Electrice Series?

[thixon]

http://planetgreen.discovery.com/tv/mean-green-machines/mgm-red-rock-rumble.html

Did anybody else see the electric series yesterday on planet green? Pretty stupid show, and the comparison was dumb, but the guy appears to have mated an electric motor (I assume an electric airplane starter) directly to the original tranny. They just did'nt show enough of the truck to be able to tell.

[thixon]

http://www.evparts.com/article_zoom.php?ARTICLESTAG=roverFaceOffPhotos

Here's a link from the guys website with some photos. Enjoy.

[Leslie]

I caught that a month or so again when the station debuted (well, at least, when it appeared here, we hadn't had that station before).

I'd seen that website years ago, though, thought it was really neat. Always wondered how you'd put a snorkel on it, though..... ;)

[SafeAirOne]

Didn't see the show. Matter of fact, I don't even have cable TV. I'm just putting 1 and 1 together here...Judging by the "Planet Green" name and the electric motor, I'm guessing that there is some inference that the mighty electric land rover is saving polar bears in the arctic?

I looked at the photos and didn't see any 1/2-mile-long wagon train of solar panels being dragged behind the rover nor any windmill farms sticking out of the back of the rover.

I don't want to jump to conclusions here, though. Perhaps it was just a crazy, fun, weird "let's see if we can power a rover by an electric motor" experiment. What Gives??

[yorker]

I saw that Series a while ago- It seems like it was in the 1990's. A few years later the one partner from the firm- Bob- came to Howard Smith's Guy Fawkes ralley. I talked to him about the electric series and he mentioned that it was interesting to drive because of the constant torque the electric motor had. Last I knew Bob had split up with the EV business and was making an expedition 101 with a 300tdi and camper out of a 101 ambulance.

[Tim Smith]

The TV show certainly is about greening things up but me thinks the builder is a little more into having fun. I found out about the Electro Rover and Roderick Wilde a few years ago but have been trying to find out more ever since. The concept is pretty simple really, swap out the 2.25 for an electric. I believe his setup uses the AdvanceDC FB1-4001 which is not an aircraft starter motor. In fact from what I've read, that motor can push the little 88 well past 80 miles an hour and gives it a 0-60 time somewhere in the 11 second range. Also with mounting most of the batteries low and between the frame rails, he's able to get a very impressive lean out of the thing before going axx over tea kettle.

There are drawbacks though. On batteries alone, you'de be limited to probably 30-40 miles per charge on the roads. You also don't want to get the controller wet in a river crossing or you'de be sunk. Although everything else will work under water.

There was an article about the truck in LRO or LRM back in 1990 or so. Although it was light on some of the details, it documents a test run between this truck and another 88 that was set up pretty much exactly as this only was still running the 2.25. If memory serves, it won in all categories until it suffered a breakdown (was still in testing at the time) and dropped it out of the compairison. They were even running a small generator in the back which was able to keep the thing going all day long but I don't know if it could sustain highway speeds with it...

I've been seriously considering this as the next stage evolution of the lightweight but have a few other projects to get out of the way first. Would be great for local runs to town or for commuting to work (maybe) and then would probably make an incredible power plant for the trails. Like it's been said, near 100% torque from a dead stop and would have a rpm range up to about 5 or 6000. And quiet. :thumb-up:

Here are some links.
Suck Amps Racing (http://www.suckamps.com/)
Series Landy Adaptor (http://www.evparts.com/prod-AD2170.htm)
Some of the story about the Electro Rover (http://www.evparts.com/galleries_zoom.php?GALLERIESTAG=2)
The face off challenge (http://www.evparts.com/article_zoom.php?ARTICLESTAG=roverFaceOff)

There is a lot more info out there but you'll have to do your own research. I certainly am no expert on any of this.

[thixon]

Tim,

Interesting. I went to the sucks amps site. Looks like it would be a fairly easy conversion, but between the controller and the motor you can spend some bucks quick (not to mention the batteries). For now I'll stick with the dino juice.

[Tim Smith]

Looks like it would be a fairly easy conversion, but between the controller and the motor you can spend some bucks quick (not to mention the batteries).
Yeah, you sure can. I figure you could probably drop 10,000 in a decent conversion. Not really for the faint of heart. :(

Did a little U-tubing and found the show. Rangie VS e-Series. Enjoy!

Part 1:
1

Part 2:
2

Part 3:
3

Part 4:
4

They are saying 0-60 in 4 seconds! I agree, the show is pretty stupid...

[TeriAnn]

So I've been wondering, what if you convert to electric. You still have all this space in the engine compartment. Why not a small 1 or 2 cylinder diesel engine driving an alternator? Build a Hybrid.

[superstator]

So I've been wondering, what if you convert to electric. You still have all this space in the engine compartment. Why not a small 1 or 2 cylinder diesel engine driving an alternator? Build a Hybrid.

I've actually done a fair amount of research on this, since I had that very idea when I bought my 109. There's some big question marks as to how much power you really need to be able to cruise, and how much extra efficiency you'd get from a series hybrid setup (series as in non-parallel, not Series x). So far I've assumed about 30kw (~40hp) minimum, which with most commercial gensets would be at least 2gph, which means a decent-but-not-amazing 30mpg at highway speed. You might improve on that with regen braking and plug-in charging, but the only way to know for sure how much would be to build it and find out.

Then there's that pesky cost issue; $10k+ for the electric conversion, plus the genset and accoutrement, and a 200tdi on bio-d looks better and better as a "green" rover. Not to say I've given up on the idea; but I need a lot more disposable income and shop space before I can really play with it... :D

[Tim Smith]

Yup. The genset in the back is a way to go and I kinda played around with that idea too. Part of the problem would be the loss of efficiency in the energy conversion process. So even though you'd be getting locomotion from an electric motor which is a very very efficient means of power, either creating more power or storing the power on board is the draw back.

I've heard it said (so take this with a grain of salt) that the battery pack in your average electric conversion only holds about as much energy as a gallon of petrol. You can figure that the average battery pack is in the neighborhood of 96 to 120 volts. Generally that would be around 10 12 volt batteries or 20 6 volt batteries. Think of that weight in everyday use! Litium batteries are an option but the cost gets a bit silly going that route.

Then for on board power generation you would have to add the complexity and cost of adding a generator to the mix. And we're not talking about a small home back up generator that is 5 - 10 kW either. Well now you're going to be looking at one heck of a lot stuff to figure out.

I was thinking that an old military generator mounted to a trailer would be a nice way of getting long distances. But still, how do you hook that into the mix to make sure you're charging all the batteries at the same rate while drawing power at variable rates.

In the end it's probably going to be very expensive and also probably wouldn't pass much savings back to the owner. Makes you start to realize why diesel electric locomotives are such wonders.

Yeah, I'm thinking bio-diesel is a little bit simpler.

[LaneRover]

Part of the problem would be the loss of efficiency in the energy conversion process. So even though you'd be getting locomotion from an electric motor which is a very very efficient means of power, either creating more power or storing the power on board is the draw back.


In any electric car there is going to be lots of efficiency drains. The fuel to run the generator(whether it is in a trailer or from the power company) the loss in storing to batteries even the loss of efficiency in powering the motor. I think that an electric vehicle only really works as a 'green solution' if you have solar panels or a wind mill making your power. Other than that it is not a good use of natural resources - not to mention the nasty stuff that goes into making the batteries.
Of course if I had solar panels it would be pretty darn cool to make an electric Rover to cruise around town in!

[superstator]

In any electric car there is going to be lots of efficiency drains. The fuel to run the generator(whether it is in a trailer or from the power company) the loss in storing to batteries even the loss of efficiency in powering the motor. I think that an electric vehicle only really works as a 'green solution' if you have solar panels or a wind mill making your power. Other than that it is not a good use of natural resources - not to mention the nasty stuff that goes into making the batteries.
Of course if I had solar panels it would be pretty darn cool to make an electric Rover to cruise around town in!

Most electric motors are about 90% efficient, and batteries are more like 99%. There have been plenty of studies to show that a pure electric is cleaner than an internal combustion powered vehicle, even when the electricity comes from something like a coal plant, simply because large scale electricity generation is so much more efficient than a small engine as to more than make up any losses in transmission and storage.

And of course if your vehicle is pure electric, you've decoupled it from the actual power source. As things like wind, solar, nuclear, etc. get added to the grid, your vehicle gets more efficient without you lifting a finger...

[LaneRover]

Most electric motors are about 90% efficient, and batteries are more like 99%. There have been plenty of studies to show that a pure electric is cleaner than an internal combustion powered vehicle, even when the electricity comes from something like a coal plant, simply because large scale electricity generation is so much more efficient than a small engine as to more than make up any losses in transmission and storage.

And of course if your vehicle is pure electric, you've decoupled it from the actual power source. As things like wind, solar, nuclear, etc. get added to the grid, your vehicle gets more efficient without you lifting a finger...

How expensive are those 99% efficient batteries? What about replacing batteries? What about too many people going for electric cars that place massive demands on the system?

You may have a point and electric vehicles may be the way to go - in the future - but if I can't drive from San Diego to LA or from Portland Maine to Boston because of the limited range then it is not very useful and is a rich persons toy to show they are being 'ecologically conscious' to the masses.

[superstator]

How expensive are those 99% efficient batteries? What about replacing batteries? What about too many people going for electric cars that place massive demands on the system?


Very expensive, and I may have imagined hearing about a battery that efficient anyway. El cheapo lead acids are more like 75-80%. For grid demand, the assumption has always been that people would charge at night when the grid is relatively quiet, but that leads right into the range issue: noone has yet figured out how to truely fast-charge an electric vehicle the same way you can a traditional car, and if they did, those new electric filling stations would put some serious hurt on the existing infrastructure. Which leaves you with no way to top off on the way to Boston.



You may have a point and electric vehicles may be the way to go - in the future - but if I can't drive from San Diego to LA or from Portland Maine to Boston because of the limited range then it is not very useful and is a rich persons toy to show they are being 'ecologically conscious' to the masses.

I totally agree. Doesn't stop it being a fun engineering exercise, though. Personally, I think something like algal biodiesel has a better chance of being a near-term alternative for a lot of people; it's essentially bottled solar energy, can be grown on marginal land with very high density, and works just like any other biodiesel. No magical heavy-metal batteries required.

[Tim Smith]

I'd have to agree with the comments above. Certainly there are pluses and minuses to switching to electric. Going electric couldn't really be a panacea, saving us from global warming but rather a fun engineering exercise.

And to say that going electric would be just a rich persons toy might be a stretch. Just look at some of the rolling junk that people are converting...
http://www.evalbum.com/

Although, these two aren't too crappy if you ask me. :D
http://www.evalbum.com/type/LAND

Cheers!

[adkrover]

I think you'd find that most people do their driving within the reasonable range for electric vehicles. I suppose there are exceptions if you are a salesman that travels a great deal or a postal worker that is driving all day but for the most part they would work for our daily vehicles. To say that if I can't drive from one major city to another non-stop means we shouldn't bother with electric vehicles is pretty stupid in my opinion. It reminds me of a guy I had on a job once that said because the windows in a house only have an R-value of about 2 that we shouldn't bother insulating the walls. That kind of thinking is just wrong. If we all had an electric vehicle to use for our daily driving within range and a full bank of solar and wind to help charge our vehicles, we would use only a fraction of the gas we use today. We could all still have our highway vehicles for longer trips and big trucks for pulling a load or gathering firewood but there is a real place for electric and hybrid vehicles.

I suppose I sound like some eco-terrorist but before you get all down on me, I do have a Prius that really does get 55 miles per gallon and is a joy to drive but I also have a Toyota 4 Runner for expeditions in the snow, a 3/4 ton Chevy with a snowplow and a deisel sucking John Deere tractor. All have very good uses when used properly. If I were going to drive cross country, I'd take the Prius but if I needed to pull the tractor to a jobsite I'd use the Chevy. I bet if we as a country would invest a bit more time into developing alternatives, we'd find that an electric truck will actually pull that tractor better and more efficiently. That's exactly why freight trains and large cruise ships are powered by diesel electric hybrids.

Maybe if the "big 3" go under, someone will buy up their plants and start making vehicles for the future. Unfortunately it will most likely not be an American company that does it. Remember that the internal combustion engine has changed very little since it's invention so long ago. Maybe it's time for an upgrade? A new way of thinking? Unfortunately, with attitudes like some of those expressed here, we may be doomed to buying crap vehicles that keep us hooked on oil like crack addicts.

[Eric W S]

It's already happening. Nissan, Toyota and Honda are all locked into producing the next greatest hybrid. Nissan announced last year that they will have an all electric sentra in 2011...

I bet in 10 years that the technology will out pace gas in sales.

Cars are only part of the problem. Electric plants produce more emmissions and you'd be surprised what your house does to the environment.

Just a matter of time.

EDIT: which is finally good for us and finally bad for oil producers. We'll get that money back soon enough...

[Tim Smith]

Cars are only part of the problem. Electric plants produce more emissions and you'd be surprised what your house does to the environment. I've got to agree. Our electric infrastructure needs a lot of work before we can call it a green source of power.

I think home electric car conversions are great thing but they're certainly not going to save the world. Mind though, it wouldn't be a bad thing to try and just think of the extra beer money you'd have at the end of the week. :D

Lets also not forget that the story of the electric car is older than the story of the gasser. Go ahead and google it. It's pretty interesting stuff really.

[adkrover]

I'm not saying that electric cars will save the planet but it will go a long way toward keeping American dollars in America if we can develop the patents for them and produce them here. Instead of Detroit wasting so much time trying to build the hottest retro cars like the Hemi, Camaro and Mustang (all of which I personally like but think the rest of their products look like crap) they should be more focused on cars that are in fact practical and more efficient. BTW, some of the fastest supercar prototypes are electric.

I agree that electric doesn't equal green when it's produced in a coal or nuclear plant. We need to improve on hydro, wind, solar and who knows what else is out there that we haven't even figured out yet. I personally have solar panels and windmills on my house and they work great. I don't have enough to be completely free from other power sources but that's only because I haven't committed enough funds to it yet but it is practical and it does work. Europe is far ahead of the US on the road to energy independence. We just need to get together as a country and a culture to accept that we need to make a change. When I first installed my system, the electrician on the job kept scoffing at how much "real" electricity I could buy with the cost of the panels and batteries. I tried to convince him that wasn't the point but I don't think he got my drift.

There are also a lot of people I think have the issues confused. I'm in the Adirondacks and there's an owner of an abandoned strip mine who wants to turn it into a windfarm. The land is completely baren, stands on a great hill for wind and already has the large power transmission lines from the old mining days. The local environmentalists are opposed to it because it won't be asthetically pleasing in the natural scenery.

I'm sure someone will remind us soon that this is a forum about old trucks and not the environment but as gearheads, we all have to take some responsibilty for our fun and games.

[LaneRover]

To say that if I can't drive from one major city to another non-stop means we shouldn't bother with electric vehicles is pretty stupid in my opinion.

We could all still have our highway vehicles for longer trips and big trucks for pulling a load or gathering firewood but there is a real place for electric and hybrid vehicles.

I didn't say we shouldn't bother with them because you can't drive from one city to another. I said that I wouldn't bother with them until you can drive from one city to another. (or maybe that is what I meant) There are some severe limitations to electric vehicles and hybrids. A LOT more stuff has to be worked out before pure electric vehicles are a viable option. From battery technology to recycling to power transmission what about resale when the battery pack is past its prime? Right now you have to REALLY be into electric vehicles to have an all electric vehicle. Or can afford to keep an electric car for just around town.

You are quite lucky that you can have those vehicles and have space for them. Many people can't for cost or land.

Are electric or hybrid vehicles the answer or like an ineffective band-aid that makes us feel better but really doesn't do much? Only time will tell.

Personally I think that it would be neat to build an electric Rover someday. Until then I will have to be glad that my Rovers are recycled and unlike a current day Hybrid hasn't added much in the way of a big scary carbon footprint in recent memory :-P

[adkrover]

Like I said, some people just don't get it.

[Eric W S]

Nissan expects an all electric car in 2010 in the US. Working with State of Oregon to ensure infrastructure needs are met.

Google it.

Good news from an economic standpoint. Honda testing Hydrogen in Cali, Nissan starting all electric in Oregon. The free market at work. Wonder what the oil producing countries are thinking? They have to know that another spike like this summer and it's the death knell for gasoline as we know it.

This genie ain't going back in the bottle with the success of the Prius and for once, I can honestly say that I am hopeful that the free market will deliver sooner than later.

Might have to see who is making batteries and is listed on the exchange :thumb-up:

[greenmeanie]

Oh please,
"Wonder what the oil producing countries are thinking? They have to know that another spike like this summer and it's the death knell for gasoline as we know it."

I know what they are thinking.
1. The cars that run on electricity are going to need a bucket load of plastics for all those electric gizmos.
2. Recycling all those electric gizmos takes a bucket load of energy which is predominantly oil generated.
3. Even if the US market evaporates, which is highly unlikely, you'll find that China and India are buying up every last drop they can get their hands on. As their economies and wealth grow there are more cars on their roads and more demand for oil.
4. The day that the path of the product from raw materials to fully integrated battery pack does not involve at least one circumnavigation of the globe on an oil buring ship they may be called green.
5. The day I see a 60 ton 18 wheeler cruising on by on electric I'll know that serious progress has been made.

I'll tell you what the oil producing countries are thinking- they are laughing their heads off as they know the market for their oil is not going away.

The oil based economy is far bigger than whether or not you can collect your groceries in your Prius or your SUV and the equation to address the issues with the price and availability of alternatives is extremely complex. Basic infrastructure and lifestyle changes will have far more effect than the car you drive.

[Eric W S]

Oh please,
"Wonder what the oil producing countries are thinking? They have to know that another spike like this summer and it's the death knell for gasoline as we know it."

I know what they are thinking.
1. The cars that run on electricity are going to need a bucket load of plastics for all those electric gizmos.
2. Recycling all those electric gizmos takes a bucket load of energy which is predominantly oil generated.
3. Even if the US market evaporates, which is highly unlikely, you'll find that China and India are buying up every last drop they can get their hands on. As their economies and wealth grow there are more cars on their roads and more demand for oil.
4. The day that the path of the product from raw materials to fully integrated battery pack does not involve at least one circumnavigation of the globe on an oil buring ship they may be called green.
5. The day I see a 60 ton 18 wheeler cruising on by on electric I'll know that serious progress has been made.

I'll tell you what the oil producing countries are thinking- they are laughing their heads off as they know the market for their oil is not going away.

The oil based economy is far bigger than whether or not you can collect your groceries in your Prius or your SUV and the equation to address the issues with the price and availability of alternatives is extremely complex. Basic infrastructure and lifestyle changes will have far more effect than the car you drive.

Not really. You can't disregard two very strong market mechanisms. One - Oil is trading over 45 a barrel. At that price Tar sand (oil trapped in sand), deep heavy crude, and coal liquification turn the profitbality corner and become profitable. and Two - The US, Coal, and Canada, Tar Sand have than 500 years of oil supple between the two of them.

SO what has happened? Canada just brought a second tar shale plant into production and there are investment groups looking into coal liquification in the states. The US Military is testing fuel made from coal as we speak.

Ergo the Cartel and the ability to control price is eroding fast.

India and China will follow the laws of economics. Plan and simple. China was severly hurt when the price was 145 a gallon. Their oil industry is propped up by their government. India is producing a car that gets 50 miles a gallon. Both are getting killed as much as we are in regards to GDP and most likely will hurt for much longer as they are major exporters. They are seeing the exact same demand erosion as we are.

Things are starting to speed up as far as alternatives. The term Green didn't even exist 10 years ago. Now it's almost 5% of Housing raw materials and they are creating a strong brand loyalty for them. The Prius came on board. Nuclear energy is being reinvestigated as a power source. Wind stations being built. Bio reactors being made from landfills. Oregon and Cali are already building infrastructure for alternative fuels...

Point is that if you look at what has happened in just 10 years, the sum of parts are starting to build. There will be considerable advances made in Alternative energy. We are approaching a critical mass where oil will be on the way out.

And the Saudis aren't laughing. They have hired some the the brightest in all industries to analyze and re-analyze their position and options. If they weren't scared, they wouldn't have even commented when Oil hit 145 over the summer. They immediately blamed the market and sought to drop the price. If they weren't worried, they would have cut production during the peak to artificially prop prices up for as long as possible...

But they didn't....