she's quiet but only resting...

[andrew]

Hi folks,

I have a 1970 SIIa 88”, gas. On rare occasions, she will turn over but not catch. When this happens, I jiggle the appropriate wires, and she starts. This was a fine solution for a long time. Then, she died when my wife was driving her, and I had to trek across town to jiggle wires. This was a pain in my butt, so I replaced 2 wires: from the coil to the distributor and from the coil to the fusebox. She was happy again (and so was my wife).

But, alas, less than 2 weeks later a new problem (that is likely related): no joy when trying to start her. Nothing, not turning over, etc. Dim lights. Ok, so I got a new battery to replace the 6 year old one in her, thinking that was reasonable. Next, following a brief blip on the first attempt after the new battery, she now does nothing – no lights, not turning over, completely dead (but a nice new battery nonetheless!). Fuses are intact, but nothing is live.

I was thinking that if the battery didn’t solve things and she didn't turn over it was likely the ignition switch, but now that nothing at all is happening I’m thinking it’s something else. I haven’t yet crawled around, but I’m confident the ground is good, and I know the battery is good.

Ideas?

Thanks in advance.

[SafeAirOne]

I'd do the following:

1) Try jumper cables- I'd want to eliminate the possibility of a bad "new" battery first. It's easy and cheap. Failing that, I'd:

2) Check the battery wires and connectors. I can't remember what year they swithced over, but assuming that your 1970 vehicle is NEGATIVE EARTH, re-ensure the negative is grounded well. Also that the positive terminal is on the positive lead and that the negative goes to ground (it happens...). If all is OK:

3) Check the starter solenoid wires. Every single electron flows to the solenoid before being distributed to the rest of the circuits through the fat brown wire. My rover died when I was driving it one day. It turned out that the big brown wire that supplies power to everything finally corroded off at the base of the connecter. The connector was still nutted onto the starter solenoid with the wire SEEMINGLY attached, but in my darkish garage, I could just barely see a little arcing there. When I touched the wire, it came off in my hand.

I don't think that the wire replacement you did is related, since the starter wont crank. Otherwise, I'd suggest that you might have done something to one of the power supply connections at the fuse "box". If the starter doesn't crank AND the horn doesn't blow (if equipped), it'll probably be the battery or its cables or the ground strap between the starter and engine or engine and chassis.

See the bottom schematic at: http://www.roversnorth.com/store/images/product/large/LR-page83.pdf

Good Luck and let us know what you find!

[O'Brien]

all good advice from mark!

andrew - where are you in southern california? there's a couple others on here in the Lost angeles area, maybe we can give you a hand.:thumb-up:

[siii8873]

You might have a ground that is slowly draining your battery over time thus the not starting after a period of time. Run a jumper cable accross the solenoid to see if it starts if so not battery. Also check starter ground.

[LaneRover]

After the quick 'blip' of the starter and then nothing with the new battery, does nothing else come on at all after that? Also, if nothing else will come on does it eventually come back if you let it sit for awhile?

If so, and everything works fine unless you try to start it then I would suspect a bad starter.

[andrew]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

To answer LaneRover's query, nothing comes on after sitting a bit. And, yes SafeAirOne, mine is negative earth (and grounded appropriately; but always a logical place to start!).

I crawled around inside and underneath last night (2am, headlamp on) and noted a few things: (1) at the frontmost connection of the starter solenoid (where the positive battery lead connects) there was a small crack in the spade terminal headed toward the driver's side (to the horn, I think, or is that one to the relay?) -- in fact, that spade terminal broke off when I tried to pull off the connector and (2) a frayed starter ground strap (probably still good though). All other grounds/connections appear fine, and I tightened the starter connection just in case (from the solenoid to the starter).

So, based on people's advice, my perusal of the wiring schematic, and the other symptoms, I've ordered a new starter solenoid just in case and will also replace the starter ground strap. And, I couldn't find the original 2-sided spade terminal that goes on the front bolt of the solenoid (one large end, one small end), so I'll clip, strip, and crimp new connectors on each wire there and re-attach to the solenoid when it arrives. I'll post with the results in a few days...

And, O'Brien, I'm in Santa Barbara by the way, but thanks for the offer!

[Daurie]

About a month ago I had nearly the same symptoms as you. I searched and searched, scratched my head, kicked the tires alot and in the process of checking over things a second time I tightened the ground strap and gave it a good twist back and forth to ensure good continuity and viola she was back to life. I previously gave the ground wire a good visual and even shook it a bit to ensure it was tight, and it was tight!! Point is even though a connection may seem good corrosion between surfaces can impede flow. Get a voltage meter and ensure you get good readings from battery pos to anything metal other than the neg terminal.

My .02

Good luck!

[SafeAirOne]

So, based on people's advice, my perusal of the wiring schematic, and the other symptoms, I've ordered a new starter solenoid just in case and will also replace the starter ground strap.

It couldn't hurt to replace the solenoid (except economically), but if nothing else electrical is working, then I don't think the solenoid is the culprit. If the solenoid was bad, the other electrical things should still work. The only role the solenoid plays for everything else besides the starter is as a handy post to link all those positive connectors together (all three of 'em).

If one of the brown wires/connectors (power feeds to the horn and voltage regulator) on the solenoid are bad, the starter should still crank.

Other than a short somewhere which is draining the battery or multiple items failing at precisely the same moment, the only logical thing that could kill all electricity flow would be poor conductivity through the main grounds (including the negative battery terminal/cable) or in the positive cable between the battery and starter solenoid. I don't think it'll be the ground strap between the starter and the engine block because the other electrical items (like the lights, horn, wipers, etc.) do not rely on that gound strap for continuity. That and dirty/corroded/faulty battery terminals.

A cheap (about $15) radio shack or wal-mart multi-meter would be your best friend in helping you troubleshoot this. You want the kind that beeps when you test for continuity) First disconnect the POSITIVE battery cable (leave the negative connected. Check for good grounding by setting the meter to ohms. Most meters will have a setting where it'll beep when you touch the probes together, completing a circuit. Use this setting. Put one probe on the NEGATIVE POST of the battery. Touch the other probe to bare metal on the chassis. scrape it aroungd a bit if you need to make a good contact. The meter should beep. If not, try to find a better spot on the chassis. Do the same on the engine. If you can't get it to beep, you have a bad ground circuit. The engine, chassis and NEGATIVE battery terminal should all be electrically connected.

If everything checks O.K. on the ground side, reconnect the positive battery terminal and set the meter to 20 volts DC. Make sure it's not still set to ohms, 'cause you could fry the cheap wal-mart meter. Take the red probe and put it on the big post on the starter solenoid. Ground the black probe to a good metal spot on the engine and chasis. The meter should read 12-14 volts. If not find a better ground for the black probe. If still no voltage, the positive battery cable or its connector or the battery itself is bad/corroded.

[andrew]

I replaced the starter solenoid, the negative battery ground, and the positive cable as well (and the starter ground and battery before). She fired right up.

Based on people's comments, I suspect the correct answer was: negative battery ground strap or positive lead. That said, as a word of warning to everyone -- both looked absolutely fine, they were tight, and jiggling them did no good. Note below that half way through this I specifically checked each one to confirm they were tight and looked to be in good shape. You never know I guess.

Now, though, the hazards don't turn on, so that's the next thing to track down...

Thanks everyone.