Curious about crash damage in a series

[thixon]

I've seen a number of comments in posts indicating that most here believe that a wreck involving a series truck and another vehicle will go badly for the other (non series) vehicle. That is of course if the frame of said series truck is in new/good shape.

I'm not disputing this, I've just never known anyone with a series to be unlucky enough to be involved in an accident with another vehicle on the street.

A rear-ender would obviously not go well for the offending vehicle running up the tail pipe of a series truck. However, I would'nt be so confident about a t-bone or head on.

So, I'm curious. Has anyone here ever had this happen? If so, how did it work out for your truck, and the other car/truck?

[Mercedesrover]

I wouldn't want to get hit in one. Series trucks are a lot of things, but safe in a crash isn't one of the things that come to mind.

Crappy seatbelts, if any, unless you've upgraded to something else
No high back seats (Unless you've installed them yourself)
No crumple-zones in the front or the rear
No side impact protection at all
Steel dash (I, II, IIIA)
Weak roofs and upper sides - no rollover protection
Etc., etc....

I have rock sliders on my 88" and am putting them on my 109 tonight for really no other reason than to protect the occupants should I get slammed in the side.

[Bostonian1976]

this is one of the key things that keeps me from using my Series as an everyday vehicle - seen too many people flying around Boston slamming into other people/things

[greenmeanie]

Well from experience you can role an 88 at 40 mph and it holds up rather well. Don't ask how I know that one.

I've been thumped up the back end at a stop sign by a Dodge pick up. This was at very low speed. He lost every panel on the front drivers side of his truck. The series tub folded like tissue paper, the rear corner of the cross member bent and everything stopped when it ecountered the box frame. In a serious collision don't expect a series body to stop anything - about the only protection you get is if you are inside the footprint of the chassis ladder.

Finally I left a nice deep groove in an Escalade as he was on his mobile and changed lanes into me. I caught him with the front bumper and crease from his driver's door on back to the rear wheel arch and the OEM bumper didn't fold. It wasn't however, a serious crash test.

I forget his name but there was a series owner killed on the I10 outside Phoenix back in the late 90's because he was rear ended. My understanding is a snapped back/neck because of oem seats but someone may know better.

I'm with Jim on the sliders - that is a huge safety improvement. High back seats and decent seat belts are only common sense for anything other than a show truck. The simple thing is you are not driving a tank - it is a 40 odd year old truck that just doesn't meet modern safety standards. If nothing else the solid steel spike of a steering column should get you thinking.

I'm sure I'm misquoting but "The best safety system in a car is the driver."

Cheers
Gregor

Oh, I use mine as a daily driver and to rumble down the I10 to Tucson regularly.

[thixon]

[quote=greenmeanie]

I'm sure I'm misquoting but "The best safety system in a car is the driver."

quote]
Green,
Agreed. The seats and belts are a no brainer. I'm planning on going the same route you did in your 109 with the bestop highback jeep seats. By the way, do you have another photo or two of what you did? I deleted the ones you sent me a while back (accidental). I've also toyed with the idea of a cage of some sort, but to do that I'd have to buy a bender (damn, another tool).

The sliders are a good idea. I hav'nt decided if I'm going to build my own, or just plunk down the cash for a set. I've never seen a pre-made set up close. Are they pretty substantial? Putting this truck back together has already been more invloved than i originally thought/planned (party because I keep finding other things to work on), so I may just buy a set.

[ACP30470]

I've been a paramedic and firefighter for the better part of a quarter century. My specialty is motor vehicle extrication, Capt of my departments Jaws Of Life (heavy rescue) crew for the past 12 years.

The differences in motor vehicles designed 30 - 40 years ago (series LR) versus modern technology (crumple and impact zones) is like comparing apples to oranges. A well maintained series vehicle (solid frame etc) could probably withstand a serious impact but kinetic forces from the crash would have the driver bouncing around like a pinball. The modern design would collapse and wrap itself around the driver. I have responded to MVC's where the car had minor damage and was driveable (1970's era) but the driver DOA. Responding to more recent MVC's with a car totally trashed, having to spend 45 min to an hour on extrication only to have the driver walk out of the ER a few hours later with minor injuries.

Drive defensably, drive safe, drive smart, and realize the enviroment that a series rover is intended for. Be ever vigilant when mixing it up in traffic.

The real question is driver/passenger survivability, because vehicles are made every day and can be replaced, we cannot.

[jp-]

My brother crashed our 109" when I was about 16. He hit two 6" steel concrete filled poles (that were buried 1’ deep in more concrete) and a no parking sign. I have no idea how fast he was going and he never talked about the wreck. It was also the last time that he ever drove the Rover. The first pole hit the OEM bumper just about dead center and Vee’d it. The second pole hit closer to the left frame horn. The left horn bent down about 1” and the short tie rod snapped as the poles went under the vehicle. No body panels were damaged at all (not even the front apron panel). The poles were destroyed. The Rover drove home, with one front wheel steering. My brother was not injured.

The mangled No Parking sign hangs on my wall.

[SafeAirOne]

This isn't a terribly good example because it didn't involve another vehicle, just a 6" diameter maple tree:

When I was a teenager, I was doing something foolish in my '69 88": It was "cool" to have as much mud as possible on your truck in high school and...[I'll skip the really foolish stuff and cut straight to the end of the story]...the rover, in reverse, bounced up out of the muddy rut and straight into the maple tree.

When I tried to get out to check for damage, my driver's door wouldn't open. The top was off, so I climbed out and checked it out--an 18" section of chassis was broken off above the left rear wheel!

I learned a lot about rover chassis that day (and doing risky/stupid things in your only mode of transportation). It may have looked fine on the outside, but the entire chassis was a crumple zone on my first rover.

[PH4]

Glad you started this thread. I drive both my 109 SW and 109 regular without top as daily drivers. I have three point retractable belts in both LRs. Other than the addition of highback seats and a roll cage (not bar) I cannot think of how you could make a LR come even remotely close to a modern Volvo or similar car. Having said that I am not sure from what I have unfortunatly seen you would be much better in a late model 15 passenger van, S10 Blazer etc.

Would like to see any pics of roll cages installed in 109 SWs or Regulars.

[Tim Smith]

Here are some interesting test videos:
Fifth Gear - When an SUV rams a smaller car

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Fifth Gear Crash Test Renault Espace vs Land Rover Discovery

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Fifth Gear Smart Car Crash Test

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The mitsu v.s. civic video is kind of an eye opener. Although I'd rather be in the 4x4, I'm not sure I would be quite the same after realizing the consequences to the civic occupants.

[daveb]

there was a guy in ottawa that got t-boned by a "yank tank" in his 88. I saw photos of the aftermath, it got hit on the passenger side. he survived but was knocked unconscious by the rock slider flying up and into the car...

I'll try to find the photos.

I know two people who were rear ended by large pickups, one was driving a ROW 110 and the other was driving a 109 SW. Both LR vehicles emerged from those encounters virtually unscathed and the offending vehicle was totaled.

Another guy in ottawa's father died when he was driving an 88 that was rear ended by a large truck. Similar story here, forget whose vehicle it was but the 88 was launched into the air, forget what the occupant outcome was.

There's a site somewhere on the web by a chap who was paralyzed when his 109SW laid on its side on a highway and was subsequently hit on the underside by an 18 wheeler. The pictures showed the chassis was bent nearly in half.

I think the key is in having a solid chassis. Chassis that are sufficiently strong for daily driving and even offroading may reveal themselves to be quite thin during a wreck of any kind.

rgrds
dave



I wouldn't want to get hit in one. Series trucks are a lot of things, but safe in a crash isn't one of the things that come to mind.

Crappy seatbelts, if any, unless you've upgraded to something else
No high back seats (Unless you've installed them yourself)
No crumple-zones in the front or the rear
No side impact protection at all
Steel dash (I, II, IIIA)
Weak roofs and upper sides - no rollover protection
Etc., etc....

I have rock sliders on my 88" and am putting them on my 109 tonight for really no other reason than to protect the occupants should I get slammed in the side.

[msggunny]

88's

You are sitting on top of 10 gallons of fuel that is unprotected from side impact.

Ever see a Ford Pinto get rear-ended?

[jp-]

I also wanted to add, that anytime the vehicle comes to a stop in an accident, the likelihood of injury goes up dramatically. If, in my brother's case, the poles had stopped the Rover then I believe he would have been injured as his momentum would have propelled him into the steering wheel / bulkhead. By continuing forward motion, the impact was expanded over a greater length of time. Imagine hitting a concrete wall, the vehicle cannot continue forward, so you must. As someone else mentioned, it's all steel on the inside.

And what is a "yank tank?"

[LaneRover]

And what is a "yank tank?"

Well, since it was unlikely that he got hit by an M1 Abrams tank I would say that a 'Yank Tank' refers to any BIG American made car. Of course to me it conjures up memories of the huge Mercury Marquis Stationwagons that we had when I was a kid back in the 70's. The amazing thing was that Dad could still hit us when we were all the way in the back and he was driving!

[daveb]

And what is a "yank tank?"

:)

well, if you are a simpsons fan, think "Canyonero."

if not, well, H2 or 3, Escalade, Ford Exploder, Navigator, Expedition, Suburbia, any of the above.

[greenmeanie]

In the UK Yank Tank is a reference to the oversize cars built in the US. Especially those ones with no handling, pleather interiors, and those wire spoke hub caps. It stems from the 70's and 80's. If you think of anything ever built by Cadillac you've got the idea.

SUV's are another thing entirely. We usually just refer to anything with a Hummer badge as G^y. In the UK SUV's are referred to as Chelsea Tractors.

Cheers
Gregor

[JimCT]

50 mph, black ice and a crowned road. Dog and I were fine but beat up. Be careful of all the things like high lift jacks, chains and tools one has unsecured. They all went flying. Jim

[LaneRover]

As you can see the roof is a crumple zone....

[SafeAirOne]

As you can see the roof is a crumple zone....

Yeah...I was just looking at that. I thought the roof might have held up a LITTLE (not much) better!

Was this a roll-over or a tip-over (or something else completely)?

[PH4]

As JimCT stated, watch out for the unsecured in the auto. I was in a L collision 5 months ago at 50mph in a Volvo SW and walked away because the Volvo took everything for me. Looked like a smashed tin can but I walked away. However, I had borrowed a cast iron dutch oven which was placed in the rear cargo space. At impact the dutch oven broke down the rear seat, went over the passenger seat and out through the front windshield. If someone had been in the passenger seat it would have been a very bad day.I try and secure everything now and puchased a dog barrier from Bearmach for the 109 SW.

[daveb]

thanks for the clarification. I heard the same thing somewhere else as well. I think the term applies nonetheless. Not my verbage anyway, that was how it was described by the chap that got hit. I suppose he can call it whatever he wants! :)

d



In the UK Yank Tank is a reference to the oversize cars built in the US. Especially those ones with no handling, pleather interiors, and those wire spoke hub caps. It stems from the 70's and 80's. If you think of anything ever built by Cadillac you've got the idea.

SUV's are another thing entirely. We usually just refer to anything with a Hummer badge as G^y. In the UK SUV's are referred to as Chelsea Tractors.

Cheers
Gregor

[LaneRover]

If I remember correctly, the first thing my Dad said when he got into the back of my 109 SW was, "I have never seen a vehicle interior that was so perilous to the human body"

He was of course referring to the fact that the only cushions were on the seats.

[JimCT]

rolled over onto it's side....slide backwards into a dirt embankment and did a few more spins. Nothing was straight afterwords, frame bent, doors had to be tied shut, drove somewhat sideways down the road. Ended up putting on a half cab top and tailgate and using it for a few more years like that.

[Bostonian1976]

As JimCT stated, watch out for the unsecured in the auto. I was in a L collision 5 months ago at 50mph in a Volvo SW and walked away because the Volvo took everything for me. Looked like a smashed tin can but I walked away. However, I had borrowed a cast iron dutch oven which was placed in the rear cargo space. At impact the dutch oven broke down the rear seat, went over the passenger seat and out through the front windshield. If someone had been in the passenger seat it would have been a very bad day.I try and secure everything now and puchased a dog barrier from Bearmach for the 109 SW.

I try and bungee everything down, but I'm not sure how much good a bungee cord is really going to do in an accident.

There is wayyyyyyyyy too much loose stuff in the back of my 88 right now - I will have to secure it all. (jack, tire iron, etc - things that wouldn't be pretty flying toward my head)

[sven]

Hmm after reading all this, I think I'll remove my canvas roof and go back to a hardtop. :eek:

[daveb]

http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Rollcage.htm

http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Main_Wrecks.htm


Hmm after reading all this, I think I'll remove my canvas roof and go back to a hardtop. :eek:

[greenmeanie]

As a side note on the roof thing.

WHen I went to collect my truck from the towing yard after my roll (only onto it's side at 40 mph thankfully) I got talking with the wrecker driver. He was actually quite impressed with how well my IIA held up. He showed me some of the other exibits in his yard and pointed out how on a lot of modern vehicles the A-pillar just folds back allowing the vehicle to go over on its roof. Once it is there the front end of the roof caves in on the driver which usually ruins their day.

Just saying hat once you start pushing the attitude envelope these old rovers are not too bad compared to a lot of modern stuff. At least if it happens I'm more likely to be travelling slower in the Rover.

Cheers
Gregor

[Tim Smith]

http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Rollcage.htm

http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Main_Wrecks.htm
Right, who has a pipe bender? :D

[JimCT]

Believe me they will not work in a real crash. The good think was about 5 people were able to stand the thing back on its wheels and i drove it home. State police said he had never seen a vehicle so beat up with no one hurt....but I do think that was dumb luck.

[Momo]

Gregor:

The guy in Phoenix was named Mike. We were acquaintances. Mike drove a RHD 109 Regular which was ex-military, I think from Bermuda or BVI.
It was a 2.25 Diesel and had no seat belts. Mike drove it often without any top. He was travelling down a two-lane highway somewhere southwest of Phx on his way back to Tucson. It was a clear dark night with good road conditions.

Mike was struck from behind by a car travelling over 70 mph. The other driver did not see him because it occurred over a crest in the road. Mike was ejected and the truck rolled over him. Based on how he drove, I'd guess he was going no more than 40 mph, so the impact speed was likely 34-40 mph.

The 109 was rebuildable, and was eventually acquired by another of Mike's Rover friends, who later sold it on before completing the rebuild.

As far as how safe we are in our Series Rovers, there are too many factors to accurately answer this without conducting modern crash testing, particularly the offset frontal test, which has found to be more of a real world scenario than the full head-on, and the side impact test. If you could find results of the crash tests done on Defenders, you'd be pretty close to knowing how your Series Rover would perform. Except that neither NHSTA nor the Insurance Institute ever tested them!

Being a Firefighter/Paramedic myself, I can tell anecdotal stories all day long. I have stories about unrecognizably destroyed cars whose occupants walked away without a scratch, cars with minor damage whose occupants where dead, and everything in between. The best you can do is wear seatbelts, drive defensively, do a mirror scan every 5 seconds or so, and look 3-5 seconds ahead to avoid trouble. Stay out of the mix, basically.

Two war stories:

1. In April I rolled my 109 regular onto the driver's side at the bottom of a very steep trail. It was topless & has no rollover protection. The whole thing was just a fluke, mainly inattention on my part. Were a few minor factors altered I would probably be dead. But the roll was gentle, it stopped at 90 degrees, I was belted, and I could escape. Just got lucky.

2. Last week I went to a wreck on the freeway. A tractor trailer rear ended a 1928 Ford Model A pickup that was doing 45 in an area where the typical speed is 75-80. Not wise.

Anyway, the big rig pushed the bed into the cab, which pushed the cab forward, which shortened the throttle rod linkage, so the Model A was revving away, but the driver was able to shut it off and slow safely to a stop. He was sore but basically unhurt. Not bad for being 77 years old(driver not vehicle) having no seatbelts and getting hit by 70-80,000 pounds. It was not the impact speed but the rig's mass that caused the damage. Some reasons it was not as bad as it could have been:

The impact speed was low;

It did not result in a sudden deceleration;

The vehicle did not suddenly change course, and

It was controllable after the event.

When the opposite happens, people really get hurt.

[siiirhd88]

I rolled my RHD SIII 88 several times at 40 mph after being hit. I was surprised (and pleased) at how well the top held up.... I only had a few minor cuts and bruises, but did note that the rear upright of the dismembered right door top smacked me on the head twice, causing only minor cuts. The chassis was a nearly new galvy unit, so plenty of strength there. The 88 will be rebuilt. I was belted in by the original non retractable belts and shoulder harness, anchored to the stock floor locations and to the top of the rear bulkhead capping.

Bob
'96 Disco SE7
'80 SIII 109
'75 SIII 88 V8
'68 SIIA 109 V8
'6? SIIA 109
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/SIIIRHD88/88Wrk1a.jpg

[jp-]

I rolled my RHD SIII 88 several times at 40 mph after being hit. I was surprised (and pleased) at how well the top held up.... I only had a few minor cuts and bruises, but did note that the rear upright of the dismembered right door top smacked me on the head twice, causing only minor cuts. The chassis was a nearly new galvy unit, so plenty of strength there. The 88 will be rebuilt. I was belted in by the original non retractable belts and shoulder harness, anchored to the stock floor locations and to the top of the rear bulkhead capping.

Bob


Were you able to drive it away after the wreck?

[Tim Smith]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/SIIIRHD88/88Wrk1a.jpg
Bob, I'm glad you were able to walk away from that one!

A slight step OT but where did you get those sliding side windows?

Cheers,
Tim

[LaneRover]

Bob, I'm glad you were able to walk away from that one!

A slight step OT but where did you get those sliding side windows?

Cheers,
Tim

Yes, they seem to hold up well - unless you have special stickers that float in place once the glass is gone!

[siiirhd88]

The 88 after the rollover would drive, but the radiator was holed and the right side of the rear axle shifted back due to the spring center bolt shearing. It ended up on its side, and the firemen and I just lifted it back onto its wheels to keep the fuel from leaking. I was only a mile from home, but the state trooper wouldn't have let me drive away...... I did find that the British spec widscreen glass is tempered, not laminated, and shattered. Not a good thing for a stone impact or such.... The sliding side windows were in the truck when I bought it, and were English units. No maker's name on them, sorry. Both windows were twisted a bit and are unusable due to their aluminum frames.

Bob

[SafeAirOne]

...where did you get those sliding side windows?

See: http://www.paddockspares.com/pp/SERIES/Accessories/90_Dual_Opening_Sliding_Side_Windows_(pair).html

Other examples available--Look under "Series" then "Accessories"

[ArlowCT]

A few years back I T-boned a Ford Ranger with my ser III 88" at about 25mph. The ford was done and went to the crusher. I broke the headlight lens (the headlight still worked) and bent the bumper back about an Inch. I was fine.

The tire on the hood is another thing in it's self. I have a good friend who grew up in Africa. He knew someone who hit the back of a parked truck in their 109" at speed one night. The tire ripped off the hood and bounced back through the truck taking one of the passengers heads with it.... I keep my tire mounted to the middle bulkhead now.

Keep it safe out there. High back seats and three point belts.

[EASTTNROVER]

The tire on the hood is another thing in it's self. I have a good friend who grew up in Africa. He knew someone who hit the back of a parked truck in their 109" at speed one night. The tire ripped off the hood and bounced back through the truck taking one of the passengers heads with it.... I keep my tire mounted to the middle bulkhead now. [quote]


That seems so unlikely to happen, but you never know...thinking of getting a swing-away tire mount now. My luck i would get rear ended and my head taken off from the back. :D

[Rosie]

After reading all this crash information, maybe I had better not venture out to purchase one of these things!
How does all this compare with newer cars I wonder?
Rosie

[greenmeanie]

After reading all this crash information, maybe I had better not venture out to purchase one of these things!
How does all this compare with newer cars I wonder?
Rosie

The simple answer is that these are not modern cars and therfore do not compare. As the last series truck was built 25 years or so ago they do not feature any of the safety systems such as disc brakes, ABS, airbags, high back seats, crumple zones, collapsible steering columns, side impact protection, roll cages, the all saving idiot stability control computer or even, in mosts cases, funtioning inertia reel seat belts.

In buying one you must respect it for what it is and drive it accordingly. That, strangely, is part of the attraction in that it takes you back to a time of driving responsibly, concentrating on the road and developing some driving skills.

On the plus side they tend to be underpowered compared to modern vehicles which helps keep speeds down. You can improve safety considerably by adding better seating, modern seat belts, rock sliders help with side impact and you can even add more modern brakes. The pictures should show that structurally the hard tops hold up well enough for the speeds you should expect to drive at. They are certainly no more dangerous than most vehicles of their era.

If this kind of thing intimidates you I can only suggest one of these modern FJ cruiser things might be more in line with your needs. You can pretend that it has the classic looks but keep the modern underpinnings.

I'm not trying to be brutal but before parting with your hard earned cash I would suggest having a long hard look at what you want out of this truck and then asking yourself if it really fits your needs.

Cheers
Gregor

[Tim Smith]

Gregor, that was a good response but...

In buying one you must respect it for what it is and drive it accordingly. That, strangely, is part of the attraction in that it takes you back to a time of driving responsibly, concentrating on the road and developing some driving skills.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!
I wish people would actually take some responsibility for themselves. Not that I've been run into lately or anything but oh the good old days.





Uh oh, did I just say that?!?:D

[Rosie]

well, there is always the other guy you know.
so many center of the road drivers these days...drifting into the other lane... lots of folks tired and drugged up and combine that with stress and anger...well...even the best of drivers may have an accident.
Rosie