Colorado Reg Help Needed!

[JayGoss]

If you live in Colorado and have gone through the process of registering an antique Rover without a title please read on!

So a couple of years ago I purchased a 1960 Series II in need of restoration from a friend in VT for $3500. This friend happens to restore Rovers. I attempted to register it in Colorado with the bill of sale so that my friend could have plates to drive it after restoring it before shipping it to me. This didn't fly as CO DMV demands a VIN inspection by a CO state trooper in person; they will not accept this from an out of state VT cop. I had my friend go ahead and restore the vehicle and have paid him a high sum of money to do so. Now I have a totally restored Rover ready to ship to CO. When I inquired about the registration process it was explained to me that there is a 6-10 step process including vin inspection, record search (VT doesn't issue titles for vehicles over 20 years old so there is no title- only former owner's reg and bill of sale for $3500), retail value confirmation and something called a Bond that I have to apply/pay for to take place of a title. What I'm concerned about is I paid $3500 for the car. I then paid a VT shop to restore the vehicle- and I paid VT sales tax on the parts and labor to do the work because the car resided in VT. Now I find out that I have to get a retail value assessment so I can pay CO sales tax as part of the process. I was told I could either use Kelly Blue Book (no good- only goes back to 1988) or take the car (now in concourse condition w/$70k in labor/parts) to a dealer and have them appraise it. So it looks like I'm going to be paying a hefty sales tax because they are going to say, "hey...this Rover is beautiful...it's worth 40 grand!" when in reality I paid $3500 and have already paid sales tax on the labor and parts to get it to where it is today. I've thought about taking my receipts to the DMV and arguing my case- but my experience with them so far is they don't have the ability or decision-making skills to work with an unorthodox situation like mine. What they are saying I should have done is shipped the non-running vehicle to CO for a vehicle inspection by Colorado State Patrol, gone through the registration and bonding process, then shipped it back to VT for the restoration, then shipped it back to CO again to avoid the double taxing. I guess even if I have to pay taxes twice it will still be cheaper than paying fro shipping back and forth like that- but it just strikes me as odd that Colorado would have such a crazy policy like this- it's almost like I'm the first guy who's bought an antique vehicle from out of state.

My question is- does anyone out there from Colorado have any advice to keep me from getting taxed into kingdom come when I already have by the state of VT? Has anyone dealt with the registration process for a non-titled Rover from out of state? What's a Bond anyway? Thanks, in advance, for your help!

[leafsprung]

Normally, you pay sales tax on the purchase price of the car, not the improvements/retail value (if something is on sale at a store you pay tax on the sale price not the "retail price"). If you bought the truck for 3500, you should have a bill of sale stating that amount. You would then owe sales tax on the purchase price (3500). As for the tax on the parts and labor . . .Im guessing its too late, but you probably could have avoided that as well since you purchased those out of state (just like mail order)

(tax avoidence is legal :D, tax evasion is a illegal:( )


As for registering a non-titled vehicle from out of state . . .every state is different. You have to chat with your DMV about that. Normally it pays to talk to 4-5 different people because DMV employees dont know everything (or much at all in some cases) In most states its not a breeze, but its easier than what you are describing.

[LaneRover]

Not familiar with Colorado but I would second going to either a different DMV office or at least speaking with different folks.

I have found that it can also be helpful to just do it at your town hall.(you can do it in Maine not sure about CO)

What about registering it in your name in Vermont before you drive it/ship it across and then doing a transfer on a vehicle that you have owned for years (and is now registered) once you have it in Colorado. Just let them know that you kept it in Vermont for a number of years but now need it in CO. Vermont should be familiar with 'summer folk' with out os state addresses registering cars in Vermont.

Learn their rules so you can beat them to death with their own rules!

When I first registered my 58 in California I had someone at the DMV tell me that I needed to get it smogged. I told her that I didn't have to as it was old enough (this was before anything before 1974 was smog check free). She said that anything back to 1955 had to be smogged as that is when they first put smog equipment in. I reminded her that yes that was true if it was an AMERICAN car but since mine was of foreign manufacture it was good up until 1965.

Brent

[scott]

this will be of no help except to let you know your not living in the most backwarded state.

i bought a sankey trailer. as it has never been titled, previous owners a bunch of the queens finest, new mexco dmv wants me to send a title seach request to each of the 50 states asking for a search and a letter saying they've found no title. each state has it's own fee ranging from 50 cents to $15. i've gotta write 49 checks (nm is free, whoppee) and send out 50 request and wait for the biggest bureaucrats in every state to reply. this will probably take 4 or more months. and this is just one of the hoops they want me to jump through.

[jp-]

I've done a lot of car titling in my time, and it has never been as bad as it is now. DMV folk used to be friendly and easy to work with. Now it's like everything is a hassle and everyone a jerk. Reminding them that they work for me, the taxpayer, doesn't help... It seems that a few years ago the states got all panicked about people complaining that they had been duped (and threatening to sue) when they purchased a car that had a legit title, when the title was originally a salvage title. Up until 5-10 years ago, many states had no such thing as a salvage title. So, if you bought a wrecked car out of state and re-titled it, you ended up with a "clean" slate. Two things happened after much publicity on this, 1) Salvaged titles became much harder to turn around, even if the car was legitimately fixed and 2) Bills of sale were no longer recognized as proof of ownership. A classic example of government targeting all, rather than just the abusers.

The situation that you're in, is the exact reason that I NEVER spend money on a resto until I have a clear title in my hand. I have two cars right now that need resto's, but I'm still out the paperwork.

You have a few options. 1. You can have a friend title it in Vermont, and sell it back to you for $1000. Yeah, you will probably have to pay the tax again...

Or 2. You can pay an online company about $300 to secure an out of state title for you.

[LaneRover]

this will be of no help except to let you know your not living in the most backwarded state.

i bought a sankey trailer. as it has never been titled, previous owners a bunch of the queens finest, new mexco dmv wants me to send a title seach request to each of the 50 states asking for a search and a letter saying they've found no title. each state has it's own fee ranging from 50 cents to $15. i've gotta write 49 checks (nm is free, whoppee) and send out 50 request and wait for the biggest bureaucrats in every state to reply. this will probably take 4 or more months. and this is just one of the hoops they want me to jump through.

What no DNA sampling! You got off easy!

[xsbowes]

I think in most states, when you do the VIN check it is in a completely different location than the DMV and the state trooper/county employee could care less how much you paid or what its worth. They're mostly looking to ensure that there is a VIN number and its not a stolen car. For hawaii they take photos of the vehicle and the VIN plate for record purposes.

When I registered my 72 Ltwt in Washington, they would look up values in a classic car magazine, which contained no land rovers, so they had no choice to go with my purchase price ($5800).

[Tim Smith]

Not sure if this helps but in my state they just passed a law that states a vehicle over 25 years can't be assessed for more than $500. It used to be that your vehicle had to be registered as an antique for this to kick in. This has given me some agitation in the last few years because my 66 109 (which was 1/2 destroyed in a fire) was costing me something like $100 every year in property taxes, while my 74 (daily driver *most of the time*) was something like $11. I couldn't re-register the 66 as an antique because it was not drivable however I also didn't want to cancel registration because that would cost me another $100+ and since I wouldn't be showing a bill of sale and the vehicle would still in fact be in my possession, I'd still have been getting taxed.

The new law goes into effect this year so now I just have to pay this year's full rate. After that, the local tax man knows that I'll be expecting a rate reduction. ;)

I agree with the idea of registering it in another state first. Not sure how VT is but I remember friends doing the mail order registration through Maine. This was years ago and as JP says, things are different. Once you get the truck back you could then transfer the registration and hopefully avoid a reassessment. Of course, I'm not real sure how legal that approach would be either so do your homework first.

Good luck!

[Rineheitzgabot]

I believe that titling it in VT first, is a good idea. This will eliminate 50% of your trouble. Whether you do it yourself, or have someone else do it, it should make the CO transfer much easier. I used a copy of my ebay auction as a bill of sale. ;) It worked here in Indiana; I don't know about CO.

Learning all the rules is also good advice. We have all dealt with these bureaucratic SOB's and their, "My-job-is-to-make-your-transaction-as-inconvenient-as-possible" mission statements. This is why you knowing the rules is good. Beat them at their own game, and do it stress-free!

Good luck, and post photos of that mint beauty!

[meatblanket]

This brings back memories of my fun with Jeffco CO Motor Vehicle back in 2003 when I imported my 88 from Canada.

The state sends a list of required documents that must be presented to the county DMV before the county is allowed to issue a title. If the list of required documents includes a title, and all you have is a bill of sale, then they are going to make you do a bonded title.

A VIN verification is required on any out of state vehicle for which a Colorado title is requested.

I was denied by Jeffco people a couple of times before I appealed to the state, and eventually I was able to persuade the state person to direct the county to issue the title. However, my situation was completely different than yours, since it involved the adequacy of the Canadian "title"/registration that I had. But if I had no title, they were going to make me bond it, which is the procedure you are describing. They'll give you a handy booklet describing the procedure.

I should add that for taxation purposes, I don't think they consider what amount is stated on the bill of sale. You are going to pay whatever the county thinks your Rover is worth. In my case, I pay $3.00 per year for ownership tax, which is probably about right.....

On the other hand, if you are required to get an appraisal for issuance of the bonded title, different rules may apply.

[leafsprung]

I don't think they consider what amount is stated on the bill of sale. You are going to pay whatever the county thinks your Rover is worth.

Gotta love that :D

[Eric W S]

Man, that sucks. Went to a currency exchange, filled out some paperwork, surrendered the original signed title and 6 weeks later a received a title and plates from the state.

[Leslie]

My Series had been parked in a barn for a year or three, had been pulled out and partially gotten on the road (was havin' some issues, but, was more or less drivable). But, hadn't been registered in years, no title, etc.

I headed to the local DMV, and had previously told me they needed a *rubbing* of the chassis number; I walked in, had the plate in-hand, rubbed it on-the-spot for them. They filled out a form, sent it off to the state office to do a search. After 6 weeks, they sent me a title. Once I had the title, I went back and picked up a tag for it.

But that was a decade ago, I've heard they're no longer as friendly as they used to be. Really have become sticklers on having previous paperwork, etc. I traded in a vehicle to a car lot, then as the lot was selling it to the purchaser, the new owner screwed up signing the back of the title, and the lot have to have *me* request a new title and sign it over again, because they had thus inadvertently invalidated the original.

FWIW...

[JayGoss]

I believe that titling it in VT first, is a good idea. This will eliminate 50% of your trouble.

Wish I could- I guess VT won't issue titles for anything over 15 years old:(

[SafeAirOne]

Wish I could- I guess VT won't issue titles for anything over 15 years old:(

Same in New Hampshrie, which is no problem, except that when I moved to California for a few years, the DMV there gave me a registration that prohibited me selling my rover, since I had no title. I wasn't palnning on selling, so I only mildly protested, but the lazy civil servant behind the desk didn't devote too much time to verifying that older vehicles weren't issued titles in NH--she briefly looked it up in her book and told me "It doesn't say anything about that in here..." Case closed.

Whatever....:mad:

[yorker]

Wish I could- I guess VT won't issue titles for anything over 15 years old:(

NY won't either for anything '72 and earlier- your registration is the proof of ownership and is marked "transferable". I was kind of surprised when I heard about people with titles for vehicles that were that old & older.

[zayante]

I got my 109 titled and registered in CA on the bill of sale from the owner in New York (a "no title for pre-17 digit VIN" state) and an inspection of the serial number plate at the DMV.

The first counter person wasn't familiar with NY codes, but a senior co-worker confirmed my assertion re: title. My LR has a replacement galvy chassis and the ID plate had been removed from the bulkhead when it was hot-dip galvy'd, so I had to pop-rivet it back on (not in the original location, no less.)

Fortunately, I didn't have to explain the GM engine.

I guess I lucked out.

[Rineheitzgabot]

Wish I could- I guess VT won't issue titles for anything over 15 years old:(


Title it in Indiana, OR another state that has softer laws, then go to CO.

I bought a SIIA from a guy in NJ who never titled it. So the title that he gave me, was still registered to the dealer that he got it from. To make things worse, the dealer that he bought it from didn't exist anymore. I thought this was going to be impossible. I used my eBay auction as a bill of sale, and all I had to do was prove that the dealer did not exist anymore by sending a letter to the address of the dealer and presenting it to the BMV UNopened, once it was "returned to sender". Voila! A title in 6 weeks. Again, this is Indiana, there may be another state that is easier.

[JayGoss]

Title it in Indiana, OR another state that has softer laws, then go to CO.

Can you do that? Probably a dumb question but I thought you had to have a driver's license in the state you're titling a vehicle.

[Leslie]

Used to, wasn't too big of a hassle to title here. But, the local offices in the county tightened up (Sullivan Co. TN). Suddenly, if you had a used vehicle, it was easier to drive to Gate City, across the state line into Virginia in Scott County, and get a title there first. Then, Sullivan County would exchange for a state title. (This was with vehicles being brought over from the UK.... ) But, even Scott County tightened down, wasn't any easier there anymore.

[ybt502r]

I'm on the other side of your issue - I imported a SIII from the UK into Colorado. It took months to get it from Surrey to Mineral County, CO (a whole 'nother story). I had the UK bill of sale and the UK V5 form (which is basically their title but is actually the registration - vehicle license numbers stay with the vehicle for their lifetime). I had to get the VIN number verified by a state trooper, but after that I was issued a title and license with little fanfare. Perhaps it was easy because it was already licensed - though with only UK papers, I was expecting some issues, none of which materialised.

Not that this might help you, but I'm with the crowd that suggests getting it licensed in VT before you try to take it Colorado. Even if they won't give you a title, you can show that it is registered, it was sold, and that VT does not issue titles for something over 15 years old. I'd guess the concern in CO stems from the fact that you are bringing in a vehicle that "doesn't exist" in the system anywhere else.