veggie oil conversion

[Rosie]

Has anyone here converted their diesel series to use veggie oil?
What are the fuel conversion possibilities with either a diesel or petrol in the series LR?
Also, how do you all justify using a low miles per gallon vehicle, if you use the series on a daily basis?

[graniterover]

Also, how do you all justify using a low miles per gallon vehicle, if you use the series on a daily basis?

Justify what, to whom?

[greenmeanie]

Simply really,
Given an designed lifeaspan of about 10 years my IIA has outlasted 3.5 normal vehicles with the resulting reduction in polution from manufacturing those vehicles.

Fuel consumption is only one aspect of the environmental impact of a vehicle. On the cradle to grave scale of environmental impact the Prius, for instance, only comes in about 46th of current production cars IIRC. Those battery packs are nasty to manucature and dispose of.

Gregor

[JayGoss]

Also, how do you all justify using a low miles per gallon vehicle, if you use the series on a daily basis?

Ok I'll bite. Inexpensive (relatively), reliable but easy to fix/diagnose problems when they do occur, cool as hell and above all fun to drive! Some people may not have the $ to spring for a new hybrid- but they can afford the extra $10/week in gas and some people may not be as concerned for the environment as others...who knows? It's a complex issue you bring up- and I'm sure people are going to have their opinions. I'm glad you mention the new vehicle manufacturing pollution vs. old vehicle recycling argument as it's one that doesn't get as much press as mpg's. I don't have a lot to offer with regard to experience with veg oil conversions- but keep searching as it has been done; I've heard of more than one Series running on veg. In the meantime if you can afford it fill your xfer case and diffs with synthetic oil, fit fwh's and an OD- that should give you a few more mpg's if it's an issue of concern and the veggie oil conversion doesn't pan out.

[Rosie]

Justify what, to whom?
well... justify to self.....spending more dollars from your own pocket, enriching the oil companies, supporting terrorism by buying Arab gasoline.....

[Rosie]

In the meantime if you can afford it fill your xfer case and diffs with synthetic oil, fit fwh's and an OD- that should give you a few more mpg's if it's an issue of concern.
I'll ask you more about this when I get my series!
Until then, I have been talking with a guy who is selling a 1960, and says he did something with the differentials instead of using an overdrive....don't remember what he said, but wondering if that makes sense...is there something you can do with the drive shaft to give the vehicle more power, rather than using overdrive, and if so, is it preferable?
Thanks!

[JayGoss]

Well there are a few things you can do to get better road speed and lower rpm's...but with a diesel LR (I'm assuming yours is diesel as you're talking about a veg oil conversion) I'm afraid that your Rover wouldn't be able to get out of its' own way! Here's what you may have heard of:

-fitting Range Rover diffs (converts from 4.7:1 to 3.54:1 ratio- I think)
-fitting High ratio xfer case (RN sells it- I think it's made by Ashcroft)
-OD (but you knew about this one)
-FWH's (make front wheels "freewheel", decreasing friction in driveline, saving gas and increasing power)

The diff swapout and xfer case change would make a diesel LR such a slug that I would imagine you'd have to flog the gas pedal to get her moving...so much so that you may even waste fuel and your mpg's might go down! The OD is a nice option because you'll have more options for the appropriate gear- once you're on the highway or a nice stretch of backroads you can snick in the OD and lower your rpms.

[greenmeanie]

Says he did something with the differentials instead of using an overdrive....don't remember what he said, but wondering if that makes sense...is there something you can do with the drive shaft to give the vehicle more power, rather than using overdrive, and if so, is it preferable?
Thanks!

You can swap differnetial ratios. The common one would be to replace the 4.70 series diff with a 3.54 from a RR or Dicso. There are a lot of drawbacks to this:
1. The diff ratio affects high and low ration making your off road gearing less effective.
2. A series engine and especially a diesel just doesn't have enough poke to push around 3.54s on anything other than very flat land. 4.70 diffs and overdrive are considered to give the best set up.

Cheers
Gregor

[greenmeanie]

well... justify to self.....spending more dollars from your own pocket, enriching the oil companies, supporting terrorism by buying Arab gasoline.....

Oh brother. If that's what concerns you buy a bicycle instead. It's zero emissions and your dollars won't be going to the evil bogeyman.

Several things you can do to help:
- Plan your trips to achieve as much as possible in the minimum distance. i.e. do the shopping on the way to work etc.
- Don't drive anywhere unless you have to. No frivolous trips to enjoy driving for the hell of it.
- Use public transport or ride your bike as much as possible.
- Overall reduce your consumption of goods be it groceries, home projects or heating your home. All that stuff has to travel and that consumes oil.

I don't like paying $4 a gallon for fuel either but I have very little sympathy for that arguement.

Cheers
Gregor

[Rosie]

the differential thing vs. the overdrive was for a petrol engine.

[scott]

well... justify to self.....spending more dollars from your own pocket, enriching the oil companies, supporting terrorism by buying Arab gasoline.....

my commutes is only 15 miles round trip. i've no monthly car payment. my insurance isn't very high, no expensive mechanic's bills, and if where i have to go is less than a couple of miles i walk. the weekend drives are fun and i don't mind paying for fun. and working on my series is theraputic so no costly therapist.

as for supporting terrorist and oil rich middle eastern kindoms, well i mess with them in other ways.

[greenmeanie]

the differential thing vs. the overdrive was for a petrol engine.

It still won't push it. A stock series petrol has between 70 and 80hp IIRC and the peak torque is down around 1900rpm. There is stuff you can do to help the engine but it is never going to be a powerhouse.

Ask about the engine and see if it is still original. If not you'll have opened a whole new can of worms to consider.

Cheers
Gregor

[Rineheitzgabot]

Enriching oil companies?

You better stop buying Coke and Pepsi, because they made much, much more money last year than the Eeevill oil companies.

I apologize. But I cannot tolerate the bashing of an industry, anymore, that: 1) If you have a 401k, odds are, you probably have been benefitting from the gains of this industry for years (because you have invested and don't know it), and 2) Many, many other industries make much higher margins, and pay much less in taxes than the oil industry. These guys get the hell beat out of them, and the media STILL hates them.

Rosie, I am not picking on you (and believe it or not, I don't work for an oil company), and I apologize for using this forum as a veritable soap box (if you researched, you would note than any other forum I have ever visited, has never seen me be this way), and for seeming offensive (the truth be it--DEFENSIVE). Maybe you don't have a 401k, or any investments; if this is the case, then more power to ya'. I just get so sick of the class-envy, global warming thing, used to better a cause (which usually ends up being someone's pocketbook, i.e., Mister Carbon-Footprint, himself, Al Gore, and his... Nevermind.

The terrorism thing? I agree. However, if you just hang tight, with all the hybrids out there, the demand for fossil fuels will eventually drop, thus, causing the price of fossil fuels to follow suit. Then, you can deliver that delicious milk you produce, and keep your costs, down, you wonderful capitalist, you!!:)

[Rosie]

Enriching oil companies?

Coke and Pepsi

never!!
just wish we could get to the air cars as soon as possible. Until then, an old land rover will do! I'd love to get an car that runs on air!!

[Eric W S]

well... justify to self.....spending more dollars from your own pocket, enriching the oil companies, supporting terrorism by buying Arab gasoline.....

How about we keep it to series rovers?

We import only approx. 10-12% of our oil from the Middle East (based on current imports from known global reserves as reported Q2 2008). We import far more Canadian oil (approx. 25%).

Oil isn't refined before transportation. Oil in imported as crude and then refined to gasoline at the destination. Ergo there is no such thing as "Arab" gas that is used to support terror.

I am all for enriching companies. I believe in the free market and the laws of economics and have invested accordingly.

If you want to talk about big oil, your decreasing discretionary income, and terrorism, find a more appropriate bbs to post on.

[xsbowes]

Most rovers give back to the environment. And global warming is a vicious cycle, as the ice cap melts the oceans cool which cause the air to cool which causes longer and harsher winters/ice age, which means you will have more use for an easy to repair and maintain 4x4, which will lead to global warming etc. etc. Talked to my friends in Sicily, they are paying over $9.25/gal for regular with diesel not much less, to the point where they've been having protests. But they don't own 1 passenger suburbans and excursions either.

[JayGoss]

How about we keep it to series rovers?

Amen brutha.

[thixon]

Please go to another board if being a troll is what you're into. Otherwise, I'd be glad to discuss rovers with you.

Thanks,

[Momo]

Rosie, if you are serious about a diesel Rover running veggie oil (and I'm beginning to wonder if you are), then the way to go would be to convert to a Mercedes 240D and run 50/50 diesel/veggie.

However, you won't be saving any money because the conversion will cost far more than you will recoup in fuel savings unless you plan on driving it for many years.

Most Rover owners do a diesel conversion for the long term reliability of those powerplants and for the better offroad capabilities (engine braking, low end torque, idling all day, fording, etc.)

Actually this tinkering was going on long before it became trendy to wear "green" on your sleeve. There's some guy out there who converted his 88 to electric power in the late 80s or early 90s.

[Rineheitzgabot]

I don't know anything about this, but I have heard that a person can buy a kit (a very expensive kit) that turns used fryer oil (you know, from restaurants) into a diesel substitute.

The rules of economics follow, though, and then the price of used fryer oil will probably be more than diesel eventually.:rolleyes:

Someone else will probably know more about this.

[Rosie]

No intention to divert the conversation away from series rovers...
As for alternative fuels, I am interested to know what, if any, fuel conversions have been made with series trucks.
As I am at the crossroads of purchasing a vehicle that I want to last for a good long while, knowing what can be done with the series is of great interest to me, especially as the nation focuses on gasoline prices and all the other politics around it.
And yes, I am serious about veggie oil conversion, and hope to find out if it is possible to do on a diesel series.
I am trying to decide whether to purchase a diesel or a petrol series at this point.
As for global warming, I agree with you, and have no interest in discussing any of these politically charged topics here or anywhere else.

[adkrover]

Trust me on this one. I am from Rosie's area and everyone in that area has gone far beyond being "trendy". They were green long before anyone had heard of Al Gore. It's a serious thing in Central New York.

One of the nice things about Rovers is their vesatility. You could do almost anything to it so yes I'm sure it can be done. I would suggest getting either an original diesel or a Mercedes conversion. As far as running on oil, I think it's much easier to just run on bio diesel. Northern Tool sells a home bio diesel generator for around $3500 so you can collect the fryer oil from the Triangle Restaurant and make all the fuel you want. Since you are in the place for groovy stuff, you can also buy bio diesel from the neighborhood hippy. I don't know who but someone in Ithaca is collecting all of the used fryer oil from the local restaurants and making the stuff. Next time you are in town, stop by Greenstar Market or Moosewood and ask around. Maybe even try calling Cayuga Compost.

I had a friend who had a VW Rabbit that he was running on homemade bio diesel so I know it can be done.

As far as being politically correct, remember that the Rover will most likely drip enough oil from various places that at least your driveway will no longer qualify for certified organic status.

[scott]

badvibes has talked about converting his petrol to propane. it's suppose to be a simple conversion.

[Rosie]

Ah, the Triangle Restaurant is closed, but there are plenty of greasy places to get oil! Thanks for the good local leads!!
Conversion to propane. That is very interesting. What would be the benefit of running on propane? I would think it could be dangerous..isn't the stuff more flamable even than gasoline?

[adkrover]

There are lots of vehicles that have been running on propane for a long time. I have a backup generator that is essentially a Ford V6 that runs on propane. Our reason for propane is that the lows in the winter here are -30F and diesel would turn to jelly so the propane is better. Propane also burns at a lower temp than petrol so there is less engine wear. A lot of municipal vehicles run on propane because there is less pollution (I believe). You won't earn any strikes against the oil companies because propane is actually called liquified PETROLEUM gas or LPG.

There are people in your area with private natural gas wells so maybe you could purchase compressed natural gas to run the truck on. Gas conversions are pretty simple. You need to install a pressure tank to store the pressurized gas and a special injection plate between the carb and intake manifold. It's been done for years and is definitely proven. Look at the back of a small NYSEG truck the next time they come to read your meter. Most likely it will have a sticker on the back that says it runs on natural gas.

[scott]

the following came to me from my bud badvibes. all the time i heard him talk of propane i thought he was talking about converting his petrol to propane. but this tells of injecting it into a diesel system


Propane Injection is where Propane vapor is introduced into the intake of the diesel engine to help burn the wasted fuel. it acts like a catalyst with the diesel to help burn the fuel completely.
What are the advantages of Propane Injection?
Propane Injection (PI) helps to burn all the fuel thus you have a cleaner burning engine. a normal diesel engine only burns 75% of the fuel so there is a waste of fuel as well this is were most of the black smoke comes from, unburnt fuel. will this system get rid of all the black smoke? No. but it helps to reduce most of it. under full throttle you might still see a small amount of smoke. there are other factors that also come into play causing black smoke from a diesel. PI also drops the Exhaust Gas Temperatures by 50 F - 100 F. this also helps the longevity of the engine. PI also boosts the horse power of the engine by at least 25% but not at the risk of detrimental engine wear. the horse power increase is substantial making hill climbs a breeze and towing a reality and a pleasure. even around the city and on the highway you will notice a quieter more powerful engine. Because the engine runs cleaner you will also find a side benefit of a bit cleaner oil at oil changes. PI will also increase the fuel mileage of the engine by 1-3 mpg (or even more) depending on driving style.
Will Propane Injection hurt my engine?
No, as long as you leave the settings as they are at time of install. the PI injects 2 cfm of propane into the engine to help burn the unburned and wasted fuel. We are not trying to run the truck on Propane just introducing a very small quantity to help combustion.
Benefits of Propane Injection:

Easy installation and maintenance.
Cleaner burning fuel.
Better fuel economy.
Increased torque and horsepower for towing

[Tim Smith]

I've been thinking about alternative energy power in rovers for ages. More for the fun of it than anything else. I'm sure I'd never make my money back if I were just doing the conversion for the cash savings. Or as dictated in Murphy's law, once I did do the conversion, fuel would drop down to 1950's prices again.

I've found out that yes you can run your rover on WVO/SVO but the CAV(?) type fuel pump is a bit weak and is prone to failure in this situation. So you have to be sure the vegetable oil is up to temperature before switching over from diesel. So this means it is a two tank system. These guys are doing it and have all kinds of info on their site:
http://journeytoforever.org/landrover.html

You can also make your own biofuel out of WVO/SVO but it will probably cost you at least $1 per gallon to make as it takes some pretty dangerous chemicals for the reaction. People have been doing it for years and the upside is that you can run this fuel in any diesel car or furnace for short periods without worry. Long term running on biofuel and you will need to replace your rubber fuel lines with non rubber lines so they don't get eaten away from the natural cleaning of vegi oil. Other than the fuel lines, thats it!

You can also do the Mercedes rover switch and if this wasn't your first rover (and you had access to a great deal of mechanical help), I'd probably be recommending it to you. The 617 type Mercedes motors are gems. I had one that just simply couldn't be stopped. It was still in the Mercedes though. :p

The other thought is a gas truck. The 2.25 petrol is a wonderful little motor if kept in good tune. The best mileage I can average is about 18 mpg. Don't know what the diesels get. I like this motor simply because I know it so well. No other reason. It's still weak but not as weak as a diesel is. Mine right now can hold me at around 60-65 unless there is a head wind or an incline. Although, I'm getting admittedly poor performance from it right now as I'm getting very low pressure on the #1 cylinder. :mad:

The other end of the spectrum is electric. Yes it's been done before:
http://www.evalbum.com/045.html

There was an article about this truck in the January 2000 issue (didn't I say I've been thinking about this for a while ;) ) of Land Rover Monthly where the builder put his 88 against another 88 of the same vintage, with same diff/axle setup and same tires and tested them out in Moab. As I recall from the article, other than a wiring mishap that was easily fixed, the electric rover bested the 2.25 gas in pretty much all categories.
More info here. (http://www.evparts.com/article_zoom.php?ARTICLESTAG=roverFaceOff)

Apparently power wasn't an issue with this conversion either because (and I think this was in the LRO article) they could do 80+. It isn't exactly clear whether that speed could be sustained for long though.

I tried to reach out to Wilde Evolutions about their rover conversion but have yet to hear back from them. If anyone knows them or has any information about the conversion kit, I'd love to find out more.

All of these options may seem a bit tame to some. Well there is more. How about a jet turbine generator (http://www.capstoneturbine.com/prodsol/solutions/other.asp) for your Rover? Oh heck, what about just going for the gas turbine straight? Rover did (http://www.4wdonline.com/Rover/GasTurbines.html).

A series rover is a versatile platform. You can do all kinds with it. Whether any of this is of interest to you is another story.

In the end I'd say get the 2.25 gas and ride your bicycle as much as you can. We all need the exercise, right? :D

Cheers!

[Rosie]

good good posts!!!
Much appreciate all the info and the links!!!!
Now got to go and read it all!!
Thanks!

[badvibes]

the following came to me from my bud badvibes. all the time i heard him talk of propane i thought he was talking about converting his petrol to propane. but this tells of injecting it into a diesel system

Scott is pretty much right. The info I sent him is about propane in conjunction with diesel fuel. What I have toyed with is doing a propane set-up on my 2.25 petrol motor. It looks pretty straight forward and affordable. It can be done as a dual fuel system on petrol motors so you can switch between gas or propane. The stuff I have checked about is thru Gotpropane out of Tempe. There are bugs/problems to be worked out. I haven't done the conversion so I don't have the details or answers. I'm just looking at alternatives to gasoline with the current gas situation and considering some of the other issues people have touched on in this thread. Such as running a 40 + year old vehicle that isn't the best on gas mileage.

[dunerunner]

I would be more interested in a natural gas conversion as propane is bloody expensive and derived from the production of gasoline, is it not? I maintained a natural gas generator for several years and after running since the mid 60's you could still read the numeration etched on the top of the pistons. I believe with propane and natural gas, there is a loss in horsepower, something our old workhorses can't spare much of. Wonderful idea!!

[JayGoss]

109 converted to run on waste veg oil on Craigslist; it is possible!

http://denver.craigslist.org/car/748597494.html

[adkrover]

Rosie,

Buy that truck in Denver, pay the freight and you are off to the markets!

[scott]

Rosie,

Buy that truck in Denver, pay the freight and you are off to the markets!

there's another website that has a bulletin board that has a section titled "hauling" here folks post looking to move stuff or have stuff moved. i posted there and got a sankey trailer moved from california to new mex for only $200, a commercial vehicle hauler wanted $1000. the site is pirate4x4.com

[Rosie]

There you have it, a Series already coverted to veggie!!!
I will find out more about it. I also like the natural gas concept, as propane is getting more expensive.
Where I live, they are drilling on farms for natural gas, and finding it too!Don't suppose I could siphon any of that out of there in the middle of the night, do you?
Just kidding!