Need an estimate for engine work . . .

[grant]

I have a 2.25 gas engine that I have pulled and took to a machine shop. I think I may be heading for a disagreement on the bill with the machine shop, so I won't poison the well with what I have learned he may be planning to charge. I won't go into the long details of what our discussions have been to this point. Rather, I wanted your opinions on what would be typical charges for the following work:

Replace the freeze plugs (no damage to the block, the plugs were just frozen in place and rotted).
Regasket the engine (gasket set I provided).
Install hardened valve seats for unleaded gas.

The rest of the engine was in such good shape that the guy didn't even recommend new rings or bearings. This guy is known to do good work and is quite experienced working on old british cars. So, what would you all expect to be a reasonable range of charges for the above work? Thanks,

[greenmeanie]

It's a bit like asking how long's a bit of string I'm afraid. Most of the money is in time. How much time has he spent stripping the engine and inspecting parts to determine that the bottom end is good? What kind of shop is he running - a back street generic automotive place or a British Car specialist with a high end shop in a nice location?

If you want to keep cost down then you strip the engine, you put in the freeze plugs and you do the gaskets and leave him the one thing that needs high dollar specialist equipment to do. If you want to pay a lot then turn up, deliver a complete engine, muck and all and tell him you think it needs work and leave him to do everything. You get the idea.

For reference I was quoted $700 for the following work on a Chevy 292 6 pot:
- Bore cylinders from .040 to .060 and hone to correct clearances.
- Install new cam bearings and line bore to size.
- Line bore the main journals.
- Inspect crank journal sizes and grind to suit. (7 mains and 6 rod journals)
- Face off the flywheel.
- Press out pins for old pistons and replace with new lpg pistons.
- Recondition the rods
- Balance the rotating assembly.
- The usual checking the deck for squareness, magnaflux etc.

Now with this I am throwing the shop a bone and ordering a bunch of the new parts through them and I also stripped the engine myself and had it acid dipped so it was already clean and ready to go. I also did my research and knew exactly what I wanted done.

IIRC I got quoted about $50 for each hardened seat install plus a bit more if I wanted the 3 angle grind.

Did you not get a quote before starting?

[leafsprung]

-for brass plugs throughout $35 plus labor probably 1-1.5 hrs depending on how easy the old ones come out.
-hard seats cost between 5 and 10 bucks ea, installation probably 1-2 hrs expect them to wash and mag the head which will add some cost.
-which gaskets? head,sump front cover, rocker cover, pan? Or all ancillaries and manifolds? disassembling the engine, scraping and cleaning all the surfaces, replacing the gaskets might take as much as 4 hours maybe more if they are doing every gasket in the motor. If the block was disassembled they would probably just hot tank it and it would take much less time. and cost less.

Id expect between 400-600 to have to pay a shop to do that. Most of it is busy work with the exception of installing the seats. Have the neighbor kids do it for a few bucks an hour if you dont want to get your hands dirty.

[grant]

No dipping, no magnafluxing, nothing done to the block other than freeze plugs and some gaskets. I didn't give him any of the manifolds so he couldn't have installed those gaskets. He was very reasonable and some other work he did not a fiat I have as well, but I think we're really going to butt heads on this.

[1961 109 WAGON]

and if he snaps off bolts , then has to charge to re-tap holes and remove bolts that are broke off.

[leafsprung]

so . . .how much was he wanting to charge you?

[mechman]

I'd be close to leafsprung on the 400-600 price, but that would be for all of the work EXCEPT the valve seats (disassembly, scraping gaskets, checking the bearings and rings, basically going over the short block and installing new supplied gaskets). For the head work alone I'd insist on tanking and fluxing it (maybe even decking it) BEFORE I tore into the seats. My charge would probably be in the $500-700 range for that alone, if I supplied the seats.

Generally I send heads out, as my rebuilder has the specialty tools to do it right - that's all he does, all day, every day. I'd expect my shop to be charged $500-700 for that job, the bill would be higher for my customer.

Last year I had a head for a Pontiac cleaned, fluxed, lightly skimmed and checked (valves pulled and inspected - it had been overheated and had a blown gasket). My cost - $345. And that was more than fair.

Mech

[grant]

I'll let you know tommorrow how much and for exactly what work after I go there myself. Right now, I'm going on what he told a relative of mine that was there on another item, knowing that we are related. I've got a bad, bad feeling though that I could buy a new engine or have one completely rebuilt for the amount relayed to me so far. Thanks for the replies.

[I Leak Oil]

Didn't you get an estimate in writing before you gave him the work?
Jason T.

[SafeAirOne]

Didn't you get an estimate in writing before you gave him the work?

I was kind of wondering the same thing. Of course you never know what will be found when the machine shop starts inspecting the parts, but the shops I've used have always told me before starting work that will go beyond the estimate they provided.

Our host sells rebuild 8:1 heads for $776 + $100 core and... I can't locate the price for the whole engine--It keeps coming up with the head page...

[leafsprung]

For the head work alone I'd insist on tanking and fluxing it (maybe even decking it) BEFORE I tore into the seats. My charge would probably be in the $500-700 range for that alone, if I supplied the seats.

If most major parts vendors are making a good margin on heads which are completely rebuilt (valves, seats, and guides plus cleaning decking, maging etc) and selling them for between 600-800 including the head itself, then 500-700 for just installing seats would be well above average. Your charge of 345 for cleaning, maging, skimming and inspecting a single head is very high. I would expect to pay no more than 100 for that work at a reputable shop.

[jac04]

... I can't locate the price for the whole engine--It keeps coming up with the head page...
RNE569 Long Block = $4720
RNE568 Rebuilt Engine - Complete = $5500

[mechman]

If most major parts vendors are making a good margin on heads which are completely rebuilt (valves, seats, and guides plus cleaning decking, maging etc) and selling them for between 600-800 including the head itself, then 500-700 for just installing seats would be well above average. Your charge of 345 for cleaning, maging, skimming and inspecting a single head is very high. I would expect to pay no more than 100 for that work at a reputable shop.


Well, given that seats run around $10 each (don't forget shipping!), that's $80 just in those parts, not including the added cost if it needs any guides, valves or springs replaced. At an average of $90-120/hr labor, you can do the math. It would cost me around $100 to do the work by myself, for myself, with no billable labor. If you know someone willing to do the entire job for $100 and do it well, please give me their number! They're working for peanuts. But beware - as the old saying goes, if you pay peanuts, you only hire monkeys.

It is almost always cheaper to buy a reconditioned head than to have yours reconditioned. Remember that those rebuilders are doing them in bulk, thus getting a bulk discount on the parts and not having to change the setup on their machines from head to head. Setup time on a mill is billable time.

That Pontiac head was tanked, fluxed, skimmed, and completely disassembled for inspection. I think one of the valves had to be relapped, but the head had only minor damage, mostly pitting from the coolant leaks. In this area, the $345 charge was lower than average for that work. My rebuilder's rate is $65/hr, very reasonable for a specialist.

Mech

[sven]

FWIW, I have a local guy charge me $140 labor to cut and install new seats, new valves, and plane the head. I supplied all the parts and brought the head to him. The dude mostly works on tractors and american muscle!

[leafsprung]

Mech,
I'm sorry but in my experience you are overpaying. I would be happy to send you all the rebuilt heads you want for 650 and with no core charge. Seats, guides, exhaust valves, cleaned magged, and decked if needed. I will also guarantee them. If you want hardened valve seats I can supply them at 6 bucks ea in quantities of a dozen (and I would be making a solid margin on all of these).

[Donnie]

Well, given that seats run around $10 each (don't forget shipping!), that's $80 just in those parts, not including the added cost if it needs any guides, valves or springs replaced. At an average of $90-120/hr labor, you can do the math. It would cost me around $100 to do the work by myself, for myself, with no billable labor. If you know someone willing to do the entire job for $100 and do it well, please give me their number! They're working for peanuts. But beware - as the old saying goes, if you pay peanuts, you only hire monkeys.

It is almost always cheaper to buy a reconditioned head than to have yours reconditioned. Remember that those rebuilders are doing them in bulk, thus getting a bulk discount on the parts and not having to change the setup on their machines from head to head. Setup time on a mill is billable time.

That Pontiac head was tanked, fluxed, skimmed, and completely disassembled for inspection. I think one of the valves had to be relapped, but the head had only minor damage, mostly pitting from the coolant leaks. In this area, the $345 charge was lower than average for that work. My rebuilder's rate is $65/hr, very reasonable for a specialist.

Mech
If U R paying $10 per seat U are getting hosed. They are available,,good quality, for much less.............also, bronze thin wall guide liners work well and are inexpensive.

[grant]

Thanks for the many enlightening responses so far. Unfortunately, I was not able to get by the shop today as I couldn't get back in town before they closed. I plan on trying to stop by tommorrow to get all the information.

I did not get a quote in writing. Obviously, my mistake, but we had talked about it and we discussed a range but he said (truthfully I believe) he could not give an exact price until he knew exactly what would be needed on the engine. I knew he had a very busy shop and I was in no hurry when I took it there in the beginning of the summer because I knew I wouldn't begin to have any time to reinstall it until this winter, so I certainly didn't put any rush on it. Anyway, when I called and stopped by a few times (usually every 3-4 weeks) he showed me the engine block and told me it was actually in very good shape and he didn't even recommend new bearings, pistons or rings. He sent the head out but he never indicated there was any problem with that at all either. In short, he has never given any indication that there were any unforeseen issues with the head or block. Now, I delivered the engine to him with no anillaries but completely intact. Based on my discussions with him and with previous machine shops before I settled on him, I was anticipating paying roughly somewhere between $400-700 for all the work. I was told by my relative who saw the engine and the bill that the total charge is a little over $1,500 with about $500 of that for just the head work. If that's the case, I just don't think that is within the realm of reasonableness for the work done. By the way, his hourly shop rate is $60. Even with the high end estimates discussed in this thread, it doesn't sound like the total charge shouldn't have exceeded $1000.

You know, shops are going out of business all the time and yet they still seem baffled why people won't just rebuild their high-mileage engines on their everyday cars instead of buying a newer vehicle. Merry #$@&!-ing Christmas to me!

I'll keep you all updated. Thanks.

[SafeAirOne]

No disrespect to your relatives, but I might just wait to find out what the bill is from the actual shop before I start worrying.

[meatblanket]

FYI, many states have a motor vehicle repair act that requires that a mechanic provide an estimate and obtain authorization before performing the work.

This protects the mechanic and the consumer, and was designed to eliminate the exact position that you find yourself in-- wondering how much you might owe.

In my state, and probably yours as well, you are not required to pay any more than the dollar amount that you authorized.

I'm not sure how that would apply in a case where you brought them an engine instead of a car, however......

[gambrinus]

$1500??

Tell the shop to enjoy their freshly rebuilt engine.

Go get another lump.

Call a different machine shop

Get quote in writing...

lesson learned.


RW

[Tim Smith]

$1500??

Tell the shop to enjoy their freshly rebuilt engine.

Go get another lump.

Call a different machine shop

Get quote in writing...

lesson learned.


RWBut now he's in a predicament. Where is he going to find another motor (all fixed up mind you) for $1500?

Grant, if you do go that route and the shop is close to me, let me know and I'll pick up the motor for $1500. :p

[SafeAirOne]

Grant, you must have had time to go by the shop by now...the impression I got by your last post is that you only had preliminary information. What did you find out in the end?