knock knock

[autoguy]

well got ludwijg running and idling, but under power/load he knocks something fierce, he has a new 12 volt distributor, and coil, a rebuilt carb and has been converted to 12 volt from 24 volt, he also has little to no power, my vespa goes faster in first gear :)

he knocks in gears, 1-3 i don't know about 4th, and knocks in reverse too and i dont think it is the zenith warp, because the air/fuel mix works when you adjust it :)

me and dad are thinkin it is a burnt valve or a valve spring has come unseated or a valve has become unseated, or worn

he is missing you can feel it in the exhaust, we have not taken off the valve cover yet, that is on sundays agenda :)

any ideas what could be causing the knock

i had a nice bit of road rage today too and almost ran over a saturn car, would have been his fault though :) i was cussing something fierce too, the guy thought he was in a hurry as i was backing down a hill on our block and there was a car blocking the other side of the lane, i also realized i had taken my handgun for the ride but not my cellphone, i had fun even though he was not running right :)

[Firemanshort]

What is the chance of a leaky headgasket allowing blow by and spark share between cylinders? I had one do that to me once. It messed about knocking for a while before it got worse (really worse) and I finally figured out what it was.

[I Leak Oil]

Do a compression test and a leakdown to try to figure out the mechanical conditon of the motor. Knock from engines can be ignition related or mechanical in nature. Start by figuring out which it is and go from there. Removing the valve cover to check the valve train or the oil pan to check the crank and rod bearings is pretty easy to do.
When you find the problem you can cheer yourself up with a good KnockKnock joke!
Jason T.

[S11A]

Jason had a good point about ignition. I am guessing you timed it when you installed the new dizzy, but doublecheck to make sure the dizzy is tightened down, the advance mechanism is working properly, etc.

Does it knock ar all RPMs, or just under load?

Is the dizzy vacuum advance or other?

This is probably the easiest thing to check of all the good suggestions above, so on the day after the St. Patrick's day party, that is where I would start :)

[greenmeanie]

i also realized i had taken my handgun for the ride but not my cellphone, i had fun even though he was not running right :)

What were you planning to do? Put her out of her misery if she couldn't get back up the hill?

Cheers
Gregor

[autoguy]

FS, I had not thought about it possibly being a head gasket, I have a new head gasket

J, thanks, I will run a compression check too, LOL about the knock knock joke :)

s2 it only knocks under load only, it has a vacume advance dizzy :)

GM, woulda put him out of his missery if I could not have gotten back home :) nope I had my gun on in the front yard :) for good measure

[autoguy]

well mother nature decided i needed a break from working on my rover, its raining and is supposed to rain tomorrow too :mad:

if i do end up needing a head gasket should i go with the copper or the composite gasket ? i thought i had a head gasket but i looked and i dont

[Momo]

Composite. Torque it once and forget it

[autoguy]

Composite. Torque it once and forget it

thanks, composite it is :)

well it stopped raining and we ran a compression test, the front two cylinders where showing 70-90 psi with little resistance from the hand crank turned 5 times, the back two pegged at 100 right off (our compression gauge only goes to 100 psi

so i think its off with Ludwig's head and he gets a new gasket :)

should i order the head gasket set from BP or just the head gasket, valve cover gasket and manifold to exhaust gasket ? it will be $50 for the gasket set but i think that is with the copper gasket

what gaskets am i going to need ?

he does not smoke much at start up, nor does he knock at idle

i checked the dizzy and it was not loose

[S11A]

The knocking under load can be may things, but ignition advance is a common culprit.

Maybe check the vacuum hose for leaks? If it is not new-ish, maybe just replace it.

Also check to see if you have vacuum. If you do not have a vacuum guage, a quick test is to use a small (1/2" x 1/2") piece of paper that should stick to the hose after you pop it off the dizzy and are revving it a bit. That will at least tell you if you are not getting vacuum (something clogged inside).

Also, I haven't worked on a Series dizzy, but on other makes that have advance weights and springs, those can be a problem if they are incorrect.

[Tim Smith]

...i also realized i had taken my handgun for the ride but not my cellphone...
Note to self: Don't cut old Rovers or Vespas off when driving through Kansas City. :D

My guess is it's the timing but not being able to see the truck run, you might find different.

[autoguy]

s2a,I will check the vacume advance, thanks

TS, LOL :) I will check the timing again, the notch on the flywheel lined up with the notch closest to the drivers wing when we looked at it, is that where it should line up ? we have not hooked up the timing light yet either, and its raining something fierce today and supposed to rain all day :(

happy st.patricks day everyone :) :cheers: :gulp:

[Tim Smith]

...the notch on the flywheel lined up with the notch closest to the drivers wing when we looked at it, is that where it should line up ? we have not hooked up the timing light yet either, and its raining something fierce today and supposed to rain all day :(
To be honest with you, I'm not sure. I haven't taken a timing light to mine in such a long time that I've forgotten which mark is where. You may also find some timing teeth on the front of the motor as well, but again I'm not sure. I usually time it by ear.


...happy st.patricks day everyone :)
Happy St. Pattys!
:cheers:

[autoguy]

recon i will look in the manual about timing

how do i time my rover by ear ? i have heard of the guinness on the wing trick but have not tried it :)

:cheers: :gulp:

[Tim Smith]

Once it's running, it's pretty simple really.

You just loosen up the distributor while it's idling (and you've made sure you aren't having any carb issues) and retard/advance until it runs the smoothest and then tighten it down. Go for a test drive and if it's still pinging under load, go ahead and retard it a few degrees more. Keep doing this till it's right.

Sooner or later you will find the best combination where it doesn't ping under load but still has enough power to get out of it's own way.

Well, sort of... :p

[autoguy]

thanks, :) I'm guessing turning the dizzy clockwise is advance right ? would the timing being off cause the low compression on the front two cylinders ?

[Tim Smith]

thanks, :) I'm guessing turning the dizzy clockwise is advance right ? would the timing being off cause the low compression on the front two cylinders ?
Think of the rotor as turning clockwise. So to advance the timing, you want to make the cap hit the rotor sooner which means you actually turn the cap/dizzy counter clockwise. Advanced is naturally the opposite.

Low compression could have other effects but shouldn't effect timing.

Good luck and tell us how it goes.

[autoguy]

Think of the rotor as turning clockwise. So to advance the timing, you want to make the cap hit the rotor sooner which means you actually turn the cap/dizzy counter clockwise. Advanced is naturally the opposite.

Low compression could have other effects but shouldn't effect timing.

Good luck and tell us how it goes.

the compression shouldn't be effected by the timing ?

thanks for telling me how to advance the timing :)

I will keep yall updated, I still think it is the head gasket too

[yorker]

http://www.bayourovers.com/trick19.html

[autoguy]

http://www.bayourovers.com/trick19.html

thanks for the link :)

[daveb]

autoguy, you should spend some time reading up on engine fundamentals.

compression or the lack thereof is in no way related to ignition timing.

a compression check should be done with the engine up toi runnig temperature with the throttle blocked open and the ignition disabled.

crank six or seven times and take the highest reading.

your readings of 30% or so difference do not indicate a head gasket problem.

do the compression check again (using the starter motor this time) and then do it a third time, putting a squirt or two of oil into the cylinder to seal the rings. take note of any difference in the readings. any major discrepancy indicates wear in the bores.

your readings should be within 10-15% at absolute worst. anything greater than that is indicative of a larger problem and should be rectified.

typically a blown head gasket will be between cylinder resulting in two or more adjacent cylinders showing very low compression like 30 psi.

like my ailing 4 cylinder that is now 150-50-50-50...

:(





thanks for the link :)

[dmurrell]

My best guess is you are way out of timing, as I had the same symptoms once. The hold down on the dizzy came loose on a long drive and let the dizzy turn to about 90 degrees out of time. The engine knocked in all gears and at virtually all speeds. It freaked me out, until I checked it.

Anyway, if you are timing the engine after a conversion, you should use the rocker arms to determine TDC for #1 and set your dizzy accordingly. I'm not sure about the flywheel notch, but I think if you use that you could be 180 degrees out of time since the flywheel turns twice per complete engine cycle.

Just my 2 cents.

[Tim Smith]

Okay, so I had a few minutes and was looking through the bayourovers site. Great stuff there by the way. :thumb-up:


Rotation clockwise advances the timing, counter clockwise retards it.
I read the line above and thought, "Hang on a tick, I wrote something different."


Think of the rotor as turning clockwise. So to advance the timing, you want to make the cap hit the rotor sooner which means you actually turn the cap/dizzy counter clockwise. Advanced is naturally the opposite.
Looks like I wasn't making sense on the RN board (again). My heart was in the right place but my advice was confusing. So read the bayourovers version of what direction does what and you won't need a stiff drink quite as fast. :p

Don't forget to let us know how it goes with the knock knock(s).

Cheers,
Tim

[autoguy]

autoguy, you should spend some time reading up on engine fundamentals.

compression or the lack thereof is in no way related to ignition timing.

a compression check should be done with the engine up toi runnig temperature with the throttle blocked open and the ignition disabled.

crank six or seven times and take the highest reading.

your readings of 30% or so difference do not indicate a head gasket problem.

do the compression check again (using the starter motor this time) and then do it a third time, putting a squirt or two of oil into the cylinder to seal the rings. take note of any difference in the readings. any major discrepancy indicates wear in the bores.

your readings should be within 10-15% at absolute worst. anything greater than that is indicative of a larger problem and should be rectified.

typically a blown head gasket will be between cylinder resulting in two or more adjacent cylinders showing very low compression like 30 psi.

like my ailing 4 cylinder that is now 150-50-50-50...

:(

or maybe, not :) i was thinking that timing did not have anything to do with compression, and the above way you stated to check compression is how we did it basically , we read in the green bible how to check the compression, at first we started off with using the starter but got erratic readings on the gauge, it is a cheap gauge in the first place :) so we decided to use the hand crank :) i pulled the coil wire off the dizzy but did not block the throttle open

we did not try the oil trick though, we will this weekend if its not too cold :) :cheers:


dmurrell,i did not do the 12 volt conversion, so im thinking the timing is off too :)

Tim Smith, its all good :) i printed out the section on timing by ear, and we have a nice hill here at the house i can run my rover up :) :cheers:

[autoguy]

well played with the dizzy, the points gap was off a fair bit, and the vacume advance is not working I dont think, there was no suction when Ludwig was running, rotated the dizzy and it is acting like its catching on a notch or something, I did not put the dizzy in or adjust the points originaly

we advanced the timing and than retarded it and got no result, so we are thinking the vacume advance or aliens :)

[autoguy]

well we got to looking at the dizzy and looked at the picts in the book and apparently my dizzy has jumped timing 180 the vacuum unit is facing the radiator not the bulkhead like it should be :) so thats on tomorrows agenda is to flip the dizzy back to where it should be :)

[Tim Smith]

well we got to looking at the dizzy and looked at the picts in the book and apparently my dizzy has jumped timing 180 the vacuum unit is facing the radiator not the bulkhead like it should be :) so thats on tomorrows agenda is to flip the dizzy back to where it should be :)
After you do that try painting the truck or washing the windows or just plain surprising the truck. :D Sorry thats an old kids in the hall reference but do make sure the neighbors kid isn't playing in the engine bay.

The way the distributor sits on the block will tell you nothing about the actual timing on the truck because the rotor can be set in any number of degrees different that what you will see on another truck.

The engine doesn't sound like this, does it?



There should be a you tube video up above. Oh well, here it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQR6jo7Cdeg

[TSR53]

video

[autoguy]

After you do that try painting the truck or washing the windows or just plain surprising the truck. :D Sorry thats an old kids in the hall reference but do make sure the neighbors kid isn't playing in the engine bay.

The way the distributor sits on the block will tell you nothing about the actual timing on the truck because the rotor can be set in any number of degrees different that what you will see on another truck.

The engine doesn't sound like this, does it?



There should be a you tube video up above. Oh well, here it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQR6jo7Cdeg

yes the engine sounds like that under load, but not at idle :) if it sounded like that constant i would think a bearing

i saw the picts of the dizzy in the green bible :)

when dad advanced the timing via the rotor, there was no change, but you could tell when he retarded the timing, he said the dizzy was not moving smoothly when he advanced the timing, that it felt like it was catching on a notch or something, dad advanced the timing and than drove ludwig up our hill a bit and he still knocked worse than a diesel :) maybe he has an identity crisis and thinks he is a diesel :D :confused:

any ideas on how to surprise the truck ? i was thinking about going out there late at night neked and giving him the goat and hitting on the motion sensitive flood lights for a good surprise :eek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting... click link for the explanation of the goat :) NOT WORK SAFE

[Tim Smith]

yes the engine sounds like that under load, but not at idle :) if it sounded like that constant i would think a bearing
Damn! I'm starting to think you might have a bad rod making all the noise. You don't hapen to have a camera or camera phone that you can get of the engine sound to post on U-tub, do you?

The timing ping is a definite pinging engine sound not a knock like that video.

[autoguy]

Damn! I'm starting to think you might have a bad rod making all the noise. You don't hapen to have a camera or camera phone that you can get of the engine sound to post on U-tub, do you?

The timing ping is a definite pinging engine sound not a knock like that video.

aye I have a DVD camcorder :) and can try to take video if the camcorder is charged :)

[autoguy]

popped the valve cover and inspected the rods, only 3 where loose but not very loose, and they where all straight, dad spun them an they spun free and straight

we are going to play with the dizzy next and go from there, I will try to get a video of the knock, either Thursday or Friday :)

I think I either need to get the engine exorcised or do a ritual goat sacrafice to get the gremlens out :)