Rear seats and roll bars

[2manykids4a7]

I have just bought a Series III 109" and am looking to get it set up so I can fit the kids in the back (2 in boosters and 2 in car seats). From looking through the other threads I have drawn the following conclusions.

1. Although roll overs are rare it is smarter to be safe than sorry so with kids back there a cage is a must.
2. Forward facing seats are a better idea than the troop carrier option.

That said, here are my questions.

1. Am I right in my assumptions?
2. If so, has anyone done something similar and if so what?
3. Are there pre-fabricated cages out there or is it best to build your own?
4. What seats fit back there?

I'm sure there is more but for now that's all I can think of.

Thanks for the help, Steve..

[leafsprung]

If you are concerned about saftey, buy a volvo. 40 year old rovers arent safe cars and nothing you do to them will make them really safe in a serious accident. (no airbags, no crumple zones, no head support, no side impact protection, no saftey glass, no real saftey features of any kind) Having said that, build your own cage. Many seats will fit in the back cj, samurai, d90, bronco, yj, beard, mastercraft etc etc you can even narrow an existing seat like a vanagon and then have it recovered.

[graniterover]

You don't mention if it's a SW or 3 door. Either way, 4 seats don't fit in a stock truck if you have a wife in the front. The easiest way would be to bolt in a cj rear seat in the way back for the kids in car seats. I'm not sure what I'd do for the boosters. With no neck support in the sw seats, boosters would not be a good idea.

The inward facing seats are not an option with boosters or car seats.

I'm not aware of anyone who sells an internal cage for a 109 so you're either building one or paying for someone to build one for you. Since you have 4 kids, I'm going to guess you're going to be paying someone for one soon.

[Leslie]

A) I concur, do *not* use side-facing seats w/ kids, for their own safety....

B) Safety Devices made/makes pre-fabbed roll cages, but, they're not so easy to obtain (Stable Energies might be able to get one for you), aren't cheap, and, really aren't designed for making use of the rear compartment w/ kids, it's more of a competition cage. Ike's right, something custom built might be a better route for you.

C) Assuming a 5-door, you could, again as Ike mentioned, add a forward-facing CJ seat to the back cargo area, then have one or two of them there, and then the others in the back seat.

D) What is the 109 used for? If it's a weekend-only, at low speeds in rural areas w/ low traffic, then I don't know that I'd bother w/ a cage. If you're using it daily, in city traffic, or worse, highway traffic, at speed...... I'd say, get an Outback or a Forester instead.....

IMHO, FWIW...

[xsbowes]

If it is the same rover as in the "Show me your Series thread". I'd recommend the Mark I seats by Exmoor for your load area with a very well made roll cage.



http://www.exmoortrim.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=37&Itemid=65

[2manykids4a7]

Thanks everyone,

To answer as many of the questions as I can. It is the one in the show me your series section, it is a 3 door and has plenty of room back there for 2 rows of seats. It isn't a daily driver, will just be used for fun, trips to the beach, kids football (soccer) games etc. Unfortunately we live in a town that has the worst accident rate in the state and a traffic system that isn't particularly well planned, so I can't just take back roads to get anywhere.

I really like the point about head and neck support for kids on boosters, I had thought about using bench seats out of a CJ but they don't come with headrests. I don't have any problems with making whatever I use permanent, so I don't need them to fold down or to the side, plus I don't care about ease of access the kids climb over everything anyway!

So here's my initial plan. Find 2 bench seats (or 4 individuals, but this is less likely to fit) with headrests that fit back there (I don't care where they come from, new, pick and pull). Construct a cage and bracket system (either together or separately) that gives roll over protection, securely fastens the seats in the vehicle and provides mounting points for seatbelts.

What do you guys think?
I really liked the exmoor seats but don't need the folding capabilities etc. so wonder what else I could use?

Steve..

Edit: Bestop make a rear CJ seat with headrests for about $300, so I at least have one option there.

[109 Pretender]

I think Leafsprung probably had best advice for you. Remember, the reason Land Rover Defenders aren't imported for sale by manufacturer is because the design doesn't lend itself to meeting the current safety regulations. While a cage would help in roll-over, the more likely accident would be a side impact or frontal/rear hit. Look at all the exposed metal in your series - and watch a consumer report video w/test dummy banging all over the inside of a NEW vehicle that meets safety regs. Think about how your kids would be thrown around - even w/seatbelts on there is a very close proximity for the head, neck, and shoulder regions to contact the body metal. I could never recommend child booster seats in a series rover - roll cage or not. Save the rover for grown up play time - get a modern safer vehicle to transport your most precious cargo.

[109 Pretender]

Here's something I ran across on the web that basically says maybe we are wrong in assuming Rovers are not safe???


Road accident statistics on a model-by-model basis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_accident_statistics_on_a_model-by-model_basis) from the UK Department of Transport show that the Land Rover Defender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Defender) and Land Rover Discovery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Discovery) are the safest cars on British roads (measured in terms of chance of death in two car injury accidents) - between three times safer than the safest Volvo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_Cars) models, twice as safe (half the death-rate per two vehicles injury accident) compared with the Jeep Cherokee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_Cherokee) and Toyota Land Cruiser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Land_Cruiser) and only matched by the Mercedes-Benz S-Class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_S-Class) and Jaguar XJ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_XJ).

I think it's because they are driven so sloooow....:rolleyes:

Cheers!

[2manykids4a7]

Hmmm, interesting.

Obviously I care about my kids and in some ways if I even press on with the idea I look like an a$$. That said I have had my kids in the back of a CJ off and on for 6 years so I'm already that guy. Thankfully everything has been fine and I do drive slowly (not really many other options!!) and as defensively as possible.

What I appreciate about forums like these is the variety of opinions and extra thoughts that you get. Up until now my kids have always been in seats with built in headrests, if it hadn't been for the above comments it wouldn't have crossed my mind to make headrests a must on any bench seats.

Clearly there are no guarantees and there is always more you can do, but if I do go forward with this the more ideas and help I can get beforehand the better.

Thanks, Steve..

[leafsprung]

show that the Land Rover Defender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Defender) and Land Rover Discovery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Discovery) are the safest cars on British roads


That study is pretty worthless. Leaves out single vehicle accidents and incredibly it also leaves out passenger fatalities/injuries!!! Why would someone leave out that data unless they were trying to skew the results?

"""It is important to note that these statistics relate to DRIVER deaths or injuries, not to passenger or pedestrian deaths or injuries.""""

[SafeAirOne]

That study is pretty worthless.

To add to that, I see that the source of the data is Wikipedia. Don't believe everything you read on wikipedia--It is fairly well known that anyone can modify the info on the site, and companies often go in and change or add information to show their product in a favorable light.

[2manykids4a7]

I'm not trying to purely justify my idea, but if you follow the link it is to the department of transport, and although it is only driver related there may be a correlation to passengers as well.

That said, I'd still like to hear of any other things people think I need to be considering.

[Leslie]

Uh......

Okay, lemme point out.... there's a *BIG* difference between a Series and a Disco.....

Go over to Dweb and check out all of the accidents that could have easily been fatalities, that instead, people walked away from, because of how a Disco is built.

A Series isn't padded, doesn't have bucket seats, door braces, a steel cage-structure like a Series (Disco roofs are steel, w/ the pillars), etc.

A Defender does step up from the Series w/ safety features, but, I'd still rather put the family in a Disco instead of the Series on a regular basis, if as a daily driver.

With that said, have to admit, the kids love the Series, they argue over who's turn it is to go ride with me (only a two-seater at the moment)... I wouldn't do it regularly, long highway trips, etc., but, a weekend run-around the neighborhood, up a light trail, round town, it's a lot of fun....

[Mountain132]

I put a Cj seat from quadratec in the back of my '70 88 which also folds forward for space. I use a rear facing car seat and the baby loves it. Puts him to sleep in seconds. We only use it to the park and about 5mi from the house, no high speeds. quadratec also has bench seats with head rests. Make sure to get seatbelts.

[JRover]

Actually children surviving car accidents is much less dependent on the vehicle and much more dependent on the type of carseat used and whether it is properly installed.

If a proper roll bar is built with supports going to the frame and properly fabricating securing points for a seat with a 3 point attachment system and 5 point harness, it should be fine in all but the worst crashes. There are several child seats that would do this and offer side impact protection. Britax is one, there are others. Oh and would also add Ike's sliders for additional side protection. Thats what i told my wife they are for.

[2manykids4a7]

I wasn't using the disco for comparison but the defender (although I realise that again I am making a correlation and that is all).

Sliders is a good idea, and I'm already there with the car seats when buying those we just went with the highest rated, seemed like a good idea whatever vehicle you put them in.

I agree that a cage that doesn't tie into the frame isn't smart. I wonder if it is possible to somehow combine the cage ,the brackets for the seats, and harness points for seat belts all in one, to make a sort of "pod" (can't think of a better word) that surrounds the seating area?

P.S. To those who have admitted (that like me) they put kids in similar vehicles thanks for not making me feel so bad! I'm not planning any long trips at all, but like you say they love it even just to tool around the neighbourhood, the girls were so excited when I bought the Land Rover home although they at first called it a Jeep (they now know the difference!).

[Alaska Mike]

I don't think you're a bad parent at all. I have no problems letting my kids ride in the back of the Rover- buckled in properly and supported according to their age. On longer distance (80+ miles) highway trips to the trailhead, I usually have the wife take the family car so the kids are comfortable and entertained (DVD) and we have a backup if the Rover has mechanical difficulties that I can't fix. I never wheel alone, so the second bit is less important than the first, but it is an option in case of a medical emergency or contingency.

Would I use the Rover as a daily driver with the kids for around town? Probably not, since I have cars that are better suited for that purpose that get far better gas mileage, are safer, and are more comfortable. I imagine there will be days that I will use it for that purpose though, but we don't have a lot of traffic up here. Bad drivers we have. Tough driving conditions we have. Traffic? Not so much.

[scott]

all of these comments sound like that of great parents. makes me rethink that wrapping mine in duct tape and bubble wrap and just toss'n in the tub was not such a good idea. when we were a young family of just three with our daughter under a y/o my daily driver was the spitfire. i installed a lap belt with overkill mentality in the middle of that small space behind our seat and secured a quality baby seat that did not extend above the plane of the boot lid. i felt she was secure but was never really happy with putting her in such a small car that would surely lose in any contact with the average size vehicle on our roads

[2manykids4a7]

all of these comments sound like that of great parents. makes me rethink that wrapping mine in duct tape and bubble wrap and just toss'n in the tub was not such a good idea.

Lol, nice!

Thanks guys. I do think I am going to press forwards and will keep posting thoughts and progress, so please chime in with any comments advice, warnings etc. Right now it is in the shop getting everything taken care of to pass inspection, but as soon as it is out I'll be visiting the local 4x4 shop, to talk cages.

[S11A]

Hi,

This thread may have some relevant info on seat choices, belts, etc.:

http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3382

[S11A]

Here is another thread that may help. It includes a link to some Exmoor trim seats that are fairly pricey but would be approved for children including those in car seats:

http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2790

[2manykids4a7]

SIIA,

Thanks for the links.

I am looking into putting 2 jeep bench seats (with headrests) back there. I don't know exactly where I am going to put my anchor points for the seat belts. I am wondering whether I can somehow combine this with the roll bar, similar to how the Jeep scrambler does it in the cab.

I may even end up with one roll bar for up front and then a roll bar/seat bracket combo that fits as a single unit in the bed and can be bolted down onto the frame. Once I have the vehicle back from the shop I'll have to look at the dimensions and different possibilities.

Steve..