help! engine siezed

[scott]

i was motoring for the 1st time in a long time. doing about 55 mph down the frwy when the line from a newly installed water temp gauge shorted against the starter selenoid. all of a sudden it feels like i'm losing power so i pull over and shut down. a small flame is jetting off the water temp line right where it made contact with the starter selenoid. i blew it out, wired the line up so it wouldn't make contact again. tried to start and nothing. pulled out the hand crank and couldn't budge the motor. towed it home, removed the starter. it spins freely and the gear looks good. try the hand crank again and no go. put it in 3rd and rocked it, no go, the fan doesn't move at all. i'm off to the auto parts store to get a new oil catch pan so that i can drain it and pull the oil pan. oh yea, recent oil change and oil preasure was 40 psi at idle, 60 at a rev. what killed my motor?

[LH Drive]

I'm still new to Series Rovers but have had this happen to me on another make. I would check the distributor and see if the points are fried up. Maybe the locked up motor has something to do with the timing chain or thrown rod.

[scott]

no timing chain, just gears. what i'm thinking is the starter shorting and engine siez'n was just a co-winky-dink. i'm thinking oil pump failure and now dry cylinders with stuck pistons. pulled the oil pan and everything there looks good. going to try some marvel mystery oil in the spark plug holes and let it sit for a while.

[yorker]

you replaced your chain with gears?

I had something similar happen with my '65, the pad the timing chain rides on came off and jammed the works, later it broke the end off of the cam when I tried to start it.

[Moose]

Sorry to hear about your troubles Scott. I don't think the wire shorting and the engine seizing are related. You say this is after a recent oil change? How many miles ago? You switch brands of oil filter? Spin-on oil filter adapter by any chance?

It's not unknown for the adapters to be put on backwards and still work with some oil filters, but not so well with others. Don't ask me how I this.

Oil pump failure could be a cause of you problem. I know it's not unheard out, but how often do oil pumps fail, given they should be the best lubricated part of the engine?

Good luck and I hope it's not too serious.

Brett

[scott]

i'm a potato head, there is a timing chain. oil pump works. i do have the spin on oil adapter. had it for years. done a few oil changes since installing it. had about 15 miles since the oil change. wasn't paying attention to the oil preasure when things stopped work but befor i left badvibes driveway the newly installed gauge was reading 40 at an idle. with a rev it went up to 60. i notice this cause i just installed the new gauge and was checking it. i remember telling badvibes that that's the highest i've ever seen it. usually it was about 20 at an idle and 45 while driving. i'm thinking it's the main bearings on the crank. i think i'll start shopping for a 200 tdi. if i gotta pull the engine to change bearings i might as well do the dzl conversion i've been wanting.

[Moose]

Yeah, I got about 12 miles on mine before it seized after an oil change. Turns out the new and improved filter wouldn't let the oil circulate through the filter the wrong way round because of wrongly installed spin on adapter. Funny thing is it had been on the wrong way for over 10 years and count less oil changes and it always showed good oil presure.

I'm thinking diesel conversion to. Seems to be the best way to go.

Brett

[scott]

the filiter i've got on is a fram HM16.

moose, when your's seized what went? the main bearings?

[daveb]

have you tried to turn the engine over with the spark plugs out?

have you pulled the valve cover?

[badvibes]

the filiter i've got on is a fram nm16.

moose, when your's seized what went? the main bearings?

Scott-

The old filter was a Cooper Z1159. The Fram I put on was a NM16. EDIT: CHECK THAT # AGAIN COULD IT HAVE BEEN AN HM16? I'm running a Fram TG16.

Jeff

[Moose]

the filiter i've got on is a fram HM16.

moose, when your's seized what went? the main bearings?
I use a Fram PH8A equivalent filter. When my engine seized, it was the main bearings. Don't know how it went so far starved of oil. I had the crank ground, added new main and con rod bearings and all was well... after switching the oil filter adapter around the right way. If yours is installed with the oil pressure port pointing up and towards the front of the engine, then it is installed correctly. In that case, you'll need to figure out another reason for your engine to have seized.

Brett

[scott]

... If yours is installed with the oil pressure port pointing up and towards the front of the engine, then it is installed correctly. In that case, you'll need to figure out another reason for your engine to have seized.

Brett

mine faces to the rear but given the way oil filters are made, one big hole in the middle surrounded by a ring of smaller holes, i don't understand how having the adapter 180 degrees off would make a difference for some filters and not others

[daveb]

on those cheap frams the bypass valve must not work very good. turning the adapter upside-down reverses the flow through the filter. NOT a good thing.

did you pull the spark plugs yet?


mine faces to the rear but given the way oil filters are made, one big hole in the middle surrounded by a ring of smaller holes, i don't understand how having the adapter 180 degrees off would make a difference for some filters and not others

[scott]

pulled the spark plugs, still no go. pour 1/2 oz of marvel mirical oil in each spark plug hole in hopes that it would help the cylinders break free but i'm thinking it's the main and rod bearings that are stuck

[greenmeanie]

I wouldn't write it off just yet. I'd start disecting her one level at a time until I found the problem. As Daveb says pull the valve covers and inspect the valve train. I'd then pull the ancilleries, the timing cover and then finally the head which isn't a huge job on this engine.

If your in luck it will be something simple and cheap and if you're not in luck at least you'll know what killed her. I would be more worried if something machanical had gone with a loud bang.

On my brother's 110 V8 we though the engine had siezed. We decided to do a strip before replacing it and found that it had been extremely heavily coked. A piece had broken off the buildup and was stopping that piston from passing through tdc. Only cost was a set of new gaskets in the end.

Just being the optimist here. Diesel swaps are not cheap.

Cheers
Gregor

[badvibes]

on those cheap frams the bypass valve must not work very good. turning the adapter upside-down reverses the flow through the filter. NOT a good thing.

did you pull the spark plugs yet?

daveb-

I just checked my spin on adapter and see that mine also points to the back of the motor with a bit of a downward slant. If I'm getting this it should sit 180* from that, facing to the front of the motor and slightly upward? I've been running it this way for several years like somebody earlier posted, Moose I think. So I've just been lucky. You'd recommend switching it around to sit the other way?

Jeff

[daveb]

the sending units are supposed to point forward I believe.

alas, no 2.25's here anymore. I would check with the vendor you bought it from. mine used fram ph8a or ford/motorcraft fl1a filters.

good luck.

are you sure it's in neutral?

I know.

But you have to ask these things.



daveb-

I just checked my spin on adapter and see that mine also points to the back of the motor with a bit of a downward slant. If I'm getting this it should sit 180* from that, facing to the front of the motor and slightly upward? I've been running it this way for several years like somebody earlier posted, Moose I think. So I've just been lucky. You'd recommend switching it around to sit the other way?

Jeff

[SafeAirOne]

the newly installed gauge was reading 40 at an idle. with a rev it went up to 60. i notice this cause i just installed the new gauge and was checking it. i remember telling badvibes that that's the highest i've ever seen it. usually it was about 20 at an idle and 45 while driving.

I don't know if we're still in the "what went wrong" stage here, but high oil pressure is a symptom of an obstruction in the lubrication system, depending on where in the system the pressure sensor is located.

I just went to the fram oil filter website. It turns out that size doesn't matter (filter wise). Its the type. I'll bet you installed either a:

1) Tough Guard
2) Extended Guard or (Less likely) a
3) Synthetic Oil Filter.

Reason I picked these is that they feature an "ANTI-DRAINBACK VALVE, Which "protects your engine by retaining oil when engine is off so your engine benefits from a full filter at start-up."

Unfortunately, if your spin on adapter is plumbed backwards, it will block flow through the filter.

See: http://www.fram.com/products/oilFilters.php

[badvibes]

Mark-

Guess I've been lucky and am flirting with disaster. I've got about 1000 miles since my last oil change and I'm running a TG16 filter. That's the "Tough Guard" Fram filter. I went out and checked my spin-on adapter and its pointed the wrong orientation. I'll change it tomorrow. Thanks to all of you who have posted the right info, you may have just saved my motor. It only has @ 6 or 7K miles on it.

Jeff

[scott]

...
are you sure it's in neutral?

I know.

But you have to ask these things.

yea it's in neutral. tested that by hooking it to the back of the wife's lr and dragging it 8 miles home

[SafeAirOne]

Mark-

Guess I've been lucky and am flirting with disaster. I've got about 1000 miles since my last oil change and I'm running a TG16 filter. That's the "Tough Guard" Fram filter. I went out and checked my spin-on adapter and its pointed the wrong orientation. I'll change it tomorrow. Thanks to all of you who have posted the right info, you may have just saved my motor. It only has @ 6 or 7K miles on it.

Jeff

Yeah--I was just looking at the Fram website again ( http://www.fram.com/products/oilFilters.php )

If you hit the "technology" button on the Tough Guard oil filter, it shows an exploded view--It looks as though the oil enters the filter through the series of little holes and comes out the big threaded hole in the middle. The Tough Gurad features a bypass valve which I don't think would help if the adapter is plumbed backwards either.

Out of curiosity, did you use any additives or synthetic oil? By all accounts, if you used this filter and had your adapter plumbed wrong for the last 6500 miles, your engine should be in the same state as Scott's...

[rivertonrovers]

I was just flipping through here and was wondering.... Is there a possibility that when your starter ran on that you had some bits fall down and got wedged between the ring gear and the housing?

Bill@ Riverton Rovers

[SafeAirOne]

I just went to the fram oil filter website. It turns out that size doesn't matter (filter wise). Its the type. I'll bet you installed either a:

1) Tough Guard
2) Extended Guard or (Less likely) a
3) Synthetic Oil Filter.

Also, add the High-Mileage filter (HM16 for expmple) It doesn't mention it on the website, but I've just watched the very exciting "See How it Works" video for the Fram High-Mileage filters and the video clearly shows the "Anti-Drainback" valve in the HM series of filters.

Also, there is a similar thread on another board. About halfway down, they come around to the subject of adapter installation. See:

http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/f7/spin-filter-adapter-23790/

[badvibes]

Out of curiosity, did you use any additives or synthetic oil? By all accounts, if you used this filter and had your adapter plumbed wrong for the last 6500 miles, your engine should be in the same state as Scott's...

Mark-

No synthetics. Just Quaker State 20W-50.

Jeff

[scott]

I was just flipping through here and was wondering.... Is there a possibility that when your starter ran on that you had some bits fall down and got wedged between the ring gear and the housing?

Bill@ Riverton Rovers

nope, first thing i removed was the starter. it's in tact and bench tests fine

[yorker]

I've had Fram filters with faulty anti drainback valves right out of the box. I'd look to another brand-once you have assured that your filter adapter is correctly installed.... ;)

http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html

[jp-]

I was just flipping through here and was wondering.... Is there a possibility that when your starter ran on that you had some bits fall down and got wedged between the ring gear and the housing?

Bill@ Riverton Rovers

Good thought Bill. My dad had this happen on the 109. A bolt was left in the bell housing and it locked up the works.

Scott, try turning the motor counterclockwise, just a little bit.

Also, I fail to see how a spin on adapter can be bolted on wrong. The one that I put on the 88" could only go two ways, with the oil filter pointing straight up, or straight down. And since no oil filters point straight up, it had to go down.

P.S. - Fram sucks.

[SafeAirOne]

Also, I fail to see how a spin on adapter can be bolted on wrong. The one that I put on the 88" could only go two ways, with the oil filter pointing straight up, or straight down.

There are 2 types of adapters. One that bolts to the block then makes a 90-degree turn down and one where the filter sticks out sideways. See the 2 photos. Apparently the second kind can be installed 180 degrees wrong with the supply port over the return port on the block and vice-versa (or is it vise-versa?)

[daveb]

literally lol. wish I had some better ideas! let us know what happens :(


yea it's in neutral. tested that by hooking it to the back of the wife's lr and dragging it 8 miles home

[Moose]

With a cheapish filter, the oil will flow through backwards if your spin on adapter is mounted reversed. Believe me, I know. In my case, I had been running the 88 for a good 10 years or more. Then one day my case of Fram filters was empty. I bought a new filter, changed the oil that afternoon and set out for work. About 12 miles later, the engine seizes.

Few days later, we strip the engine down. The main bearings are knackered, so a grinding of the crank, new bearings, a thorough cleaning for the internals and it all goes back together complete with new oil and filter. Two miles up the road, the engine seizes. WTF!!!

Another strip down and this time, the bearings are toast, but the crank is still good. New bearing, another cleaning... and then we get smart. Why is this happening? We check every oil way we can find. All looks good. Then I notice my buddy Dave Lowe staring at the spin on oil filter adapter.

"Brett" he says "is this thing on the right way around? I think the oil pressure sender is supposed to be to the front"

"Yep, it's right, checked it myself. The wire to the oil pressure sender won't reach if it were on the other way", I says. "That's the way it's always been".

Then we get smarter. After a bit of research, (and a look at Dave's 88) we realize that yes, the thing is mounted 180 out. Bugga! But we wonder why the engine has been running fine all these years, then all of a sudden...

So we cut a filter in half for a look see. Sure enough, we spy the anti drain back business. Still curious though, we get on the phone to Fram. Turns out, about two years previous, they "improved" the anti drain back in there filters, and lucky me, they actually worked.

With the adapter mounted correctly, new oil and filter added, the engine has been running fine since.

I don't know if all the spin on adapters are created equal, but mine needs to be mounted with the oil pressure port pointing towards the front of the engine, tilted slightly up. Might be a good idea for anybody's who's is facing to the rear, to check and find out exactly which way it should face. May save you some grief down the road.

Brett

[scott]

thanks everyone. the insructions for them spinny adapty things should have a huge warning. mine is mounted with the oil sending unit to the rear cuz like moose said the wire for the light and the line for the pressure fit easier that way. ok he didn't say "easier" but us lazy folks need to know that there are more like us out there.

rocking it in 3rd would be like turning it forward and backward and i did that and it doesn't care it justs sits there like a bump on a log that just went 15 miles while spinning at 2000 rpm with no lube

moose, twice! i don't mean to be mean but thanks! now i don't feel as unfortunate.

[Jim-ME]

I'm sorry for everyone who has lost an engine but am I very happy I bought the Rover spin on oil filter part. If I lost my engine I'd be done.
Jim

[Moose]

moose, twice! i don't mean to be mean but thanks! now i don't feel as unfortunate.

Well, someone had to be the poor sap to figure out there was a potential problem with these adapters. Always willing to do my part for the cause.

I purposely left out the ending of the story because I didn't want to come across as too much of a putz, but...

After getting the engine running for the second time, all was well, till the next day. I came out that morning and found a nice little puddle under the Rover. Real seal leaking like a sieve. We had replaced the real main on the first engine out but figured it had only two miles on it, so why go through the hassle of changing it again, right? I guess what we neglected to realize that when an engine runs without oil circulating through it, well things can get pretty heated, and the rear seal suffered some what.

So the engine came out for a third time to change the rear seal. The beauty of this removal was Dave, Tom Tollefson and I were were getting so good at it from the time I drove the 88 into the shop till the engine cleared the wings was 35 minutes flat. At least we had that to be proud of.

Brett

[scott]

moose,

if you're ever in albuquerque stop by for a beer to celebrate the world record for r/r of a 2.25. (for how fast on the 3rd, not how many you've done)

badvibes has notice a difference in my attitude, i'm more of the pint's half full kind of guy now. i see the seized engine as an opportunity to look into a 200tdi conversion or a fresh rebuilt petro w/ an unleaded head. something to do this fall/winter. i've a 76 spitfire 1500 that i will be putting back on the road in the next couple of weeks. it's sat on blocks for 20 years.

[jp-]

Sorry about the engine Scott. I really am surprised that there was no knocking noise or anything though.

Good to hear that the Triumph will turn a wheel again. My TR4 hasn't turned one in 18 (motor's locked solid). I always wanted a GT6.

[greenmeanie]

This story makes me glad I bought the spin on adapter from RM. I remember the instructions making a big deal about the orientation of the adapter. IIRC he even puts the data plate on in a certain location to give you a reference.

Wierd thing is that I usually do the typical engineer thing of ignoring all instructions and figuring it out myself - except this one part.

Of course it doesn't help Scott now but for those thinking about buying one the RM part is well engineered.

Cheers
Gregor

[Moose]

My adapter is one of the originals and was installed by the previous owner way back in 1980, long before Rocky Mountain started offering them. For S*!ts and giggles, I dug out the instructions that came with all the other clutter when I got the truck in '84. Sure enough, right there in black and white, it says to "Position the assembled adaptor base on the engine oil filter mounting area so that the gauge port points towards the top front of the engine".

I guess my trucks PO did typical engineer thing of ignoring all instructions and figuring it out himself. Caused me some grief years later.

Brett