Rivets.

[TedW]

I plan to replace some galvanized capping and would like to use the correct domed rivets where previously installed. Question: How are they installed? What special tools are needed? Am I nuts not to just use pop rivets all-around? I await sage advice from the group.

[Bertha]

They are definitely worth putting on for that oem look, however it will require some investment on your part. You will need an air chisel tool with the proper domed head attachment(actually called a button head rivet), a buck(metal block behind it) and a way to regulate the air pressurre so you dont do a number on your aluminum/paint. I have a ton of the proper rivets to do the job(our hosts sell them as well), however you will need to buy the tools yourself. If you lived closer, you could have come over for a day and work on it at my place.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Ingersoll-Rand-Air-Hammer-Chisel-Model-772-Extras-NIB_W0QQitemZ380092474967QQihZ025QQcategoryZ31482Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and
http://www.aircraft-tool.com/
for the tool below

[thixon]

Bertha is dead on. I'm only chiming in to agree, and state again that you need to be careful. Practice a few on some test pieces. If the air hammer gets away from you, you can mess up your paint/panel.

Good luck!

[sailtech]

Roverhaul.com recommends:

http://www.bigflatsrivet.com/

[BGGB]

i used bigflatrivets. they have everything you need besides a air chisle. you will need to get the rivets and the bucking bar to hold onto the head... just air chisel the back and your good. its easiest to do with two people. Good Luck

[crankin]

I am currently doing mine right now. Big Flats is who I went with and he is more then helpful.

The only advice I can give is to make sure that you have the right length of rivet and to make sure that you keep the air hammer straight or the rivet will bend a little on you. I run my psi at around 35-40.

I have noticed that I can get about 4-5 mess ups on the same hole before the aluminum starts to really show signs from the stress.

Also, get you some ear muffs!

[TedW]

I have purchased the air hammer and the requisite items from Big Flats Rivets. I am now, as they say, ready to rumble, and will post pics of my handiwork when finished - should be interesting!

Ted

[SafeAirOne]

I have purchased the air hammer and the requisite items from Big Flats Rivets. I am now, as they say, ready to rumble, and will post pics of my handiwork when finished - should be interesting!

Ted

Just be careful if you purchased an air chisel and not a riveting hammer. The air chisel is not designed with riventing in mind and does not have the finesse of a riveting hammer. Probably won't matter too much if it gets away from you and dings the galv capping, but it'll do a job on aluminum.

[Bertha]

Just be careful if you purchased an air chisel and not a riveting hammer. The air chisel is not designed with riventing in mind and does not have the finesse of a riveting hammer. Probably won't matter to much if it gets away from you and dings the galv capping, but it'll do a job on aluminum.

Good point. The proper hammer will allow you to "throttle" the air, however it may be a steep investment for someone who is just using it for 1 project. As a side note and fwiw, the round head rivet that "big flats" sells and the one Mike used in Roverhaul is technically not the correct head that Rover used. Rover actually used a button head. If you order the correct rivet from our host and compare it to the "big flats" round head, you will see the difference, however I am sure most people couldn't tell the difference.

[109 Pretender]

Ted, everyone has given vgood advice above - just want to add that one of the changes Rover made from SIIA to SIII was to start using blind rivets in place of hand bucked rivets in many locations - of course Defenders did away w/all solid rivets I believe. Solid rivets come in 3 grades (dead soft, intermediate, and full hard). They are identified by a dimple system on the head. (No dimple for dead soft, 1 dimple for intermed. and the full hard are also sometimes called "freezer rivets" because they achieve full temper at room temp.) You want dead soft or intermediate. For blind rivets - only use closed bottom style like Rover uses. Best price I have ever found on these was from Pegasus Racing - identical to Rover factory rivet.
Like everyone said - practice on scrap first and get someone to back up the rivet on the hard to reach places. Air chisel WILL work OK if you adjust the air pressure down (better to have air rivet gun). Practice will make you get the feel for it - then it's easy.:thumb-up:

cheers!

[jp-]

No need for an air gun. I did all mine by hand, fairly simple really.

[TedW]

No need for an air gun. I did all mine by hand, fairly simple really.

jp: Any special technique or tools? I'd like to know how you do it.

Bertha: I see the difference between the genuine and the BFR rivets. Almost imperceptible.

109 Pretender: You are right about the sealed blind rivets. I've used them exclusively for years. Thanks for the tip on Pegasus Racing - awesome price!

SafeairOne: I purchased the air hammer referenced by Bertha earlier in the post - an Ingersoll Rand 772. I got a decent price relative to retail (I think). Now, lots of practice before I do the job!

Thanks to all for your advice. I promise to post pics.

[crankin]

So, I purchased some closed end rivets from Pegasus...How in the heck do you get the nail to break free?

I am using a regular hand rivet on these guys and they just won't break. I am also thinking about purchasing a pneumatic riveter...Anyone suggest one that works great?

[jp-]

Ted,

Sorry for the delay, been away from the boards for awhile. I bought a rivet tool that just fits over the head of the rivet and weighs several pounds. It might be for an air gun, but I just use it by hand. I hold pressure on the head of the rivet with the heavy tool (shaped for the rivet head) and I make sure that I have no gaps in the sheet metal that I am going to rivet (if there are gaps I use a small clamp to first draw the metal tight) then it's just a matter of hammering the back of the rivet to a nice mushroom shape. Very easy to do and I've had great results. I do believe that I am using the "dead soft" rivets though.

[Dav1550]

I make sure that I have no gaps in the sheet metal that I am going to rivet (if there are gaps I use a small clamp to first draw the metal tight)

# 10 stove bolts work well for mounting and holding the parts, cappings and such up in place. Then afterwards it's just a matter of following behind and replacing the bolts with a rivet....

[TedW]

So, I purchased some closed end rivets from Pegasus...How in the heck do you get the nail to break free?

I am using a regular hand rivet on these guys and they just won't break. I am also thinking about purchasing a pneumatic riveter...Anyone suggest one that works great?

Crankin: These sealed-end rivets are the best, but need more than a basic rivet gun to be installed. I went through a number of hardware store rivet guns before I learned my lesson. Even if you can squeeze the gun hard enough to snap the pin you will quickly wear out the gun - it won't hold the pin anymore.

My solution was to go to Grainger and buy a Marson "Big Daddy" rivet gun http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/pc-12408-765-marson-big-daddy-rivet-gun-39010.aspx. (link for reference only - Grainger is much less $$$). Wicked awesome.

I had a rivet (if not riveting) discussion with our illustrious host, Mark Letourney, just yesterday. I prefer the genuine rivets (a bag from RN costs somewhat more than the Pegasus rivets, but that's just me).

[TedW]

Ted,

Sorry for the delay, been away from the boards for awhile. I bought a rivet tool that just fits over the head of the rivet and weighs several pounds. It might be for an air gun, but I just use it by hand. I hold pressure on the head of the rivet with the heavy tool (shaped for the rivet head) and I make sure that I have no gaps in the sheet metal that I am going to rivet (if there are gaps I use a small clamp to first draw the metal tight) then it's just a matter of hammering the back of the rivet to a nice mushroom shape. Very easy to do and I've had great results. I do believe that I am using the "dead soft" rivets though.

jp: I tried your technique out and it works great, especially if you have a helper to hold the bucking bar and enough room to swing the hammer. Given that, I can do a better job than with the air hammer. Thanks!

I'm about halfway through my project - photos coming...........

[greenmeanie]

http://www.aircraft-tool.com/
for the tool below

Bertha,
I'm dragging this oneout the archives but I'm about to buy the set for applying the rivets desceribed in this post. If you don't mind, to save me trolling through the pages of different sets, what was the part number or decription of your set tool in the picture.

[SafeAirOne]

Bertha,
I'm dragging this oneout the archives but I'm about to buy the set for applying the rivets desceribed in this post. If you don't mind, to save me trolling through the pages of different sets, what was the part number or decription of your set tool in the picture.

Once you find out which one you need, you can get them slightly cheaper at the YardStore.com (http://www.yardstore.com/browse.cfm/2,284.html) if you are cost-sensitive. This is where I get all my aircraft-related tools. Of course the prices at ATS (http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/search_result.aspx?PageNo=1&PageSize=-1) aren't that much more.

[Bertha]

Bertha,
I'm dragging this oneout the archives but I'm about to buy the set for applying the rivets desceribed in this post. If you don't mind, to save me trolling through the pages of different sets, what was the part number or decription of your set tool in the picture.

Will post the info tonight when I get home.

[Bertha]

Once you find out which one you need, you can get them slightly cheaper at the YardStore.com (http://www.yardstore.com/browse.cfm/2,284.html) if you are cost-sensitive. This is where I get all my aircraft-related tools. Of course the prices at ATS (http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/search_result.aspx?PageNo=1&PageSize=-1) aren't that much more.

Mark
Good tip-that place is a lot cheaper on some items

[StX_Rovers]

Jay-Cee Rivets I have found to be very helpful. The website is :

http://www.rivetsinstock.com/

I have got the tool for the hammer rivets there, both for the 3/16 and the 1/4" rivets that the under tub braces use. They also stock the closed bottom pop rivets. I broke down and bought a heavy duty rivet tool after smacking my knuckle incredibly hard trying to use a standard pop rivet tool. The first time I used the heavy duty rivet tool I forgot about the money it cost. One thing that makes the closed bottom rivets so hard to pop is that the mandrel (the nail looking thingy) is made out of steel, not aluminum.

For the hammer rivets I use the correct sized rivet tool, a body dolly and a hammer. Remember, you use the hammer and tool on the rivet head, not the other way around. Counter intuitive but it works. It sounds as if some people are holding the head and hitting the other side. You need to hit the head and hold the back up tool. Hitting the head actually draws the whole mess together.

Like RN, Jay-Cee rivets understands and has no problem using the US Mail, important if you live in the Virgin Islands.

Jay-Cee rivets also has riv nuts but only in coarse thread. The only source I have found for the fine thread nuts is RN.

[TedW]

For the hammer rivets I use the correct sized rivet tool, a body dolly and a hammer. Remember, you use the hammer and tool on the rivet head, not the other way around. Counter intuitive but it works. It sounds as if some people are holding the head and hitting the other side. You need to hit the head and hold the back up tool. Hitting the head actually draws the whole mess together.

Really???? I'll say it's counterintuitive. I've been holding the head and hammering the back, with marginal success (I blame my rookie riveter status). However, I just spent an hour in the basement doing it as you described, and it does seem to work better. Thanks!

I will use this technique on the corner trim, but I will likely use jp's technique for the row of rivets on the long trim rails that go though the paintwork. I don't want to risk trashing my paint.

[SafeAirOne]

...I've been holding the head and hammering the back, with marginal success (I blame my rookie riveter status). However, I just spent an hour in the basement doing it as you described, and it does seem to work better.

You can get acceptable results hitting the bucktail end of the rivet using a backriveter, but it is not the prefered method to install rivets. The spring-loaded nylon collar holds the sheets being riveted together and keeps the end of the tool on the bucktail.

Tool: http://www.yardstore.com/browse.cfm/4,4456.html

[crankin]

OK, So, a few questions.

I bought the solid rivets that roverhaul used from bigflats...however, I am not sure if they are the correct lengths.

What are the correct lengths that I need?

Second, Bought the bucking bar from bigflats....and also got a Chicago rivet gun from ebay. When all this stuff comes in...does the bucking bar go on the head of the rivet (preformed round head side) or the other way around?

[SafeAirOne]

What are the correct lengths that I need?

The "grip length" of a rivet is the thickness of the material being riveted.

"D" is the diameter of the rivet being used.

Before being driven, solid rivets should protrude 1.5D (1 1/2 times the rivet diameter) PAST the materials being riveted. In other words, if you are using 1/8" diameter rivets, they should stick out 3/16" past the sheets being riveted.

So the formula to determine the correct rivet lingth is: Grip length + 1.5D


Second, Bought the bucking bar from bigflats....and also got a Chicago rivet gun from ebay. When all this stuff comes in...does the bucking bar go on the head of the rivet (preformed round head side) or the other way around?

The rivet set (driving tool) of the rivet gun should go against the factory head of the rivet. The bucking bar should be placed squarely against the non-head (bucktail) end of the rivet. You should keep driving the rivet until the bucktail squishes out to 1.5 times the rivet diameter and sticks out .5 the rivet diameter. See diagram, below:

[crankin]

Thanks! That clears things up.

[TedW]

The shank of the rivet gun should go against the factory head of the rivet. The bucking bar should be placed squarely against the non-head (bucktail) end of the rivet. You should keep driving the rivet until the bucktail squishes out to 1.5 times the rivet diameter and sticks out .5 the rivet diameter. See diagram, below:

Question: When I pull the trigger, should the domed head be held flush against the panel? If so, I would think that it would trash the panel.

Or...should there be some daylight between the domed head and the panel?

Or....something else?

[SafeAirOne]

Question: When I pull the trigger, should the domed head be held flush against the panel? If so, I would think that it would trash the panel.

Or...should there be some daylight between the domed head and the panel?


The bottom of the rivet head should be flat against the panel. The rivet set on the rivet gun should touch only the rivet and NOT the panel, because that'll really mess it up. See Attached diagram.

The top of the rivet doesn't really get worked. The rivet gun and rivet set just vibrate the rivet, The mass of the bucking bar vibrating against the rivet is what mushrooms the bucktail, cold working the metal and strengthening it at the same time.

[TedW]

The bottom of the rivet head should be flat against the panel. The rivet set on the rivet gun should touch only the rivet and NOT the panel, because that'll really mess it up. See Attached diagram.

The top of the rivet doesn't really get worked. The rivet gun and rivet set just vibrate the rivet, The mass of the bucking bar vibrating against the rivet is what mushrooms the bucktail, cold working the metal and strengthening it at the same time.

SafeAirOne: I guess I need to practice more, based upon your comments. I still don't quite get it - kind of thick today.

I assume there should be significant pressure on the bucking bar??

[SafeAirOne]

SafeAirOne: I guess I need to practice more, based upon your comments. I still don't quite get it - kind of thick today.

I assume there should be significant pressure on the bucking bar??

No--Let the mass of the bucking bar do the work--Just hold it against the rivet. The only thing you should have to do is to make sure the bucking bar is held flat/square against the rivet, although in non-aerospace applications where nobody is gonna see the bucktail, it probably won't matter much if the bucktail is a little lopsided. For a MUCH better explanation, see "How do solid rivets work? here (http://www.rvproject.com/rivets.html).

Just to clarify the prevous posts: A "rivet set" is not a set of rivets, but the metal rod that plugs into the rivet gun and has a dished end that fits atop the domed rivet head and drives the rivet. It is (mis)labeled "TOOL" in the drawings I made in the last few posts. A rivet set is sized according to the size and type of rivet being used. Using one that is too deep for the rivet (labeled "INCORRECT" in the previous post's diagram) will cold work the surrounding metal, fatiguing it and may also ding it up.

The "bucktail" is the end of the rivet that is flattened or squashed during rivet driving.

Out of curiosity, are you using an air hammer or a rivet gun? They are similar looking but very different in function. An air hammer probably won't have the correct stroke or frequency of blows. Good luck controlling an air hammer in a riveting operation. I suppose it can be done, but it'll look like you did it blindfolded because the air hammer will probably come off the rivet and ding up the surrounding area and rivet head.

I recommend 1) Practicing in some scrap metal first and 2) using 2 people do do this job; You can focus your attention on getting the bucking bar flat and then ding the heck out of the panel with the riveter or you can concentrate on controlling the riveter and end up with a lopsided bucktail.

[Bertha]

Bertha,
I'm dragging this oneout the archives but I'm about to buy the set for applying the rivets desceribed in this post. If you don't mind, to save me trolling through the pages of different sets, what was the part number or decription of your set tool in the picture.

sorry for the delay
part #sm10-4356
this is for a button head rivet(original land rover style), however you can also get the tool for round head rivets(the incorrect Big Flats style) and it will work just as well. This part number above pertains to a 4" long, but 5.5" works well too.

[TedW]

Out of curiosity, are you using an air hammer or a rivet gun? They are similar looking but very different in function. An air hammer probably won't have the correct stroke or frequency of blows. Good luck controlling an air hammer in a riveting operation. I suppose it can be done, but it'll look like you did it blindfolded because the air hammer will probably come off the rivet and ding up the surrounding area and rivet head.

I'm using an Ingersoll-Rand 772. I don't seem to have any trouble at all controlling it, so I'm assuming it's correct.

[SafeAirOne]

I'm using an Ingersoll-Rand 772. I don't seem to have any trouble at all controlling it, so I'm assuming it's correct.

The 772 is an Air Chisel (Hammer) which seems to be working out for you, just take care that the rivet set doesn't jump off the rivet head and ding everything up and you should be OK.

[TedW]

Out of curiosity, are you using an air hammer or a rivet gun? They are similar looking but very different in function. An air hammer probably won't have the correct stroke or frequency of blows.

SafeAirOne: Do you know what the correct stroke and frequency of blows is? If you do, I will look up the specs on the tool I have and compare.

[Bertha]

SafeAirOne: Do you know what the correct stroke and frequency of blows is? If you do, I will look up the specs on the tool I have and compare.

Just run it on low air pressure 30-40psi

[greenmeanie]

Thanks Bertha.

Now what makes a good bucking bar other than it must fit in the space you're trying to work in. As a matter of interst I am using OEM rivets as I found a bag of them in my spares stash. Of course, I'm using them in a non OEM place.

[TedW]

SafeAirOne: Do you know what the correct stroke and frequency of blows is? If you do, I will look up the specs on the tool I have and compare.

SafeAirOne: I read that my gun puts out 3000 blows/min and has a 2.25" stroke. When I look up rivet guns on the web their specs seem to be all over the place: from 3 1/6 stroke and 1740 B/M to 2.25" stroke and 2600 B/M (close to what I have), and that's just what I found from a quick look.

I do know that the tool I bought wasn't cheap, and the power to the tool varies by the amount of pressure on the trigger. I have absolutely no trouble keeping it under control while in use. In fact, you sort of caught me off-guard with your comments about it possibly getting away from me. It is actually quite stable, and I've been running it at 40 psi.

[Bertha]

Thanks Bertha.

Now what makes a good bucking bar other than it must fit in the space you're trying to work in. As a matter of interst I am using OEM rivets as I found a bag of them in my spares stash. Of course, I'm using them in a non OEM place.

I have several bucking bars, but have found my favorite to be a 1" thick by 3" long bar of steel. It is a homemade item from steel stock that I got somewhere along the way. Rover only rounded off the ends on the inside of the bodyside galv, the rest of the button head rivets used throughout the truck have a flat crushed back .

[crankin]

now I've got another question....

For riveting the galvanized trim to body....I would use 3/16 D. X 1/2? Or are our rivets not something that is a standard length?

[SafeAirOne]

I do know that the tool I bought wasn't cheap, and the power to the tool varies by the amount of pressure on the trigger. I have absolutely no trouble keeping it under control while in use. In fact, you sort of caught me off-guard with your comments about it possibly getting away from me. It is actually quite stable, and I've been running it at 40 psi.

Sounds as if you've got a quality tool. Some of the cheaper tools blast away as soon as the trigger is pulled. You should be fine.

[TedW]

Remember, you use the hammer and tool on the rivet head, not the other way around. Counter intuitive but it works. It sounds as if some people are holding the head and hitting the other side. You need to hit the head and hold the back up tool. Hitting the head actually draws the whole mess together.

So I spent an hour last night setting rivets the right (counterintuitive) way. Amazing! Much cleaner and faster than the other way. Thanks!!!!!!

StX_Rovers: Is St. Croix as hilly as St. John? I was there (StJ)in January and thought about the workout my 88 would get on that island. Great place for a disc brake upgrade.....

[crankin]

Well, I am a huge advocate on using a rivet gun now! I had attempted to place the rivets in with an air hammer but could not get them to work without damaging things.

I purchased a rivet gun off of ebay and it came in last night. In half the time it took to use the air hammer, I had prefect rounded heads. The hits seems more solid with a rivet gun and the forming seems more controlled.

I would suggest saving the $35 that you would spend on an air hammer an invest it on a rivet gun!! :thumb-up:

[SafeAirOne]

I purchased a rivet gun off of ebay and it came in last night. In half the time it took to use the air hammer, I had prefect rounded heads. The hits seems more solid with a rivet gun and the forming seems more controlled.

Glad to hear that it worked out for you. Any pics?

[crankin]

I'll get some pics for everyone. I ran about 15 through a piece of aluminum I had sitting around.

[TedW]

I'll get some pics for everyone. I ran about 15 through a piece of aluminum I had sitting around.

Which one did you get?

[crankin]

Rivet gun? I found a Chicago 4x rivet gun with about 15 tools for around $150.

I can honestly say that there is a HUGE difference in it!

[SafeAirOne]

I would suggest saving the $35 that you would spend on an air hammer an invest it on a rivet gun!! :thumb-up:

If you don't mind used tools, there are ones available for little more than the cost of air chisels. Check around. I've never ordered from here, but they have them:

http://www.toolsez.com/chpn4xrigun.html and

http://www.toolsez.com/riveters.html

[StX_Rovers]

So I spent an hour last night setting rivets the right (counterintuitive) way. Amazing! Much cleaner and faster than the other way. Thanks!!!!!!



StX_Rovers: Is St. Croix as hilly as St. John? I was there (StJ)in January and thought about the workout my 88 would get on that island. Great place for a disc brake upgrade.....

Glad to hear it worked out for you!

No, St. Croix is the flattest of the islands. There are still some pretty steep roads, but not like St. John or St. Thomas. Because of the difference in terrain, we have much more agriculture, which is a good thing. I much prefer farm land to resorts.

We are actually on a different plate, geologically speaking, or at least a different micro plate, which accounts for the very deep water between the islands; 5000-6000 feet deep by the time you are two miles offshore on the North shore of St. Croix.

[TedW]

This includes replacing all galv. trim (some new, some regalvanized) and also a new right quarter panel.

Please note the handy modification located below the light cage.

Thanks again to all who helped with advice and guidance!

Ted

[Bertha]

This includes replacing all galv. trim (some new, some regalvanized) and also a new right quarter panel.

Please note the handy modification located below the light cage.

Thanks again to all who helped with advice and guidance!

Ted

Really nice job-I really like the bottle opener "option", the Rover company forgot to put one on my truck.

[LaneRover]

Really nice job-I really like the bottle opener "option", the Rover company forgot to put one on my truck.

Actually they put a bottle opener on nearly all the metal dash trucks. There is a lip at the bottom of the dash on either side of the steering wheel and I believe on the passenger side as well which works quite well as a bottle opener!

[yank]

I tried the hand riveting method on my tub floor.

[thixon]

Yank,

From your photos, it looks like you did a repair to the rear section of the bed that bolts to the frame. Did you have a new piece of aluminum bent up?

[yank]

Ya, A friend of mine has a very nice brake. He was going to make me up a extra one, but he got real busy.