1963 Series IIA Project Questions (Jeep Conversion)

[zknife]

Hello everyone!! Well I just found this place recently and have been reading voraciously and I have learned a ton, thanks for all the great info.

I have a 1963 Series IIA 88" right-hand drive military version land-rover that I want to get running for use as a daily driver. This Rover had sat unmoving in an open barn at my grandparents house for around 30 years. I am pleased to say that not only did it survive me using it as a tank in my imaginary war games when I was little but it has also survived the weather pretty well. I currently have it torn down to the frame from the fire wall back and there is only very light surface rust on the steel parts. The frame is in great shape and all the body parts are 100% no dents!! However it seems that all of the mechanicals are pretty much siezed up. Tires dont turn pedals dont move etc.

Well, my plans are to get her into good enough shape to serve as my only vehicle. I would like to make this a very reliable vehicle capable of towing, 4wheel drive, and interstate/cross-country travel. Unfortunately I have very limited funds.

My hypothetical plan is to purchase a wrecked Jeep Wrangler and to put the drive train (engine, trans, shafts, etc..) into my land rover frame. I would end up with what looks like an original Series IIA but with all the internal workings of a modern Jeep. I feel that this will give me better reliability, replacement parts access, and more power for towing/long trips. I am hoping that this will also be the cheaper route to getting a reliable vehicle versus a classic restoration.

I would appreciate any feedback from you all on this project. This would be my first attempt at something like this, although I do have professional help.

Is this possible? Has anyone ever done his before? Am I crazy?

Thanks for the help everyone!!

Eric.

[I Leak Oil]

You'll end up needing to modify it so much you may as well try to fit a rover body onto a Jeep rolling chassis if that's what you want. Better yet, just buy a jeep. That's better than hacking up a relatively solid rover. I've seen a couple trucks modified as you envision. One was alright, the other was not done well and was a basket case.
Jason T.

[Eric W S]

Hello everyone!! Well I just found this place recently and have been reading voraciously and I have learned a ton, thanks for all the great info.

I have a 1963 Series IIA 88" right-hand drive military version land-rover that I want to get running for use as a daily driver. This Rover had sat unmoving in an open barn at my grandparents house for around 30 years. I am pleased to say that not only did it survive me using it as a tank in my imaginary war games when I was little but it has also survived the weather pretty well. I currently have it torn down to the frame from the fire wall back and there is only very light surface rust on the steel parts. The frame is in great shape and all the body parts are 100% no dents!! However it seems that all of the mechanicals are pretty much siezed up. Tires dont turn pedals dont move etc.

Well, my plans are to get her into good enough shape to serve as my only vehicle. I would like to make this a very reliable vehicle capable of towing, 4wheel drive, and interstate/cross-country travel. Unfortunately I have very limited funds.

My hypothetical plan is to purchase a wrecked Jeep Wrangler and to put the drive train (engine, trans, shafts, etc..) into my land rover frame. I would end up with what looks like an original Series IIA but with all the internal workings of a modern Jeep. I feel that this will give me better reliability, replacement parts access, and more power for towing/long trips. I am hoping that this will also be the cheaper route to getting a reliable vehicle versus a classic restoration.

I would appreciate any feedback from you all on this project. This would be my first attempt at something like this, although I do have professional help.

Is this possible? Has anyone ever done his before? Am I crazy?

Thanks for the help everyone!!

Eric.

www.expeditionportal.com (http://www.expeditionportal.com) - Land Rover section. I think Alaska Mike? is doing something similar. Check the Gubblemobile thread.

From reading it, it doesn't seem like it is easy or cheap.

[Leslie]

You might find more assistance on the Hybrid board here, as that's what you'd be building.

Usually, modifications are more like, putting in Toyota axles, or a Rover Tdi 200, or even a Rover V8. There are other engines that are fairly common for swaps over other ones.

I liked the old Jeep 258 engine, but as an inline 6, it was long, you would want to start w/ a NADA Rover instead of a 4-cyl to make it a bit easier on yourself. The newer Jeep 6-cyl is a V6, might be easier to fit, but you'll have all the management to get set up.

Yeah, it won't be cheap. But, could be fun. Good luck!

[leafsprung]

At least use a good drivetrain if you are going to do a swap. The stock wrangler drivetrain isnt so great. A toyota mini truck drivetrain, landcruiser BJ60, chevy pickup, scout, and many others would be higher on my list.

[Alaska Mike]

I'm in the process of installing a '92 Jeep MPFI 2.5L engine, SM465 transmission, and Spicer 18 transfercase in my Rover pile. My Rover could have hardly been called a '73 Series III 88 SW, because so much of it was trashed or missing. Basically it was a parts rig that I dragged off the mountain and started pouring money into. Basically all I got was a few body panels, a couple axles, a bunch of weird hardware, and a drain on my finances. Right now I'm building up on a galvanized frane, bolt by bolt. It isn't cheap, especially quick, or "correct" in any way, but it suits my purposes. I would have never contemplated it if my Rover was in better shape to start with.

I'm not the first to consider the Jeep 2.5L. You might look into the Land Mutt (http://www.quietcanyon.com/STRlandmutt.htm) as another example, where the entire engine/drivetrain from a Cherokee was transplanted. Because of the crossmember behind the transfercase, he mounted the assembly fairly low in the chassis. His engine is also a carbed version. Nice guy.

The Wrangler/Cherokee transfercase has a driver's side drop and centered output, so you're looking at axle swaps while you're there.

The MPFI versions add a bunch of sensors and wiring, so make sure your donor vehicle includes all of it. I chose a OBDI version to cut down on some of it, but there's still quite a bit to deal with. The TBI version would remove even more complexity, but is not as capable (still better than the carbed version, though. Fuel pumps and engine management can be another nightmare. You essentially are re-engineering the vehicle, which is at times rewarding and frustrating to varying ratios.

My thread over at ExPo is mainly me waffling about various build choices, since my resources (time and money) are limited these days. The engine/transmission/transfercase rebuilds and adapting depleted my funds pretty quick. That's the way with any major conversion, except those of Mercedesrover, who is a Rover modifying machine. Now that I'm neck deep, I'm going to plow ahead and finish the project as my schedule allows. I'm in no hurry, and there are countless other decisions and obstacles ahead of me.

[greenmeanie]

I'm in no hurry, and there are countless other decisions and obstacles ahead of me.

This should be the mantra of every major conversion.

If you choose the conversion path then before you start set a budget and write down a specification of what the vehicle should do for you and how you aim to achieve that. Once you are done go back and reread this document as it will provide a good laugh.

[zknife]

Man, thanks a lot for the info everyone I really appreciate it. I definitely have a lot to learn, I will go rumage around in the Hybrid forum too. I still have a couple of question on my mind if you have the time to help...

I guess I had convinced myself that a rebuilt stock rover would not have enough power for towing a small trailer and higher speed cross country traveling. What does everyone think about this? Maybe I am trying to task this Rover with something it was just not meant to do and I should just get used to a max speed of 55mph.

It seems to me that if I put in a newer engine with more power I will also need to replace the trans and drivetrain to handle the increased power. I guess I need to find more info on other engines that are typically put into rovers like mine.

Lastly, this Rover basically had all of the original parts still attached. As I said everything seems to be either seized up, dry rotted, or rusted on. I have definitely contemplated a classic restoration but I felt that having everything rebuilt and getting all new hoses, brackets, wires, etc.. would be more expensive than getting a donor vehicle where most of those parts would be present and could be re-used. I guess I need more info on what a typical land rover restoration costs.

Can a rover trans and differentials be rebuilt by a novice or would I need to have this done by a professional? I have the Haynes restoration books and I must confess it looks pretty daunting. I am assuming I would need to send the engine off to be rebuilt.

Thanks again for all you help everyone!!:thumb-up:

[mechman]

Hey Z, nice find!

Usually the trans in a Rover doesn't seize from sitting. Pull it first and see if it spins. Usually a fluid change and a couple seals are all they need, unless it was grenaded in the past. Same goes for the rears - pull the brakes and see if the axles spin before you plan on a full replacement.

Usually the engines seize through the rings - try pulling the plugs and dropping some Croil down into the cylinders and overfilling the block with used motor oil (more acidic than fresh oil, good for freeing up stuck bearings). After it sits awhile, try turning it over with a big-a$$ wrench on the crank pulley. You want leverage there, but don't snap off the bolt. If it finally turns after a few tries, you can probably rebuild it yourself, otherwise consider it a core.

Restoring a Land Rover can seem expensive. If you go for a full checkbook restoration, you could drop $25k into it without blinking. If you are mechanically inclined and plan on doing it yourself (and a Series IIA Rover is pretty dead simple to rebuild), count closer to $10k-15k. Keeping in mind that a new Ford Explorer runs around $27k, restoring your Landie to new condition becomes a much more reasonable undertaking. Which would YOU rather drive? ;)

I like to think of a restoration as buying a car on layaway. I pay for the parts as I can afford them, and by the time I'm done I've usually paid as much as I would have if I had bought a comparable three-year-old used car, factoring in paying myself a little something for my time. Only thing is, I don't get to drive it until it's paid off. :)

As for conversions, remember that a non-stock truck is worth less than a restored truck in the end. Why dump $15k into something that will only be worth $7k in the end, and may not be salable at all? I had a Jeep Wrangler with the MFI 2.5L, and I can't say I recommend the engine. In my experience it's a bit lightly built and prone to bearing issues, and not all that easy to find in a junkyard. The 4.0L 6 is much sturdier and more common. Avoid the older 3.9's though, they're getting tough to find in yards too. You might be better served looking into a Chevy 350 swap. That was popular for a while.

I've found that driving a Series at higher speeds than it was designed for can actually be quite scary. They don't handle speeds over 70mph without becoming too unstable, IMO. Rovers were built to go anywhere, but not at 90mph. I like the Rover 2.25 and gearbox, because they seem to stand up much better to abuse than just about any other motor of it's size and age. Yes, it's a slow lump (even with a Turner HP motor, and they're pretty nice IMO), but that's part of the charm of the truck. A stock Series Rover in good shape with a 2.25 can usually handle a Sankey trailer - how much do you want to tow with it?

Mech

*edit: If you want to hammer your Rover down the highway, especially a cross-country run, go with a head built for unleaded. You want harder valves, guides and seats than stock in there, they'll be the parts that suffer the most.

[Alaska Mike]

If you're dead set on upgrading the engine/drivetrain, do a little research. I personally like the 2.5L, if it's maintained and used as intended. However, there are other options. The GM 4.3L is an interesting powerplant with plenty of factory drivetrain options and a lot of conversion support in the Jeep world (Novak, Advance Adapters...). A Mercedes diesel is another option, and MercedesRover can help you out greatly in this regard. There are a few guys that make adapters for the Rover t-case to a solid American truck transmission, and it isn't a bad idea to upgrade while you're there. TeriAnn's site has a ton of information that you will find invaluable when researching the project.

The Robert Davis GM 2.5L (Iron Duke) conversion is pretty cool as well, and as close to a drop-in as you can get. The initial cost of the conversion is pretty high, but in the end you get a completely rebuilt engine that can safely travel highway speeds. Remember, even the most straightforward swap can nickle and dime you to death. Having the swap done in kit form with instructions is pretty nice, and bolt-in beats fabrication if it's done well- you can always undo it and return to stock.

Brakes are certainly an area that will need to be upgraded with a much more powerful engine and possible towing, and Rover brake upgrades aren't exactly cheap. Axle swaps are a possibility, but that crossmember limits your options without frame modifications. There are early CJ offset Dana 44s that would probably do the trick with a little work. A narrow track Dana 30 with disc brakes would be a nice match. I certainly weighed these options when considering engine swaps.

All of this said, if the vehicle has just sat and has not been abused, I would try to revive it as it sits before you contemplate major swaps. Look at what Mercedesrover and I started with- not exactly show-winning examples of the marque.

[zknife]

All of this said, if the vehicle has just sat and has not been abused, I would try to revive it as it sits before you contemplate major swaps. Look at what Mercedesrover and I started with- not exactly show-winning examples of the marque.

Well I think I spent about 5 hours today on the interent researching this and now I kinda feel like I have solid gold sitting in my garage. Mike said it best above and after reading and seeing what a lot of you have started out with I feel like I would be an idiot not to restore this thing to original. I have all the original parts and just very minor surface rust that can be removed with a good pressure wash. I am hoping now that we can get it running like Mechman said without any major rebuilds.

Thank you so much everybody you have helped a lot especially Alaska Mike and Mechman:thumb-up:

I am really excited now!!!!!!!!!

[Terrys]

I look at your situation from two perspectives.
The first is you now have a truck that is part of your chilhood, probably gifted to you and was a family members in it's more lively days. That may not weigh that much to you now but, trust me, it will eventually.

If you're not in a financial position to do right by the truck, set it aside, preserved, of coarse, for a day, probably not all that far away, when you can do it justice.

Whether you ever plan on parting company, treat it as though it's got value, and with time, will appreciate. All by itself, it will. However, doing anything inappropriate, and it won't, and in fact will go down in value fast, more so if it isn't even done properly.

I've been suffering through the ins and outs of these since I bought my first one in 1972, and while I may have taken a shortcut or two in the past, prefer to keep to the book as often as possible. The engines are just one big lump, and are easily rebuilt. We're not talking Asian automotive tolerance, we're talking '40s vintage agricultural technology. A proper set of tools (which don't include vise grips and adjustable wrenches) a few cans of PB Blaster, Kroil, or other good penetrants, and patience, are about all you need to have to start out.
I could give you more in the way of a philosophy lesson towards approaching the rebirth of the truck, but won't. Just set aside the desire for instant gratification, and you'll do the right thing.

[mechman]

You should look at pulling the motor apart before throwing it on the road, IMO. When an engine sits that long, the crank journals tend to develop a fine layer of corrosion, causing them to wear out the bearings with exceptional speed. The cylinder bores also tend to have rust in them above the pistons (especially the cylinders that sat with a valve open) and could stand a re-hone and re-ringing at a minimum. Plus you'll want to clean out the pan and drop in a new oil pump and head gasket. You'll also want to replace the rear main seal, clutch and clutch hydraulics as well. The pan has to come off for the rear main seal. The carb and fuel pump will most definitely need rebuilding or replacement, too.

It could be a very cheap rebuild, all things considered, if you can get it freed up. As for the rest, well, clean, paint, reseal and lube.

And yes, it's good to be excited! It sounds like you have a gem in the rough there.

Mech

[scott]

whoa on the conversion! and not cuz i'm a purist. if you got an ex-mod then you probably don't have freewheeling front hubs. you everything is lock up could be a simple thing. get into nuetral, remove a prop shaft or two. try and find out what specifically stuck

[zknife]

Thanks again everyone for your help. I am definitely going to do a classic restoration. Over the next week or two I am going to take stock of my rover and try to see the depth of restoration that the engine, trans etc.. will need. Then I will start a new thread (hopefuly with pictures) becasue I am sure I will have tons of questions that could also help others.

[Alaska Mike]

Before restoration, just go for refurbishment. Make it safe for the road (as much as a Series Rover can be) and take care of the pressing maintenance issues. Then drive the thing and develop an attachment before you spend any real money. The last thing the world needs is another half-completed Rover project.

Actually, the last thing my garage needs is another half-completed Rover project. Your mileage may vary.

[mechman]

I'm with Alaska Mike on this. You'll have enough on your plate just getting it ready for the road.

Driving a Series Rover is something of an endurance test for the uninitiated. You should really see if it suits you before you drop big bucks into it. You may find that you love looking at it, but dread driving it. I've seen it happen before...

Maybe someone local to you has a Series Rover that you can test drive first?

Mech

[CLIFF]

Lets see some pics. Cant wait to see it.:popcorn: :thumb-up:

[Dashface]

You may find that you love looking at it, but dread driving it. I've seen it happen before...


Hmm, sounds familiar :cool: I've loved my Rover since I was 12 and it belonged to a family friend, but... I think I've been spoiled by newer British tech (read: my B :thumb-up:)

To the original poster, I have to say - do what you have to do to get it on the road, but don't put in on a Jeep drivetrain. You're going to have enough hell just getting it going as is - a swap will take forever and be very expensive and annoying if you do it yourself, and probably just as bad to get someone else to do it :D

And post pics :)