Welding Birmabright

[JackIIA]

I'm getting way ahead of myself given I'm still working on the innards of my truck, but the post about owners having a hard time finding body panels got me thinking.

Does anyone have experience welding birmabright? I'm not a novice welder, but by no means an expert either. I've worked only with steel (e.g. rebuilding my bulkhead), no aluminum. I have a MIG (Lincoln SP-175 plus) and I've got the aluminum welding kit also.

Two questions then:

Is there significant difficulty with pooling? E.g., does birmabright fade right away into a weld pool (ruining the panel). What are the warning signs?

Can I use any kind of aluminum sheets (of similiar gauge) when welding rover panels, or would a 'pure' aluminum panel get into the same problems you'd experience welding steel and aluminum together.

If it's insanely difficult, I'll consider sourcing the panels. Thanks.

[KingSlug]

You might want to ask Ike Goss of Pangolin 4x4. He does some good work and posted it over on Guns and Rovers.

http://gunsandrovers.yuku.com/topic/458

Jared

[4flattires]

Wow....nice work

Those shots are simply inspiring. I can stick and gas weld, but have only attempted alu with alu rod and gas with NOT the same results.

Guess I need to expand my tool selection to accomodate alu.



Jeff

[KingSlug]

I can gas weld AL but its hard to gauge temps and avoid burn through unless you know what you are doing. It requires a special mix of gas and special lenses for your hood. And I had to have someone show me how repeatedly, did I mention the numerous burn throughs?

http://www.tinmantech.com/html/faq__gas_welding_birmabright.php

http://tinmantech.chainreactionweb.com/html/aluminum_gas_welding_system.php?cart=d24610b69956edc2e8e4d9e1f46a92d5

Its alot easier to do with MIG, from what I hear.

Jared

[thixon]

First off, I'm far from a pro so take what I say here with a grain of salt.

King Slug is right about the gas. I've tried to learn, and done okay but not great. Certainly not well enough to be happy with the results. The frustrating part is that the guy who has tried to teach me makes it look easy.

I also have a mig and a tig. I've done some work on rover panels with both. The only advice I'll give you is to make sure the work peice is clean as a whistle. Any oxidation or dirt will make for some crappy results. Alum oxide melts at a much higher temp than alum. On thin sheet, you'll blow holes like theres not tomorrow if you don't clean the day lights out of it.

With alum, the welding pool doesnt glow as it does with steel. The pool appears shiny (looks a bit like mercury). Its much eaiser to blow through, or have the pool get heavy and drop through if you're travel speed isnt correct. It takes a lot more finese than steel. Prepare to get furstrated. Its not impossible, its just different than welding steel. Oh yeah, clean clean clean.

The tin man links that Kingslug posted are great. That guy is an artist!

Good luck!

[Eric W S]

Yes. It will take you a long time to find a local welder profeicient in 5000 series AL (Birm is 5251). They exist. Look for Aircraft welders.

I found a welder in Chicago that was more than happy to weld panels for me at reasonable prices. He asked me how think the AL was. When I told him he said that it will be the thickest 5000 he has welded to date. Did fine work as well. Seamless. Old wings straight and now in storage as back ups.

Welding is something I can not do nor will be able to do as proficient as I can pay for so I have no problem paying for it.

[JackIIA]

KingSlug - Great link. Ike really is a master craftsman by the look of his work. Didn't know about a change in lenses, thanks.

thixon - got it. didn't know about the mercury look. I knew it didn't glow much, but that's news to me on the shine. thanks.

eric - i can only speak for mig welding, tig and torch are not forgiving. but you could definitely handle mig, as long as you're not counting on the welds for structural purposes.

thanks all. i will probably source scrap birmabright to practice on before touching the wings.

[JackIIA]

Incidentially, for those interested in mig welding, here is a fantastic site. The guy is very, very good. He has restored renaults (which hold no interest for me), but also Austin-Martins, and at least 1 rover (but that appeared to be a quick job with little attention to true restoration). Most of his project cars can be found somewhere on the site.

Seems to me that he can pretty much weld anything, including cast iron (and has done alot of steel work with MIGs, including structural components).

He is also a automotive engineer and independent consultant, so his knowledge is abit beyond me. If you're ever looking for ideas on building welding jigs, or welding european unibody stuff, this is a good resource. Also includes videos of do's and dont's.

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/

[Eric W S]

.

thanks all. i will probably source scrap birmabright to practice on before touching the wings.

Jack,

Best I can tell is that in the US you need to ask for 5000 series AL. I think Birmabright is known as 5251 in the States and you should be able to source some locally.

No welder. I want one but it's not going to happen for a long time.

[thixon]

I've been using 4043 filler rods on body panels for a while now, with no real issues. Long term, I can't say what may occur.

I've also cut old panels with air nibblers and used the ribbon from the cut for filler material.

I got ahold of a whole roll aluminum wire for my mig. Not sure what it is, but I'll try it tonight just for laughs on an old panel and report in soon with the results.

[mechman]

I must say, I checked out Ike's web page, and I'm TOTALLY impressed with his welding skills. I'm a mediocre welder at best (I try to save my welding for chassis - they're certainly strong enough, but not the prettiest), and just the idea of my trying to weld Birmabright makes me cringe. I don't know anyone around here who would try tackling Landie aluminum panels, much less do such a nice job of it.

Mech

[graniterover]

thanks all. i will probably source scrap birmabright to practice on before touching the wings.

I have some in southern NH if you want to take a drive up.

Mark

[JackIIA]

Thanks Mark. I'll probably hold off at the moment, but will keep it in mind. I will practice on straight aluminum the more I think about it. Seems wrong to practice on birmabright, event if it is scrap!

[thixon]

Okay,

Over the weekend I set up my MIG for aluminum. As I said before, I had a roll of alum wire given to me. It turned out to be 4043 .035.

I took some photos, but I can't post them until tonight.

Overall, the experience was'nt that bad. I started on some scrap alum I scavenged from my work place. If you read, "hot and fast" seems to be what is recommended. I used the recommended wire speed and temp settings for my welder, and went at it. All I can say, is that you really need to watch your travel speed. Quick and consistent is the name of the game. I'd say, my travel speed was twice as fast as that of steel (WA guess). I experimented with slower and faster speeds, and various voltage settings (my welder has a voltage setting, rather than an amperage setting). I also varied the wire speed. Unless I got either temp, wire speed, or both really out of whack, neither effected the weld as much as travel speed. Slow down, and you start blowing through. Speed up, and the weld gets better. I was actually able to increase the wire speed, and travel speed such that I got a consistent bead on a pass that was so fast I could'nt pay attention to the pool. It was a total surprise at the end of the weld. The penetration probably was'nt great, but I was using thin sheet anyway so who cares.

After playing around with wire speed and temp, and getting it set up in my percieved comfort zone, I layed a few welds on an old birma floor pan that I won't be using for my truck. The only vaiable in the beads I layed was travel speed. While all were consistent beads, some look better than others. Sadly, none look great. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable trying this on a panel or not. I have yet to try butt welding, and plan to do so in a day or so when I get time to play. I'll post the pics tonight.

Hope this helps anyone out there, who like me sucks at welding but is thinking of trying on aluminum.

[thixon]

Okay,

Here are two pics. The one with the five beads is obviously from the mig. Starting from the left, I varied the travel speed of the torch faster and faster. The most comfortable, and best "sounding" bead was the fourth from the left. The first is just a little faster than I would weld steel. As you can see, it dropped through in a couple of spots. What you don't see is the other side of the panel. Its sagging nearly the whole run.

For comparisons sake, here are two beads run with my TIG. Again, I was experimenting with travel speed. The one on the left here was clearly done slower than the one on the right. Also notice that the one on the right sank a bit at the beginning. I held the torch just a hair too long waiting for a pool to form.

Not sure how to approach the MIG with birma. The only thing I'll say for sure is that you have to be patient. Do small portions at a time, and let the work cool down. Otherwise, it seems the panel will warp very quickly.

Hope this helped.