Engine options?

[groundhog]

I know this subject has been beat to death, but I have 2 dilemmas. I have a 65 109 ready for a new engine. Brand new galvanised military frame, sals rear axle, galv bulkhead and breakfast and mostly new body panels. I want to use it for camping, hunting and daily driver. It will need to go about 75 mph and be able to hold hill speed and tow lightly. Am open to gas or diesel. Also have a 71 military p/u with sl. modified 2.25 and a crappy rebuilt tranny which shakes and pops out of 3rd. And to add to that, my Fairey O/D has about bit the dust. What to do? What to do?

[greenmeanie]

Well unless you want to ruin your galvy or redo it I think you can rule out the small block V8 conversions as they require some modification. If you want to kep the galvy on your frame and not change the engine mounts your choices are limited.

From memory you a 200 TDi will dropstraight in with some interesting intake/exhaust routing but it has an open timing belt cover. A defender unit will also fit but requires altered engine mounts. I think they would get you up to speed but you'd need to ask someone who's got one.

There's also a following for the Mercedes and cummins diesels that you will need to consult others on as I am no expert.

Then there is the traditional route of the Rover V8 but again I think it needs bulkhead mods. The Rover V8 does open up the option of using an LT95 (You need CV's up front then) for something akin to a Stage 1 set up.

A couple of us are looking at the old school route of putting in straight sixes. Both the Chevy 250/292 and the Ford 300 are good engines with a very loyal following in world of light trucks and drag racing. There are some interesting things like fuel injection or some wild speed bolt ons to get you that 300hp.

With any of these you have to consider your engine weight vs gearing vs the torque and power curves vs the strength of the series drive train.

I've just bought a 109SW with a Chevy 292 on a Scotty's adapter to the series box. Even although it seems to have lasted a decade or two in this guise I am a little concerned about longevity. In this case I am looking into sourcing a GM bellhousing & clutch to mount an NP435 on an adapter to the series transfer case. I don't think it will be cheap and the purists will no doubt hate it but it should be bomb proof.

TeriAnn will no doubt be along soon with some useful advice from her website.

Food for thought.

Cheers
Gregor

[yorker]

The only thing I would add is that even with a swap to a fulltime T case- LT95, or LT230 you don't necessarily NEED CVs, it is nice but look at all the US trucks that used the NP203 transfer case for example... They lacked CV jointed front axles and did ok. Also it is possible to convert the LT230 or LT95 to part time 4wd.

[junkyddog11]

From memory you a 200 TDi will dropstraight in with some interesting intake/exhaust routing but it has an open timing belt cover. A defender unit will also fit but requires altered engine mounts.

Before you get too excited this is not even close to accurate.

[Terrys]

Before you get too excited this is not even close to accurate.
Right. Only one of the two chassis mounts will line up. It also depends what the 200 Tdi came from. An ex Defender 200Tdi Turbo and ex-Disco 200 Tdi turbo mount completely differently. Open timing belt? What's that mean?

[SalemRover]

Before you get too excited this is not even close to accurate.
True true. But here is something that may do what you want. From our good friends in the UK.

http://forum.landrovernet.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69498&d=1202771576

-Jason

p.s. Check out seriestrek.com for an interesting Mercedes turbo diesel in a 109 project.
(http://www.difflock.com/magazine/download/DiffMag_Issue1.pdf)

[greenmeanie]

Before you get too excited this is not even close to accurate.

Sorry ,
Lost part of the sentence. I understand that the 200TDi from a Sherpa van is different from the LR units. The mounts line up but the manifolds are an issue and it has an open timing belt cover which gives the belt less protection if you plan on playing in the mud. The LR units have better manifold routing but the mounts require modification.

Take a poke around some of the LR UK forums for a more complete description.

Gregor

[Eric W S]

There are several great threads on the Series 2 Club forum about reto fitting a 200 TDi in a series. Looks like a complete pain in the ass for someone as un-talented as myself in the Fab area.

Interestingly, some folks forgo the turbo altogether...

Cummins if we're dreaming. That 4Bt that Tim Cooper built looked very nice indeed. . .

[yorker]

http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php?t=95060

[leafsprung]

That 4Bt that Tim Cooper built looked very nice indeed. . .

Timm would never use a 4 cylinder engine

[Eric W S]

Was that 6BT then? All I remember is that Cooper put a cummins in a 109. . .

[leafsprung]

Probably a 6AT, he is a 6AT fanboy. There are a few 6AT powered rovers floating around.

[Eric W S]

It's the one for sale on and off again on Pirate? Cool Truck. Wish I had that kind of money/space laying around...

[leafsprung]

I donno which one you mean, theres a lot of trucks on pirate, several with 6ATs, a couple done by timm.

[Eric W S]

Didn't know there was more than one!

[PH4]

What is pirate, as mentioned in above post?

[groundhog]

I don't mind having to do a little engine mount mods so actually a SBC would be an option for me. Also I am not averse to a 4 speed auto w/ OD to mate to it. I have a Ford 300 straight 6 in a 1988 F-150 Is this too long ? I don't really want to have to move the radiator out farther. I want to try to keep the exterior look the same.
thanks,
Bruce

[mfreeman]

What is pirate, as mentioned in above post?
Go to: http://www.pirate4x4.com/welcome1.php
Check out the forum section under Land Rover. Lots of knowledge there. Be advised many of the Pirateer's have an intollerant approach to elementary questions. Lurk before you leap.

[yorker]

I know the 300 Ford straight six has been done before. Ford 300 I6-NP435-Series Transfer case, maybe High Ratio Transfer case? Maybe Roverdrive? You have a lot of decisions ahead of you. A good thing! Good engine too.

[groundhog]

Is the 300 I6 still available new or would I have to source a junker? Also in my Ford it seems like the low rev range power sucks but when you rev it up its OK. would this present a problem with the series trans? On the 2.25 at least the low rpm torque is good.

[greenmeanie]

I don't mind having to do a little engine mount mods so actually a SBC would be an option for me. Also I am not averse to a 4 speed auto w/ OD to mate to it. I have a Ford 300 straight 6 in a 1988 F-150 Is this too long ? I don't really want to have to move the radiator out farther. I want to try to keep the exterior look the same.
thanks,
Bruce

The SBC is not just engine mounts. It requires bulkhead mods and probably gearbox and tunnel work too to take the power/torque.

I haven't done either but it is my understanding that the V8 is a lot more fab work than the Ford 300. If decide to go the SBC route you might want to consider a swap of your galvy bulkhead for a pritine non galvy plus cash. Seems a waste to cut up a good galvy part you know. I ain't volunteering yet but if you want to go that path give me a shout.

Cheers
Gregor

[yorker]

Is the 300 I6 still available new or would I have to source a junker? Also in my Ford it seems like the low rev range power sucks but when you rev it up its OK. would this present a problem with the series trans? On the 2.25 at least the low rpm torque is good.

Rebuilds are readily available. They were one of those engines that often outlived the rust prone body of the truck they were in too. They should be easy to find. The torque range may vary by year- carbed vs EFI, pollution controls etc...

[uralrover]

Why Not Rebuild your 2.25 Engine with after market bolt on mods, like a 9:1 Compression head, better rerouted intake and exhaust manifolds and BV rochester, carb with electronic pointless distributar. Add a hot cam and big bore exhaust and get about 113Bhp out of the 2.25 engine. Then rebuild your tranny, and add the better highway gearing into the Transfer case that gives a 32% gear reduction giving you your highway speeds and enough power to overtake the hill with confidence. No Modifying the frame, no great re-engineering of anything and all readily available on line or through various reputable Rover Parts Sources. As with the power upgrade you might want to consider adding better brakes (Disk brake conversion) and looking into Aluminum Radiators to handle your cooling needs.
Just a thaught....

[leafsprung]

because its just as expensive (if not more so), doesnt last very long and is only a meager increase. Still cant tow a load, still cant pull a real hill, still doesnt have much torque. I like stock trucks but their potential is limited.

[groundhog]

I already have the electronic distributer, shaved head, SU carb, big bore exhaust, headers, and a Fairey O/D, and it still is not that great. I can get a little above 70 if the wind is favorable, but it still drops to 35-40 on a steep hill. Has anybody else tried the 3.0 GM 4 cyl swap with the high range trans?
Bruce

[Paul Rossmann]

I know I will get a lot of grief for saying this, but who in their right mind would want to go over 70 in a Series? A Defender, yes, but a 35 yr old leaf sprung? Remember these cars were built as tractors originally... then as utility vehicles. Never as SUVs. Certainly one can modify the begeebers out of any vehicle, but then it is something different.

I would think that a rebuilt 2.25 (HP) and a rebuilt tranny with the high ratio transfer case would be as much engine as you would need (for what the Series was originally intended). A 200tdi would be nice if you could find one, then find the parts. Even then it is almost too much power for a Series, and unless you go non-turbo, will require extensive mods and cooling system revisions to install.

Dont mean to grandstand, but engine options are infinite. It's really what you want your car to do (and and your budget/mechanical ability) that will be your deciding factor.

[Paul Rossmann]

I know I will get a lot of grief for saying this, but who in their right mind would want to go over 70 in a Series? A Defender, yes, but a 35 yr old leaf sprung? Remember these cars were built as tractors originally... then as utility vehicles. Never as SUVs. Certainly one can modify the begeebers out of any vehicle, but then it is something different.

I would think that a rebuilt 2.25 (HP) and a rebuilt tranny with the high ratio transfer case would be as much engine as you would need (for what the Series was originally intended). A 200tdi would be nice if you could find one, then find the parts. Even then it is almost too much power for a Series, and unless you go non-turbo, will require extensive mods and cooling system revisions to install.

Dont mean to grandstand, but engine options are infinite. It's really what you want your car to do (and and your budget/mechanical ability) that will be your deciding factor.

[greenmeanie]

You are correct that these trucks are not going to challenge the land speed record. More power, however, is not necessarily about going faster; it's about driveability. An overhauled and hopped up 2.25 can pull a truck along at 70 mph on the flat but that is about all its got. It is when you hit the hills that they plain suck.

In my case I live at 1500ft but regularly head to the hills of northern AZ which get up to 9000ft and you are going up several long 6% grades. It is the ability to hold your speed on these that makes the difference. An engine with more power, more torque and preferrably a nice wide torque band will be a lot less stressed making these journeys.

This was the supposed reason for introducing the six pot to the US market. Some of us just want to take it a small step further to replace the LR lump with all its issues with something more reliable.

Cheers
Gregor

[groundhog]

I also am not concerned with getting any more speed. Holding it at 65-70 on the highway requires a fairly straight smooth road. I just want a bit more push on the hills which the 2.25 just won't give.
Bruce

[I Leak Oil]

Just came back from winter romp. About a 5 hour trip each way for me. Every time I take a trip like this I tell myself that I don't need more speed but keeping my speed constant at 60 to 65 would be great. Dropping down to 50 on the hills on I-95 just plain sucks! I'm seriously thinking of a GM 4.3 liter with the SM465 that I have sitting in my garage. Just need to find a way to adapt it to my series transfer case....
Jason T.

[Tim Smith]

Just came back from winter romp...
Same here. About 6 - 6.5 hours for me.

What I couldn't understand was that in Maine (both directions) I had to hold the truck pretty much to the metal to keep 55 - 60. But once I got back into Mass and CT, I could drop back to maybe 1/2 throttle and hold 65 - 70 and at times had it up to 75 to pass some traffic on the down hills.

What I don't get is that I couldn't keep up my speed the further north I got. I thought cold air was supposed to help facilitate an efficient burn... Could it be that the colder air is denser and creating more drag on the truck? :confused:

Did you notice the same thing Jason? Any one else?

By the way, my current 2.25 is pretty stock other than the NRP exhaust, weber 34ICH with a brandy new K&N filter on an 8.1 head. Everything else is as it should be from Solihull. I'm also riding on 33" tires so my real speed was probably higher than the speedo was telling me. In case any one is wondering for comparison purposes.

[TeriAnn]

I know I will get a lot of grief for saying this, but who in their right mind would want to go over 70 in a Series? A Defender, yes, but a 35 yr old leaf sprung?

Funny now that mention it most of my freeway cruising is done around 60 MPH think mostly out of habit and to help keep fuel consumption down.

But I do know for a fact that Series can be quite stable around 75 & 80 MPH with tight steering connections, balanced tyres and a proper alignment to withing factory specs. My Land Rover used to get a little shaky much above 60 MPH until I had the front end properly aligned to within factory specs.


I would think that a rebuilt 2.25 (HP) and a rebuilt tranny with the high ratio transfer case would be as much engine as you would need
Does your vehicle have that combination? For high range, the ratio at the axle with a high ratio kit is very close to a 3.54 R&P and significantly higher than driving around in overdrive all the time. It is my belief that high ratio transfercases are fine for folks with a significantly more powerful than stock engine and OK for folks who have a "performance" 2.25 engine in a topless 88 and lives on the flats near sea level.

My 109 is powered by a Ford 302 and I love my Ashcroft high ratio kit. But you need the power to push the gears.




A 200tdi would be nice if you could find one, then find the parts. Even then it is almost too much power for a Series, and unless you go non-turbo, will require extensive mods and cooling system revisions to install.

I assume by "almost too much power for a Series" you were referring to the gearbox and not the entire vehicle. If yes, I would like to mention that the 200tdi/series gearbox is a common combination and people who are running this combination seem to think that the box can handle the engine. If you are referring to the 10 spline Rover rear axles, the 8:1 2.25L engine in stock form is already too powerful for the axles.

But anyway the 200dti into Series swap is very common in the UK and the conversion is well documented. It is a comparatively simple swap but it does require some fabrication, especially with new radiator mounts & exhaust routing.

[Saxondog]

Ditto on all the above more power arguments

Also a responsive gas pedal can be a just as effective safety device as a good set of brakes!!

[Tim Smith]

Also a responsive gas pedal can be a just as effective safety device as a good set of brakes!!
Especially if you are the Bandit and Smokey is on your tail...

[yorker]

I'm seriously thinking of a GM 4.3 liter with the SM465 that I have sitting in my garage. Just need to find a way to adapt it to my series transfer case....
Jason T.

It has been done before- ask Ike. I wouldn't mind a SM465 to Series T case adapter either.

[O'Brien]

here's another link to an engine swap. I can't read the german, but i think the pictures will explain A LOT about it. might not be the direction anyone here wants to go in however...:eek:

http://www.chromjuwelen.com/en/szene/landrover-der-dragstripdefender.html

[LaneRover]

If you go fast enough it won't high center on anything!

[groundhog]

What about the 3.0 4 cyl GM engine swap, anybody have any experience or specs on it?
Bruce

[Tim Smith]

If you go fast enough it won't high center on anything!
True but then you risk high siding your truck.
:eek:

[JFX]

Hello Everyone,

My name is John, and I've been a lurker for a while now.

I researched the diesel options, looked and searched some more. I came across this last week. No affliation whatsoever.

www.roverpartsused.com (http://www.roverpartsused.com)


They have a 2.8 diesel. Not sure if it is the one that ECR used to use or not.


I am currently looking at a '68 88 (although I really would like a 109). Is this a viable engine option?

Thanks,

John

[Jim-ME]

Does anyone know anything about the folks in Montana either good or bad?
Jim

[JFX]

Does anyone know anything about the folks in Montana either good or bad?
Jim

I was going to ask that question, but I didn't want to offend anyone.;)


-John

[O'Brien]

that's creed evans right?

everything i've read says to run, run away now. FWIW i have never dealt with the person, and I am not trying to spread bad info around. but it wasn't hard to use google at all.

http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/f2/big-sky-rover-21820/

http://www.landroverexchange.com/forum/messages/18846.html

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/088/ripoff0088333.htm

[JFX]

Ah, I see......what a shame. Thanks for the information.:thumb-up:


I would like to find out more about those engines though.


-John

[Eric W S]

It's International's 2.8 engine. Derived from Land Rover's 300tdi and built in Brazil. Google it. ECR had a page on their site about it as well. And they have a page where they put the original Land Rover 300tdi into a Series III.

Good reading
http://www.britrest.com/modules/content/index.php?id=2

Also a good site.
http://www.mdengineering.co.uk/index.php?act=category&cat_id=1

It's not cheap at all. The M&D Defender kit is around $11k USD without shipping from the UK. You can buy a really nice truck for that amount or the Chevy v-8 and transmission of your choice as well.

EwS

[JFX]

Eric,


Thanks for the links.


-John

[Eric W S]

No prob. There's more out there if you're seriously considering the motor as well. google Yahoo HS 2.8 Diesel forums. Lots o stuff on conversions.

Also check out SeriesTrek.com as well. Jim has an adapter for Merc Benz Diesel. Comes very highly rated. Might have to break away from my rivet ccounter mind set and explore this option.