New Bulkheads - Time To Step Up To The Plate

[Jim-ME]

Dear Forum Readers and Host,
It's time to step up to the plate. I fully believe we have a participant on this forum that has the skill and technical ability to produce new Series bulkheads of a quality that will blow your socks off. What they don't have is the capitol to do it. How many of us are willing to put up a down payment, an amount yet to be determined, to assist this person to purchase the necessary equipment to do it sooner than later. I will personally state that I personally stand nothing to gain from this other than getting a new bulkhead which will be built in the USA. I for one want to keep my $ here and not send well over $2000 to England or better yet Thailand.
Please give this some real thought before you respond.
Jim

[Eric W S]

I'd be willing to purchase one under the following terms:

1. It must be an accurate reproduction similar in qulaity to the gentlemen producing the bulkheads in the UK. Mr. Morris? I am not price sensitive. Accuracy and quality I will pay for.

2. Must be galvanized.

Show some pics of the member's skill. Doesn't have to be a bulkhead. Something with spot welds and bends should suffice.

EwS

[Bostonian1976]

well - I need 2 (okay maybe just one but a lot of work on the other), so I would be interested in seeing how this progresses as well/contributing to the cause.

[Jim-ME]

My gut tells me that this individual can produce the same if not better than Morris. From what I have gathered talking to him he will not make aything that doesn't meet his own standards which are in my opinion are probably higher than mine for sure. This may be a year or two off before it happens. I want you both to realise that.

Good to see the replies. My thanks to both of you.

Jim

[Eric W S]

Sounds good.

Love to learn how to bang tin myself. Be kinda cool to have someone guide you thru a well done repair or even help you make a bulkhead over a long weekend. . .

EwS

[jp-]

If you guys want to start paying me $2000, I might be interested in making a few. I just got a small press brake a week ago. Not sure about the galvanizing. I just happen to have a pristine SIIA bulkhead laying around for a model.

Shop has to get finished first, so maybe in the next 6 months.

[Eric W S]

Do it up! Worst case scenario is you have a spare bulkhead :D

[Bertha]

If it was a financially viable thing to do , RN or one of the other suppliers would have invested in it already. Not enough demand and high investment cost will never see that get off the ground here in the USA.

[Jim-ME]

Bertha that is pure nonsense. Series Rovers can and will be here for many years to come with the help of people like the gentleman I am corresponding with, someone like jp or even someone we haven't heard from. The truth is, most people that deal in Rover parts want to buy and sell what is readily available. I don't blame them. They are larger companies with employees and obligations. They need to move product which you can't do unless you have it on the shelf. You simply would not believe what is available in England compared to here. Why is Morris in England currently backed up more than 18 months for one at a time custom buikheads if there is no demand? Will anyone who is willing to make Series parts like a bulkhead going to get rich? No. Believe it or not there are people that will do things because they believe it is the right thing to do to keep Rovers alive here as long as they can make some money. I am simply trying very hard to keep Series Rovers alive in this country but if I have to rely on the larger parts people (no offense to our hosts or anybody else that sells parts) my Rover will end up rotting, parted out, or worse yet crushed. That is more than I am willing to accept without a fight even if I ultimately have to send my $ elsewhere.
Jim

[Daurie]

I agree wholeheartedly that it would be a worthy cause. I for one have passed up buying more than a few series trucks because of questionable bulkheads. Even the ones that could have been repaired I passed up. However had I had the option of simply replacing the bulkhead I would have looked at them with more interest. It may sound crazy but I'd rather replace it then patch it given the option. I'm sure I'm not the only one though. :D I'm on board for one when the time comes. Maybe 2!

Daurie

[yorker]

I think you'll have to count me as one of the skeptics- I'd rather put the time and $ into restoring an original than dump $2000+ on a new one. Maybe if they were in the $1000 range I'd think about it. I've never passed on a LR because of the bulkhead alone- they aren't that difficult to rebuild. Building them from scratch on the other hand?

[edit][ I don't really mean to $hit on your idea- it is a noble one, I just think for a lot of people it will be a hard sale. If there was enough market someone like Ike Goss would probably be making them. Maybe you should ask him why he doesn't?

[Bertha]

Bertha that is pure nonsense. Series Rovers can and will be here for many years to come with the help of people like the gentleman I am corresponding with, someone like jp or even someone we haven't heard from. The truth is, most people that deal in Rover parts want to buy and sell what is readily available. I don't blame them. They are larger companies with employees and obligations. They need to move product which you can't do unless you have it on the shelf. You simply would not believe what is available in England compared to here. Why is Morris in England currently backed up more than 18 months for one at a time custom buikheads if there is no demand? Will anyone who is willing to make Series parts like a bulkhead going to get rich? No. Believe it or not there are people that will do things because they believe it is the right thing to do to keep Rovers alive here as long as they can make some money. I am simply trying very hard to keep Series Rovers alive in this country but if I have to rely on the larger parts people (no offense to our hosts or anybody else that sells parts) my Rover will end up rotting, parted out, or worse yet crushed. That is more than I am willing to accept without a fight even if I ultimately have to send my $ elsewhere.
Jim

You make reference to English demand , but I have clearly stated that the USA demand is what we are talking about here and hence what is lacking. This is what does not make it a viable thing to make a bulkhead here. Rovers are like Chevys in England-there are too many to be found. I have no problem keeping Rovers alive because I have the skill to repair what I have and do not need to unnecessarilly replace things that are repairable. Most people that I have found that are into Rovers feel the same way. They are hands on and are able to come up with creative and cost effective solutions. It sounds to me like you dont fall into this catagory, and as a result require people to make and do things for you(ie :work on your truck). Good luck in your quest, however in the US market, I think you may find it to be futile.

[Daurie]

I've never passed on a LR because of the bulkhead alone- they aren't that difficult to rebuild. Building them from scratch on the other hand?



Well I wouldn't say on the bulkhead alone.. but in some cases along with other issues, the bulkhead came to be the determining factor.

I haven't been around Series Rovers nearly as long as most of you on here so maybe I'm over speculating on the value of a well made, fresh, new bulkhead. :confused:

[Momo]

Originally Posted by Bertha

...I have the skill to repair what I have and do not need to unnecessarilly replace things that are repairable. It sound to me like you dont fall into this catagory, and as a result require people to make and do things for you(ie :work on you truck).

Well I guess you will never, ever need to buy another Land Rover part because you're so talented. But I for one would rather be able to buy a new bulkhead some day than to have to invest in metal working tools and such. I would also rather pay for one than to spend the time to build it myself. There are things I fix myself and there are things that I'd rather not deal with because there are only so many hours in a day. What is wrong with you? Your attitude stinks.

Plenty of series trucks rot away for want of a bulkhead. Some bulkheads are too far gone to be more than a pattern. Lack of new bulkheads are the one thing that keeps otherwise salvageable Rovers in the parts truck category. Furthermore I can forsee them being exported to the UK since the dollar is weak against the pound, there is a good demand, and the Morris bulkheads have a waiting list.

Jim, I think it's a great idea, I'd considered looking into it too. I have been looking for a decent bulkhead to take to a metal fab shop but haven't found one yet. And although it may indeed be cost prohibitive, I say go for it. I'd buy one just to put in the garage corner for a future project.

The hardest part will be getting the first one made. I know a little about the plastic injection molding industry, and the parallel here is the cost of prototyping. Very high tooling cost. Sounds like these would be handmade, so labor costs would also be high. But if it can be streamlined into component parts and then the final assembly could be simplified, you could reduce the man-hours per piece. Once that's done you can amortize the cost over the production run.

The other thing to think about here is that the availability of new bulkheads could create a new market. One could build a series Land Rover from the ground up. Everything else is out there to build a brand new one!

[Jim-ME]

Bertha I am so happy you can do it all yourself. I guess you are a better Rover owner than I. No I can't weld but I do all my own repairs so I strongly suggest you watch your blanket statements about my abilities. I do know that parts wise alone it will cost me $727 just in repair panels my eyes tell me I need which doesn't take into consideration shipping. It also doesn't take into consideration welding, painting or galvanizing, nothing. How in heavens's name can anyone think you add a 2a dash and the area around the vents for less than $300? I have been doing my homework and know for a fact that I can get a fully repaired and primed bulkhead in England for $1700 and have been quoted $3200 for a brand new one. I also know there is a gentleman in Thailand that is talking about building Series body panels and bulkheads. So you see there is also market outside the US for NLA Series body parts. When it is all said and done it all comes down to whom do I want to give my money to and how soon I can get the old one swaped for the new one for I drive mine every day. These are the things that are driving me in this arena. Believe me if Ike Goss ever makes a bulkhead I'll be the first in line.

[Bertha]

Well I guess you will never, ever need to buy another Land Rover part because you're so talented. But I for one would rather be able to buy a new bulkhead some day than to have to invest in metal working tools and such. I would also rather pay for one than to spend the time to build it myself. There are things I fix myself and there are things that I'd rather not deal with because there are only so many hours in a day. What is wrong with you? Your attitude stinks.

Plenty of series trucks rot away for want of a bulkhead. Some bulkheads are too far gone to be more than a pattern. Lack of new bulkheads are the one thing that keeps otherwise salvageable Rovers in the parts truck category. Furthermore I can forsee them being exported to the UK since the dollar is weak against the pound, there is a good demand, and the Morris bulkheads have a waiting list.

Jim, I think it's a great idea, I'd considered looking into it too. I have been looking for a decent bulkhead to take to a metal fab shop but haven't found one yet. And although it may indeed be cost prohibitive, I say go for it. I'd buy one just to put in the garage corner for a future project.

The hardest part will be getting the first one made. I know a little about the plastic injection molding industry, and the parallel here is the cost of prototyping. Very high tooling cost. Sounds like these would be handmade, so labor costs would also be high. But if it can be streamlined into component parts and then the final assembly could be simplified, you could reduce the man-hours per piece. Once that's done you can amortize the cost over the production run.

The other thing to think about here is that the availability of new bulkheads could create a new market. One could build a series Land Rover from the ground up. Everything else is out there to build a brand new one!
Unfortunately you have mis-interpreted what I have written-Go back and re-read what I wrote before getting hostile. I am simply stating that the market in the USA is limited for bulkheads due to the limited amount of LR's that exist here. You are kidding about people re-importing Rovers back to the UK-right? They cant give them away overthere. Furthermore , I highly doubt that most people would pay 2500-3000 for a new bulkhead when they can restore there own for a few dollars in sheet metal, because it would cost at least that much to cover reproducing the limited amount that they would sell. In my experience, the people why cry the loudest for other people to make a NLA part are the first ones to back out, when the reality of price comes into play.

[Bertha]

Bertha I am so happy you can do it all yourself. I guess you are a better Rover owner than I. No I can't weld but I do all my own repairs so I strongly suggest you watch your blanket statements about my abilities. I do know that parts wise alone it will cost me $727 just in repair panels my eyes tell me I need which doesn't take into consideration shipping. It also doesn't take into consideration welding, painting or galvanizing, nothing. How in heavens's name can anyone think you add a 2a dash and the area around the vents for less than $300? I have been doing my homework and know for a fact that I can get a fully repaired and primed bulkhead in England for $1700 and have been quoted $3200 for a brand new one. I also know there is a gentleman in Thailand that is talking about building Series body panels and bulkheads. So you see there is also market outside the US for NLA Series body parts. When it is all said and done it all comes down to whom do I want to give my money to and how soon I can get the old one swaped for the new one for I drive mine every day. These are the things that are driving me in this arena. Believe me if Ike Goss ever makes a bulkhead I'll be the first in line.

Would you pay 3200.00 for a new one? The guy in Thailand is TALKING yet not doing anything at this point. Dont get any false hopes there. Try shipping something over from England -that 1700.00 will quickly escalate to a ridiculous level, not to mention, most English repair methods on Rovers are less than satifactory. BTW- where are you getting the $727.00 in repair panels from. If you dont do the work yourself, you wouldonly need to buy the posts. The person you bring it to should easily be able to fabricate everything else-which will lead to a better fit and a much nicer repair.

[Jim-ME]

No I can't pay $3200 for a new one nor do I expect someone to build me one for $1000 either. To answer your question, I need everything from the dash down on my bulkhead to be able to get rid of the rust plus both door pillars. I based my price on our host's prices. To me if it were easy to fabricate these pieces why would anybody stock them? Anybody could build them right? You are absolutely right about the cost of shipping from England. The ace in the hole that I have is that a fellow Rover owner is bringing a container over early in 2009 and I can get some space. If it weren't for him I'd be looking a an easy $600 for shipping. I simply know of someone in the US that is seriously looking into building bulkheads. I was trying selfishly to speed up the process because of the pure quality of that person's work is simply what I want.
J

[yorker]

I do know that parts wise alone it will cost me $727 just in repair panels my eyes tell me I need which doesn't take into consideration shipping. It also doesn't take into consideration welding, painting or galvanizing, nothing. How in heavens's name can anyone think you add a 2a dash and the area around the vents for less than $300?

If you are going to make new bulkheads why screw around with repair panels at retail prices? If you are going to fabricate something you may as well build it from the ground up- right? That ensures you have control over the resources you are depending on to make the bulkheads to begin with.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you?:confused:

[edit] OK we posted at the same time I misunderstood you. FWIW A lot of people have been repairing bulkheads without the benefit of repair panels though.

[Bertha]

No I can't pay $3200 for a new one nor do I expect someone to build me one for $1000 either. To answer your question, I need everything from the dash down on my bulkhead to be able to get rid of the rust plus both door pillars. I based my price on our host's prices. To me if it were easy to fabricate these pieces why would anybody stock them? Anybody could build them right? You are absolutely right about the cost of shipping from England. The ace in the hole that I have is that a fellow Rover owner is bringing a container over early in 2009 and I can get some space. If it weren't for him I'd be looking a an easy $600 for shipping. I simply know of someone in the US that is seriously looking into building bulkheads. I was trying selfishly to speed up the process because of the pure quality of that person's work is simply what I want.
J
Simply stated, and not trying to offend, I think that getting a bulkhead built in the US from scratch, while admirable and helpful, will probably never get off the ground for the reason that you just answered- no one would be willing to pay the price of what it would take to produce it, which could easily be 3k or more. Our host offers panels for the DIYer, I seriously doubt that a professional fabricator who would redo your bulkhead , would buy anything past the door posts, for reasons I stated in my last post. Good luck in you quest.

[greenmeanie]

not to mention, most English repair methods on Rovers are less than satifactory.

Care to qualify your statement or is it more sweeping statements? Repairs to a Rover in the UK must still pass the standards set by the MOT. I know, I've been there and done that and the standard set for structural components is higher than most US states.

[Bertha]

Care to qualify your statement or is it more sweeping statements? Repairs to a Rover in the UK must still pass the standards set by the MOT. I know, I've been there and done that and the standard set for structural components is higher than most US states.

Check out one of the supposedly restored in UK Rovers from any of the people that are importing them and then formulate your own opinion.
BTW I know as well, I have been to England too.

[yorker]

Care to qualify your statement or is it more sweeping statements? Repairs to a Rover in the UK must still pass the standards set by the MOT. I know, I've been there and done that and the standard set for structural components is higher than most US states.


I think he is referring to the general standard of restoration for UK trucks vs US. A lot of people have bought trucks that passed MOT and were advertised as great shape but were not up to the standards one would expect from a truck sold in the USA with the same description.

It is a stereotype and it suffers from the same failings all stereotypes do. It probably gets more play than it should but there is a bit of truth to it.

caveat emptor applies to all trucks but particularly those you are buying sight unseen. ;)

[Momo]

Originally Posted by Bertha

Unfortunately you have mis-interpreted what I have written-Go back and re-read what I wrote before getting hostile.

No, I haven't misinterpreted anything. You were downright insulting to a guy who wants to provide all of us a means to buy the one component missing from the Series parts market. You want to put him and his efforts down, I don't think it's called for and I'll tell you so. Devil's advocate is one thing, being rude about it is another.


I am simply stating that the market in the USA is limited for bulkheads due to the limited amount of LR's that exist here. You are kidding about people re-importing Rovers back to the UK-right?

Read again, I was talking about US produced bulkheads potentially having a market in the UK. Worldwide in fact.

[yorker]

This is getting ridiculous. If you think there is a market then set a price, and start taking preorders with $1000 down payment. That will separate the wheat from the chaff.


Everyone thinks stuff like this is a great idea until you start asking for $.

We could talk and talk and talk about it here and never have anything meaningful come from it.

[Eric W S]

If it was a financially viable thing to do , RN or one of the other suppliers would have invested in it already. Not enough demand and high investment cost will never see that get off the ground here in the USA.

Other suppliers like Craddocks who sell out every replacement bulkhead made even in the UK (which is subject to high taxation in the form of VAT)? One that isn't that great? How about Mr. Morris who has more work than he can actually handle? A couple of his bulkheads have made it here to the US. Check out Guns and rovers. How about the threads on the series2club.co.uk forum where members are trying to find a supplier, even one as far away as Taiwan or China? Or how about other threads on this forum looking for a supplier? How about a supplier like Pangolin4x4 who actually made CAD drawings in preparation for a production run?

The demand is there. And this thread and others from around the world are proof positive of the free market looking to fill that demand.

What are the investment costs? A brake. spot welder and steel is all Mr. Morris uses. He works from his house! So just what are these high investment costs? Hell if you search the series2club forum a guy in Thailand made a scrath built frame and bulkhead in his spare time.

What about the guys in Costa Rica that built a series from scratch? Bulkhead, all body parts, and tub. Their ebay auction comes up about every 3 months.

[greenmeanie]

I think he is referring to the general standard of restoration for UK trucks vs US. A lot of people have bought trucks that passed MOT and were advertised as great shape but were not up to the standards one would expect from a truck sold in the USA with the same description.

It is a stereotype and it suffers from the same failings all stereotypes do. It probably gets more play than it should but there is a bit of truth to it.

caveat emptor applies to all trucks but particularly those you are buying sight unseen. ;)

A lot of the trucks sold like that are specifically put up for sale as export because they won't pass MOT. A truck can still havea V5 without an MOT.

I've seen a good few come over with tack welded scab patches on the chassis, holes in outriggers, fiberglassed footwells, blown engines etc all of which would result in MOT fail.

It is commonly known in the UK that Rovers have a mythical status in the US and people will pay for the 'look' as someone put it earlier. An internet description on ebay of a 'restoration' can mean that it got a wash before the photo. Most prospective US buyers will not pay the money to fly out and look over a truck so a seller can talk it up all he wants. It is extremely difficult to pursue someone legally over the Atlantic. As such there is a certain type of dealer that will cobble together crap to flog to you nice Americans with deep pockets and a wistful look in your eye. As you say Yorker, caveat emptor.

At least in the UK there is a minimum standard that has to be achieved because of the MOT whilst in many states in the US an emissions test is all that counts and not even that for many trucks. If anything I have no lower expectations of vehicles in the US. There is at least one gentleman who is notorious for pedalling junk over here. There are a lot of other people who honestly believe that Rovers don't rust and would like to charge you accordingly.

Bertha, I'm glad you have visited my country. Maybe if you had stayed long enough you could have visited Dunsfold, Gaydon or even one of the big shows and witnessed the standard of work put in to many of the UK trucks. I'm not talking a bit of quality welding here - I'm talking people who contacted the original designer to discuss the finer points of the design with those who originally concieved the vehicle before sourcing or repairing every correct part down to the last nut, bolt and washer.

You sadly have succumbed to one of the common myths about the UK LR movement. Yes there are plenty of rusted out beaters but that is because Landies are like F150's for the UK and not cherished toys like over here.

Get over it. You are right that the bulkheads would most likely not succeed as a commercial venture. That does not mean that there is not a place for someone to make themselves some money catering to those who do want new bulkheads. There are those who would say that Ike and Seriestrek should never succeed because anyone with fabbing skills could produce rock sliders and drivetrain conversions.

Just sayin that nobody has ever succeeded with a negative attitude.

Rant over.
Gregor

[Jim-ME]

OK since I started this I'm going to try to end it before there is more verbal bloodshed. To set the record straight I simply tried to find out what type of interest there is for new bulkheads amongst the members of this forum. Kind of like taking a poll before an election. I think the person that I hope has been following this has a better idea of potential bulkhead demand. He and only he will be making the call as to if it is worth his time and money to provide this product. I sincerely hope he does but only time will tell. My thanks to all that participated.
Jim

[junkyddog11]

It's a tough call to make.

We have the equipment, the talent, and the shops to handle the pressings on hand but would still need to sell 100 or more at $3500 ea to even start to see a return. Very limited market for that.

That makes rebuilding original bulkheads much more attractive from my veiwpoint.

[S11A]

I would have bought one but mine was in outstanding condition. I think $3,500 is pretty reasonable since it is the key piece of, well, I was going to say body work but it is almost more like a part of the frame in that all of the body panels start from there and it is fairly structural...

I haven't added up the cost of various bulkhead replacement panels that are available, and a person might need more than one of those if it is in bad shape. Add in the cost of a shop cutting out and replacing the bad bits (if you do not have the skill or time). Then there would probably be more body shop prep such as blasting and filling, depending on the level of finish you wanted. But I would guess a person could easily come close enough to the $3,500 mark that it would make a lot of sense to just buy a new one and have that peace of mind.

Would the $3,500 you mentioned include galvanizing and subsequent clean-up?

Another idea on this topic would be to see if RN, Pangolin, RDS, BP, Wise Owl, DAP, AB, and other suppliers would be willing to commit to purchasing a minimum quantity over the next 2 - 3 years, stocking these, or underwriting part of the setup cost. This would take some of the doubt out of the producer's mind as to potential market. I would think it would be feasible for most of these shops to commit to buying/stocking 10 each, for maybe a total of 50 of the 100 you said would be required. You could possibly get at least 10 - 20 pre-orders from individuals by hitting the message boards.

ECR's web site says that they are no longer doing mail-order bulkhead repairs, but might be willing to partner on this sort of venture (either to sub out this sort of work or else to manufacture new ones under license to ECR). Perhaps they would be willing to sell their bulkhead jigs and any tooling? In exchange for which they would get some concessions on selling these. Just an idea...

http://www.eastcoastrover.com/Bulkhead.html

Another thought is these guys (I know nothing about them other than what I have read on the Internet) - maybe they have some capability or tooling?

http://www.naturerovers.com/restorationprocess.html

Not sure, but are there differences between the various Series that would require significant tooling variations? There are going to be the people who as someone put it on another thread, will complain that the air cleaner is not exactly the right shade of black.

Just some of my thoughts.

[Eric W S]

Cross post on the UK boards. I bet you can get the min needed. UK pound is so strong against the dollar and Morris is not producing enough to meet demand.

[S11A]

You could also hit the UK shops up for stocking these - a container full would probably ship for less than $5K? Not sure about duties and taxes, though.

[S11A]

Doh! Eric beat me to it.

[Eric W S]

Were you reading the posts on the Series II club forum as well? LOL!

Quick Draw McGraw. And I just dated myself as being old (er)

[S11A]

Was there a similar thread there?

I have been buying vintage cartoons on DVD for the kids, and trying to limit the advertoonments that pass for this nowadays.

[Roverdawg76]

I'd buy a new bulkhead when I restore my truck.

[Eric W S]

Was there a similar thread there?

I have been buying vintage cartoons on DVD for the kids, and trying to limit the advertoonments that pass for this nowadays.

Yup. Quite a few I think. Some center around availability and others about why no one is making them. last one started because a guy in Thailand scratch built a bulkhead and from the pics, it looks awesome. Scratchbuilt the frame as well. Looks better than a Richards or Marsland. . .

He's looking into a production run as well.

[greenmeanie]

Oh well, just to make you jealous there is this tasty little project on ebay right now.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Landrover-Series-lll-Project-Short-Wheel-Base_W0QQitemZ270209161761QQihZ017QQcategoryZ31348 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

That would be worth importing just as a parts car for the chassis and bulkhead.

Cheers
Gregor

[ajones]

It states on the listing that the bulkhead is new and galv. Wonder who made it?

[junkyddog11]

Problem with this "just partner up with all the big guys" is that they all need a piece of the pie too. It's this wierd business profit scheme thing. Would drive the cost up how much?

We've spent some time looking at this as we have 30 or so Series "donor" trucks at the shop which will all need some sort of bulkhead work. To go into bulkhead production will require some more dedicated space as well as a fairly substantial capitol investment. If all it took was "a brake, a spot welder and work out of your house" then I'm sure we'd have Mr Morris's popping up all over the place as it must indeed be a worthwhile enterprise. As Jim probably figured out at this point, everyone wants to be able to buy a new bulkhead, some would pay realistic prices for it, but in reality there is not a very large actual market for this when existing bulkheads can be easily rebuilt for short money by any backyard Joe with parts that already exist. Or they can send it to a specialist shop who can rebuild it to "as new" spec for about what a new one would cost anyhow.

[Eric W S]

Just to clarify, this isn't an attack, or cynical repsonse or any of that. I just want to continue the discussion and hopefully learn something new and get a "few missing peices".

What is the substantial capital investment? I'm an accountant. I get the idea of distribution charges, retailing and margins, blah blah blah. My previous examples was that you can indeed produce a bulkhead with minimal capital. The barrier to the market isn't the money, it's the skill, knowledge and time.

What I don't understand is the need for a substantial amount of money to get the production started. It's pointless to plan this as an assembly line project. Or even consider thinking about the offshore (China et al). Like you said, this is a small market, so why bother messing around with economies of scale, tooling and pressing? If you can CAD the bulkhead and think out a logical and efficient build process than what else do you really need?

So what exactly am I missing? I don't fabricate, but needs someone that does to clarify things. Maybe a profiatble solution is indeed possible.

Take your example of the bulkheads you have. Why not repair and galvanize one as time permits and ebay it? Say you sell 5 a year, for 2500. Thats a pretty good infusion of cash. For a small business I'd say its more about the cash flow than such things as margin, $/hour etc. In reality your just back filling down time.

[S11A]

Eric,

I think it is a good question.

As to what would go into building new ones, take a look at the links above on ECR's bulkhead restoration process, and Ike's (Pangolin):

http://www.pangolin4x4.com/pangolin4x4/reference/howto/bulkheadrepair/index.htm

All of the individual panels would have to be constructed, and either bent or welded to form the various angles. i.e.- anywhere two planes intersect, the fabricator would have to do something, hence another step in the process.

To get a better idea of the various sub-panels that would have to be fabricated and then welded together, refer to the RN pages on bulkhead repair panels:

http://www.roversnorth.com/store/pc-219-276-page-43-land-rover-series-ii-iia-iii-defender-bulkhead-chassis-footwell-door-post.aspx

The panels shown on the RN page above add up (very) roughly to around $1,000 and do not get you the "dash" area or area around the vents, either.

If the sub-panels are to look correct, a press would be required to stamp in the correct indentations and detail, as well as stamp out the holes (although those could be cut by hand but then that is more money). The fabricator would probably need to make several sets of tooling, one for each sub-panel.

The wikipedia page has a nice animation of how the tool and die work in a press:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_(manufacturing)

[S11A]

An old thread here on the forum:

http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2075

[Eric W S]

Seen those pages. Ike's site alway has the goods.

But do you really need a press? No. In theory, again never done this but it is intuitive, couldn't you get around all that?

All the peices are basically like assembled oragami? Unfold them and construct a wooden template on what shape to cut out and guides on where to drill. The indentations could be rolled by hand if you can match the contour in the footwells. This would be a majority of the work.

Once everything is cut/drilled, and or rolled, you could in theory start spot welding things together.

This is a gross oversimplification as I am sure there are things that would be very difficult to replicate without the factory tooling.

Anyway, possible. May be profitable.

Time to start looking for a good fabricator's class in Chicago. Hell ECR, Junky, Ike, Lanny all started somewhere right?

[S11A]

One item that would greatly influence how easy this is to do would be the gauge of the metal. I am not sure what the number is, but at least some of it appears to be thicker than could be easily indented by hand. It could possibly be bent on a hand brake OK (in terms of gauge).

The straight lines would be straightforward (no pun intended), but the curved bits are going to be more tricky, such as at the top of the door posts and around the vent openings. You could form the tops of the door posts around a large round pipe of the correct diameter before folding the edges in (notch then re-weld the notches shut after folding the edge over).

Eastwood has a lot of stuff for restoration, but I haven't purchsed anything sizeable from them:

http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemType=CATEGORY&itemID=1397

Not trying to completely discourage you, but if you look at the toe board (RNF0003) it looks like the process to manually form that single piece would be:

1. Cut sheet metal to size and correct outline including flanges to be folded
2. Cut holes
3. Form indentations (corrugations?)
4. Cut 2 notches per main line folds (side to side lines forming main 3 planes)
5. Fold two main lines
6. Fold six side lips
7. Fold top lip down
8. Notch (2) and fold up bottom lip
9. Not sure if you would need to weld the side lips up (probably not)
10. Debur / snad edges to prevent cuts
11. Prime or otherwise coat to prevent rust until final assembly and galvanizing

That is just a single piece, and probably one of the easier ones.

In terms of the entire bulkhead, you would also need to obtain a near-perfect one for use as a template and use it to set up appropriate jigs/fixtures.

Not trying to discourage you, but I would suggest breaking down all the steps in forming each panel as I attempted above, and estimate how long each one would take, as well as final assembly, filling, sanding, and galvanizing.

That brings up another point - bondo for light filling is OK, but not sure how it would take galvanizing. Might have to use lead instead (and even that might not like galvanizing).

On the positive side, you really only need a lot of sheet metal (if the tools are ignored for now). Once you have the process down and items like forming the indents worked out, the cost of materials would be pretty small.

[jp-]

You cannot galvanize bondo, lead, or aluminum.

[yorker]

All the peices are basically like assembled oragami? Unfold them and construct a wooden template on what shape to cut out and guides on where to drill. The indentations could be rolled by hand if you can match the contour in the footwells. This would be a majority of the work.

Once everything is cut/drilled, and or rolled, you could in theory start spot welding things together.

This is a gross oversimplification as I am sure there are things that would be very difficult to replicate without the factory tooling.


How do you reproduce the vent panel?:confused:

[Jim-ME]

The vent panel and a 2a dash and how to make them is the hold up as you need, from what I gather one big rugged press.

Jim

[Bertha]

Out of curiousity Jim - what would you pay for a brand new, made to factory spec, galv bulkhead?

[junkyddog11]

Just to clarify, this isn't an attack, or cynical repsonse or any of that.

Wasn't taking it as such.

As for the bulkheads I have I do restore them and use them on trucks that are being built or for customers. It takes much effort and does not return much, other than satisfaction....which doesn't pay bill but none the less is good. I don't deal much with flogging stuff on e-bay.

Bulkheads seem like a relatively easy thing to produce I'm sure....judging from the response to this thread. It does take some sort of economy of scale. You cant invest in all kinds of fixtured tooling and have it sitting around collecting dust to do onesy twosy's. I can't even justify the cost of some equipment but depend on the talents of the local submarine building (Portsmouth Naval Shipyard) and the subcontract shops that have the equipment. It's a tough call and I'd love to do it but for now will stick to re-building.

...and bending sheetmetal the old fashoned way....on a tree, in the woods, behind the wheel.

[Jeff Aronson]

Jim, you are speaking for many Series owners who know that a rotting bulkhead can really take a great Rover off the road. My QE I almost had to exit to the world of "parts car" until ECR rescued me with a rebuilt bulkhead.

There's not just one bulkhead for all the Series vehicles. They differ between the Series I, II, II-A and III. Enthusiasts who are avid about restoration don't want a "generic" almost-like-the-original bulkhead; they will demand an exact replica. The fit of the bulkhead is essential if everything else is to fit on a frame. A critical starting point is the creation of a jig that has the exact dimensions needed (knowing full well that not every Rover is "exact"), and that would have to be done for every model.

Even if you're rebuilding a car for daily use, you still want the fenders, doors, windshield and rear tub to fit correctly. I certainly know you have high standards for your daily driver, Jim :)

Over the years, I've watched skilled fabricators at Rovers North and East Coast Rover rebuild bulkheads. It's a complex job; check out what Lindsay Porter wrote about welding bulkheads in his restoration book. Remember, too, that anyone who constructs parts assumes significant liability for safety. So the tooling, metal, testing, etc., needs to be up to snuff. Certainly I would not want to buy a bulkhead that has not been tested, or from an unknown fabricator. It's a critical part of the car's structure.

I respect Matt Browne's statements. He keeps a lot of Land Rovers operational and upgrades many vehicles here in New England. If he subcontracts the work, it's for a good reason.

And in recent decades, several vendors and restoration shops have made up a small number of critical parts, at their own expense, only to find that the inventory sits rather long, maybe too long sometimes.

You've launched a great effort, Jim! Keep up the good work. The discussion here is terrific and shows our real affection for our beloved Series Rovers. If we keep the enthusiasm high, a viable, quality solution will present itself.

[Jim-ME]

I know bulkheads are not easy to produce and I seriously hope I have not given anyone the impression that I think it is or should be a simple thing to do. If it were, we wouldn't be having this discussion because people would be making them. Hell, I am in awe at the people that can repair them but I won't let just anyone repair mine either. True, there are differences between the various Series Rovers but I do believe that it would be possible to make one for a Series 2/2a and one for a Series 3. To me the folks that are into true restoration (here comes the hate mail) would rebuild one or take several to make one or expect to pay much more to add the necessary differences to make it pure. What I think the majority of us need/want/ and are willing to pay for, is a well constructed bulkhead that fits and fits together with the rest of the body panels like the factory one did. Bertha, to answer your question, if I could get a new galvanized 2a bulkhead that someone like Ike Goss, Mike Smith or Matt Browne looked at and deemed it good. I'd pay $2500 to $3000. It would hurt but I'd never feel that I got taken. I choked at the $3200 English one because I can't see one before buying it. Then I can add about $600 for shipping. I won't spend that kind of money without seeing what I'm getting.
Jeff I hear everything you are saying and I appreciate the support. However I do feel that if someone can make a bulkhead there is a strong likely hood that they can be sold outside the US which will expand the market. I'll go back to my origional statement. I don't think that this can be a stand alone business and never have. I probably should borrow $1,000,000, hire some of the best fabricators I can find, buy the machinery, and make one or possibly 2 myself before I went broke. :thumb-up:
Jim

[Terrys]

From '86 to '99, I spent 2 weeks every quarter in the UK. I worked with an organization (Casting Developement Centre) in Sheffield that does tooling and product developement work for member organizations (Other foundries, or users of castings) Apart from the full foundry facilities, to 10 metric tonnes, we had a full maching centre, with several Ramboudi 5 axis mills. One of the jobs I distictly remember was the dies (M&F) for the first freelander roof panel. Land Rover was a corporate member, and that machining job cost them over 60K pounds. That was a very simple die, and did not have details for sunroof.
The die set to form the outer skin for 2A bulkhead wouldn't differ from an S3, but would still be more complex than the Freelander roof. In todays costs, I can easily see it running 75K pounds. That's just one of several diesets needed.
Maybe somone, with more enthusiasm and ambition than I, might inquire as to the whereabouts of the original tooling.

[Jim-ME]

I am no fabricator and don't even know enough about what is entailed in making bulkheads to be dangerous so I won't be using the correct terminology or even try. Morris in England has all the "stuff" needed to make bulkheads. Somebody had to manufacture the necessary "stuff" for him unless he got his hands on the origionals. This is probably highly over simplified but it would seem to me that a second set of "stuff" has to be easier to obtain than starting from scratch. The next logical step here in my mind is to try to find out who made Mr. Morris's "stuff" and once we knew the cost of a second set and only then could an informed decision be made as to if this pipedream is even possible. Like I said I'm sure I oversimplified what needs to be done and quite frankly I don't know where to even start much less what questions to ask to get the answers.
Jim

[Eric W S]

Remember, too, that anyone who constructs parts assumes significant liability for safety. So the tooling, metal, testing, etc., needs to be up to snuff. Certainly I would not want to buy a bulkhead that has not been tested, or from an unknown fabricator. It's a critical part of the car's structure.

Any discussion of inherent risk and the need for a policy will automatically make the project a true pipe dream. I think AIG is still underwriting Original Manufacture Auto parts. And it is extremely expenseive. I doubt the admitted market would even underwrite and then your at the mercy of folks like us in the surplus market. Our policy start at 10k. . .

[NC Rover]

I think it would be worth it. Sometimes things are not being fabricated or sold only because no one took the time or even thought of trying it. I bet there would be quite a few people who would be interested.

I just found out about a local land rover meeting in my area this weekend and I'm sure I will find a few who would be interested.

[One4adventure]

Hi all,

New to the board but not to rovers.....

I would say with some certainty the the "Stuff" meaning the press tooling used by rovers is still in production today for the defender bulkheads.

Having said that if you are serious about a low budget solution why not consider recycling the upper dashes, this will let you start fabbing in much the same way ECR did I would assume.

But if all new is the way you want go then get the pieces didgetized by a tool shop with a CMM and then ask them to cut a Kirksite tool, should be fine for 100 hits before you start thinking recut, only certain areas will wear so you can insert with tool steel and then bang away in the tool shops tryout press. Tool shops in Detroit area are hurting, if you want a good reference let me know.

Chris

[junkyddog11]

Hi all,

if you are serious about a low budget solution why not consider recycling the upper dashes,

....that's pretty much what we are doing already. I think the topic was all about making new.