking a full head-on look at everything the truck needs and getting it dealt with correctly the first time is well worth it. If you can't work on it your self then your costs may go way up. So lets be honest here.

Lets see. If you need a short block rebuild, well that might be expensive. Few grand maybe, I don't know? A transmission, well you're probably talking a few grand more (still guessing here). A radiator, well you've already found an honest price for a new one. What else is there?

Seriously, add it all up and decide for yourself if you want to do the whole kitandkaboodle or if she'll hold together after the motor is fixed.

After saying all that, let me also add that my series trucks have been far cheaper to run than everything else I've owned (other than my first Honda which I still only owned about 1 1/2 years). Seriously, my series trucks have lasted me longer than anything else I've owned hands down but the fact that I can do my own maintenance is a huge help. It's also a lot more satisfying to do my own work too.

If I did have to pay for the labor of the maintenance items and the occasional broken axle then it might be another story.

So the moral of the story is, get it done right. All of it. Then do the maintenance yourself and have a great time with your truck.

Kind regards,
Tim

[PH4]

Tim, thanks for the comments. My other Series is a 1962 which I have had for over ten years now with little to no problems, however, it was rebuilt while I was in Switzerland by a pretty unique shop that only restores Series and kits out 110s for expedition(they really knew what they were doing) so I have probably been spoiled by its reliability. The 1972 with the problem(s) that seem to mount I bought as more of a daily driver and to use for 4-6 hour round trips. I am definitely in it for the long haul but want to make sure I do not keep patching a problem that will have to be replaced eventually. Scary thing is I was actually convincing my wife the need for a Series 1 on ebay that was up for bid the night before the break down.

[Tim Smith]

Tim, thanks for the comments. My other Series is a 1962 which I have had for over ten years now with little to no problems, however, it was rebuilt while I was in Switzerland by a pretty unique shop that only restores Series and kits out 110s for expedition(they really knew what they were doing) so I have probably been spoiled by its reliability. The 1972 with the problem(s) that seem to mount I bought as more of a daily driver and to use for 4-6 hour round trips. I am definitely in it for the long haul but want to make sure I do not keep patching a problem that will have to be replaced eventually. Scary thing is I was actually convincing my wife the need for a Series 1 on ebay that was up for bid the night before the break down.
Great! So you know what I mean about the reliability and longevity of a good series truck.

I'm glad now!!! :) :D :thumb-up:

Thanks,
Tim

[PH4]

Little more information. Apparantly cylinder #3 threw a rod. No idea why.

[Tim Smith]

Little more information. Apparantly cylinder #3 threw a rod. No idea why.
Wow, that stinks! I'm surprised there wasn't a little more warning leading up to that.

Anyone know if that can be done with the motor in-situ? Never had to replace a rod myself and kind of curious about it...

Good luck with it and let us know how it all turns out. Pictures too if possible.

[PH4]

The only warning I know of was knocking in fourth gear at 50mph when climbing grade month before but not enough to warrant concern (maybe).

I must confess that when it threw the rod I had earbuds in listening to Ipod going 60mph on flat surface, however, I really do not think if I had them out there would have been any indication of what was about to happen.

Is there some way oil could have been blocked from getting to that cylinder?

[Tim Smith]

Is there some way oil could have been blocked from getting to that cylinder?
Sure, anything is possible. When you get the parts out, you'll want to take a good look at them real close. I imagine you'll be able to find out if it was over heated, under tightened or overstressed once you get in there. Look for any clogs in the oil passages too when you are in there.

Man, I'm kind of surprised the rod just went like that.

Good luck! :)

[Saxondog]

I'd go ahead and rebuild the whole engine at this point. If you have another vehicle to use for awhile. At a minimum you have trashed the #3 rod and the crankshaft will have to be reground. Never tore down a rover engine but done many others, I'll eat my shorts if you can get that crank out with the engine still in. On any manual trans I ever saw, the input shaft protrudes into the end of the crank. Which means either the trans or engine must be removed, or at least separated from each other. Since the engine is your problem, I'd take it out. Getting an engine out is not as bad some may think. Once you have it out and tear it down you will understand completely how it works. Once you get the machine shop work done just follow the reaasembly instructions in the manual. The hardest part of a rebuild is getting the trans mated back to the engine and getting it started the first time. Give it whirl!!

[PH4]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Since regardless of what I do the current engine is going to have to be removed I have had it towed home and plan on removing/diagnosing the engine myself and using this as a way to better my Series knowledge and skills.

[PH4]

Any reccomendations regarding removing engine and putting in position to rebuild. I see in Green Bible they have a specific tool for this but doubt I can find one. I think I will use my cumberlong but how do you set in a position to do the overhaul? Fairly remedial question but I do not have a garage so I need to plan accordingly.

[Daurie]

Most chain auto parts stores or tool houses will have a reasonably priced engine stand around. Once you get it (engine) out transfer it straight to that and wheel it where you plan to work. It helps to have an assortment of long bolts and washers on hand that will thread into the rear of the block where the trans bellhousing mated up. :thumb-up:

[Saxondog]

You say you don't have a garage, do you have slab or driveway work on?

If you are going to use a come-along then you will have to push the rover back after you raise the engine out and then lower the engine down. If you don't have an engine stand you could just set the engine on the ground/slab for teardown. It will still make a bit of a mess even though you drained all the fliuds before you removed it. You should be able to lift by hand any of the pieces after your all torn down. Even the block at worst will be a two person lift. I am not a big man, but I can foist a bare SBC/SBF v8 bare block up on something.To reassemble you could place on a bench or spread out a floor/ground cover beneath your come-along. Remember to keep things as clean as you can for reassembly. I can assemble an engine in less than a couple of hours,so if this is new to you,reassembly might take a long day. Hold the beers til your done. We your ready to reinstall engine,just raise with come-along and push the rover back under it.

[PH4]

My plan was to hoist engine out of 109 sw with cumberlong attached to tree limb, move sw out of way with 109 regular and then drop engine into bed of 109 regular or an engine stand if I can find one. House is on stilts with concrete slab underneath so no garage but will be out of rain. I have turned wrench on most of series but never touched engine other than fuel pumps. How much time should I allow once out of engine for rebuild?

[Saxondog]

What you say should work. An engine stand is of course best if you can come up with one, especially for the reassm. Keep track of which hole all your rods,pistons & tappets come out of. Especially the tappets, if you don't fit a new cam & tappet set. If you use the old and get tappets mixed up they will last no time. Of course if you've got the $$ it's best just to replace cam & tappets now. Depending on what the conditon of the pistons & bores are you may use the pistons over. The other three rods can likley be recon by you machine shop. Listen to your machinest there. For me engine out & teardown is a half a day job. Figure a least a day maybe two. Off to Machine shop who knows ,depends on his work load. If they can get to it you could have it back by the next weekend for the work to your parts. Getting the new parts? Haven't tried to get anything for rover yet.Figure at least a day each for reassm & reistall. Going back together is always slower and coming apart.