Looking into 2.5d or 200tdi in my series

[Clembs]

I'm looking to convert my '67 88" to a 2.5d or 200tdi and possibly do a bio or veggie tank. I love the truck and out like a little more power to drive daily and for wheeling.
Where is a good place to find used 2.5d and 200tdi engines? Also how much should i look into spending and with the 200tdi how hard is it to set up the electronics in a series.
I had also thought of the 300d Merc desiel (i know about the thread for the merc rover). Are the benifits worth the convertion?

[Eric W S]

There is a 200tdi on www.LRX.com (http://www.LRX.com). Search the parts for sale section. It is $2,800 for the engin pluse shipping. It is used. Prices can vary, but they are definetly pricey compared to a cummins or Merc.

There are a few conversions on the series2 club forum.

Terri Ann has some info on her site.

[enovey]

There is a 200tdi on www.LRX.com (http://www.LRX.com). Search the parts for sale section. It is $2,800 for the engin pluse shipping. It is used. Prices can vary, but they are definetly pricey compared to a cummins or Merc.

There are a few conversions on the series2 club forum.

Terri Ann has some info on her site.

Just wanted to add something as I have not seen this posted yet. There has been a few references to the Merc and other conversions as being alternates based on costs.
The Merc conversion is not a cheap route. The cheapest Merc conversion would be to use a 4 cylinder 240D engine, but it is not comparible to a 200tdi power wise. The 240D being the cheapest merc conversion because it can use the series gear box. The other idea is a 5 cylinder NA or Turbo Merc Diesel. This is much more expensive because you should use another gearbox if you plan on it lasting. By doing that you end up with many more custom parts and the costs climb.
I went down the merc 300D route for my own reasons and have made it work, but for anyone looking to keep a budget, the cheapest is probably using land rover parts.
In some cases It may be easier and less costly to spend the money on a High Output turner rebuild.
Good luck on whatever you choose.

[Eric W S]

I went down the merc 300D route for my own reasons and have made it work, but for anyone looking to keep a budget, the cheapest is probably using land rover parts.
In some cases It may be easier and less costly to spend the money on a High Output turner rebuild.
Good luck on whatever you choose.

Stock OEM components made for your model, then I would agree.

Modern LR diesels such as 200/300tdis do not exactly have consumer friendly pricing. Same for the gearboxes. It's surprising how much they cost.

[Clembs]

what improvements would you suggest for my '68 2.25 . I have new plugs, pertronix conversion with epoxy coil. I have recently adjusted the valves.

The only other option i have heard is the 2.5 cam and head (i think 8:1 compression).

are you just saying do a rebuild and get back to the 60hp it puts out?

[CMorris]

I did a Mercedes 240D conversion on my 1960 SII 88 using Jim Youngs/SeriesTrek adapter plate. The conversion wasn't terribly expensive, but it was quite a bit of work and problem solving.....plumbing, motor mounts, wiring, exhaust, clutch, etc. Definitely not for the shade-tree mechanic. On the upside, my truck now has slightly more power than a good running 2.25 liter with an 8:1 head, and gets 26mpg driving around town. I'm very happy with the results.

[SafeAirOne]

I'm looking to convert my '67 88" to a 2.5d or 200tdi and possibly do a bio or veggie tank.

I wouldn't look for in increase in power when swapping from a 2 1/4 petrol to a 2 1/2 diesel--The output horsepower of the 2.5 diesel is LESS than a 2.25 petrol. The 200Tdi, on the other hand....

[Bertha]

A 2.25 engine that has been rebuilt, bored out to .030 or .040 spec, blanced and flowed, with a performance 8:1 head and a solex carb, 2.5 cam and pushrods moves along the road pretty nicely. Add an overdrive and you can cruise down the highway and go on long trips with it. I have done the above to my motor and can say that driving a fresh motor set up like this and driving a tired old Land Rover motor are night and day. If you want to spend some money on your truck, my advice is to invest in what you have. At the end of the day if you want a motor powered by a Mercedes, then go buy a Mercedes. I never understood the diesel idea either-whatever additional mileage you think you are getting per gallon is quickly overshadowed by the extra dollar it costs to buy diesel fuel, so at the end of the day it is a wash. Keep it original and freshen it up is my advice.

[SafeAirOne]

I never understood the diesel idea either-whatever additional mileage you think you are getting per gallon is quickly overshadowed by the extra dollar it costs to buy diesel fuel, so at the end of the day it is a wash.
I think fuel costs are a poor reason to avoid using a diesel. Lack of horsepower per cubic inch compared to a similar petrol engine, perhaps, but not a lack of savings on fuel.

The reason I went with a 2.5 diesel is because of it's simplicity and incredible reliability. When I'm out in the desert, 100 miles away from civilization, I do not need ignition problems and all the other issues associated with a petrol engine. I can go a lot farther into the backcountry without as much of a requirement to refuel. If the alternator goes out on my rover, I can drive for hours and hours and hours on just the battery. Give it air and diesel and it'll go forever. I'll take the diesel for remote backcountry rovering over the petrol any day.

That's not to say the petrol is unsuitable for remote travel, it will do well also, albeit with more fuel required. The diesel just extends your range and takes a few common failure modes out of the equation.

[CMorris]

I never understood the diesel idea either-whatever additional mileage you think you are getting per gallon is quickly overshadowed by the extra dollar it costs to buy diesel fuel, so at the end of the day it is a wash.

Think range.......that's what started it (diesel) for me. My fully laden '67 109 with a nicely running 2.25ltr., front and rear onboard tanks and two cans on the roof rack barely made between to fuel locations in Labrador, that's when I started thinking diesel.

[Clembs]

my reasoning is not to save a couple dollars per tank. I want to have more torque for off road and plan to run Bio D in an alternate tank. The old 300D merc was (and still is) a bullet proof power plant and if it can fit in a series that is a great engine for bio or veggie oil. I do not plan on going out and buying a G wagon, nor am i a purest who feels that the soul of a rover is a 2.25p engine. As ignorant politicians soon will raise taxes on gas and the "carbon footprint" on cars above what we saw this time last year. I do not feel that series trucks will be grandfathered or overlooked with the carbon. I feel this purely for the fact that they bare the name Land Rover. I do however think they may give tax incentives (only wishful thinking) to Biodesiel converted autos and it would be cool to have a strong running or at least equal ,series that is vertually free to drive.

You all have been very helpful. i do not plan to just spend money on my rover for no reason. An ARB would be a better route for my needs at the moment, but a rebuild or swap does sound nice

[Eric W S]

my reasoning is not to save a couple dollars per tank. I want to have more torque for off road and plan to run Bio D in an alternate tank. The old 300D merc was (and still is) a bullet proof power plant and if it can fit in a series that is a great engine for bio or veggie oil. I do not plan on going out and buying a G wagon, nor am i a purest who feels that the soul of a rover is a 2.25p engine. As ignorant politicians soon will raise taxes on gas and the "carbon footprint" on cars above what we saw this time last year. I do not feel that series trucks will be grandfathered or overlooked with the carbon. I feel this purely for the fact that they bare the name Land Rover. I do however think they may give tax incentives (only wishful thinking) to Biodesiel converted autos and it would be cool to have a strong running or at least equal ,series that is vertually free to drive.

You all have been very helpful. i do not plan to just spend money on my rover for no reason. An ARB would be a better route for my needs at the moment, but a rebuild or swap does sound nice

I'd research whether the 2.5 is a good bio candidate. The UK forums should have info on this. Finding and building one is another issue. Not that many stateside. I'd talk to Turner and get a rebuilt long block that has been gas flowed. A turbo version would be cool if you could locate one...

[jimsshuman]

since your down in the wilmington area, you may be able to get a motor from a local shop down there called tidewater rovers. having said that, becareful what you get into with that guy. my only experience with him was not especially pleasant and some of the vehicles i've seen (pics on website and ebay) come from his shop didn't quite add up. i believe there are many others on this forum who would agree with me about this who probably have better reasons not to deal with him. i'm just throwing the fact out there that i think he normally keeps some motors lying around or moves them in and out fairly often, so you may be able to fairly easily, get in, buy one, and get the heck out of there.

fwiw
mw

btw, i'm up in raleigh, actually in jacksonville this weekend visiting the fam!

[Jim-ME]

PA Blanchard in England lists brand new complete 2.5L military NA diesels. Although they are not inexpensive I personally would go this route if I was willing to cut and weld my galvanized frame. I'm looking into a Rover 2.25L diesel with getting a rebuilt stripped motor from Turner. I have been made very aware of the shortcomings of a Rover diesel by people on this forum but it is the least expensive route as far as I can determine.
Jim

[Eric W S]

PA Blanchard in England lists brand new complete 2.5L military NA diesels. Although they are not inexpensive I personally would go this route if I was willing to cut and weld my galvanized frame. I'm looking into a Rover 2.25L diesel with getting a rebuilt stripped motor from Turner. I have been made very aware of the shortcomings of a Rover diesel by people on this forum but it is the least expensive route as far as I can determine.
Jim

That's still pretty pricey at around 5,200 from AB. for the gas flowed head. Turner says the diesels do well with their performance heads though..

[superstator]

I'd research whether the 2.5 is a good bio candidate. The UK forums should have info on this. Finding and building one is another issue. Not that many stateside. I'd talk to Turner and get a rebuilt long block that has been gas flowed. A turbo version would be cool if you could locate one...

The 2.5 uses the same injectors as the 2.25, so I would expect it to do just fine with Bio-d or SVO.

Jim-ME - if you're buying a new stripped engine from Turner, why wouldn't you just get the 2.5 for the same price? Are the mounts different?

[Clembs]

Ha i do live at wrightsville beach but due to the salt air i moved my sII a up to Roanoke va. i have heard all about not trusting tidewater.

[Eric W S]

The 2.5 uses the same injectors as the 2.25, so I would expect it to do just fine with Bio-d or SVO.

Jim-ME - if you're buying a new stripped engine from Turner, why wouldn't you just get the 2.5 for the same price? Are the mounts different?

"Although they are not inexpensive I personally would go this route if I was willing to cut and weld my galvanized frame." per Jim-ME a few post ago...

[yorker]

The 2.5 uses the same injectors as the 2.25, so I would expect it to do just fine with Bio-d or SVO.

Jim-ME - if you're buying a new stripped engine from Turner, why wouldn't you just get the 2.5 for the same price? Are the mounts different?

The problem with the 2.25 and SVO is the injection pump. 2.5 might be ok though.

[superstator]

"Although they are not inexpensive I personally would go this route if I was willing to cut and weld my galvanized frame." per Jim-ME a few post ago...

Yes. And I thought the 2.5 and 2.25 were practically identical and the 2.5 would be a drop in replacement without any cutting or welding. Which is apparently not the case, which is why I asked the question in hopes of maybe learning something useful.

[LaneRover]

Yes. And I thought the 2.5 and 2.25 were practically identical and the 2.5 would be a drop in replacement without any cutting or welding. Which is apparently not the case, which is why I asked the question in hopes of maybe learning something useful.

I always thought that the 2.5 was just a 2.25 with a different crank and a few other differences - but not motor mount differences. How different are they?

[Eric W S]

I always thought that the 2.5 was just a 2.25 with a different crank and a few other differences - but not motor mount differences. How different are they?

Motor mounts differently. You need to loose the battery from under the bonnet to in the cab.

[SafeAirOne]

Motor mounts differently. You need to loose the battery from under the bonnet to in the cab.

Not necessarily. I raised my battery tray and kept it under the bonnet.

[I Leak Oil]

Isn't the motor mount different because of the injection pump? Not necessarily the block right?
Jason T.

[yorker]

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=56

[Eric W S]

Not necessarily. I raised my battery tray and kept it under the bonnet.

Interesting. Most people get the sawzall out.

[Eric W S]

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=56

Good link. Sounds like a PITA to me.

[Blueboy]

Sounds like a PITA to me

no kidding!!!

on my recent trip from outside NYC to Rockville, MD an older VW Jetta TDI went by me.

next to the TDI logo there was a "runs on bio-diesel" sticker.

after reading that link it seems more trouble than its worth.

for LR content, my friend in Brasil had a '93 110 with a 200Tdi in it.

on our trip to Chile, his fuel pump died and he had to replace it at our camp site.

his reasoning for the failure was the diesel fuel was containing less and less sulpher for lubrication due to the addition of bio-diesel mixed with the regular diesel available at many stations.

Even International had in their manual for my 110 not to use bio-diesel in the 300Tdi which was too bad as the bio had a higher C value.


Jaime

[SafeAirOne]

...his reasoning for the failure was the diesel fuel was containing less and less sulpher for lubrication due to the addition of bio-diesel mixed with the regular diesel available at many stations.

There was an extensive test of diesel fuel additives and their ability to counteract the damaging effects of the low-sulphur diesel fuel being sold today.

This test seems to go against your friend's belief about biodiesel. The biodiesel was blended with low-sulphur diesel and outperformed ALL of the other 18 diesel fuel additives. Read all about it at:

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728

[Blueboy]

good read - thx.

keep in mind this was in Brasil and he was not putting any additives into the fuel.

must be something to it though as International Motors made sure they placed a "warning" in the Defender manual not to use bio.


Jaime

[superstator]

good read - thx.

keep in mind this was in Brasil and he was not putting any additives into the fuel.

must be something to it though as International Motors made sure they placed a "warning" in the Defender manual not to use bio.


Jaime

What I'd heard was that some of the newest injection systems, especially common rail setups, run at high enough pressure to cause all but the most perfectly refined biodiesel to begin to break down and loose lubricity - the local bio-d refiner here in PDX has been telling people to hold off using anything more than B5 or at most B20 in anything newer than 2007 or so. Older stuff like the CAV DPA ran at much lower pressure and didn't have the same problem. I'd just assumed that the same applied to SVO as long as you either prewarmed it or had a lift pump strong enough to deliver it cold - I wasn't aware it had it's own lubrication issues, though it makes sense in retrospect.

[SafeAirOne]

good read - thx.

keep in mind this was in Brasil and he was not putting any additives into the fuel.

must be something to it though as International Motors made sure they placed a "warning" in the Defender manual not to use bio.


Jaime

Yeah--I probably wouldn't run strictly biodiesel, but I'd be willing to use it as an additive if I had a B100 supplier around here.

[Clembs]

I would actually be running veggie oil if i did a conversion. That way i could get it from local resturants and filter it. You really can get by with the additive only every once in a while. My friend had a veggie converted Merc 300. He had it hooked up to a switch between tanks. Flip it and you start smelling like Mc D's

[Tim Smith]

It should be noted that the Merc 300 diesel (70-80s era) has one of the most robust injection pumps of any out there. They are probably the best suited motor for running straight vegi if you ask me.

[Eric W S]

It should be noted that the Merc 300 diesel (70-80s era) has one of the most robust injection pumps of any out there. They are probably the best suited motor for running straight vegi if you ask me.

I wish the rovers were like this. Seems like work to get them to do anything outside the factory parameters...

EwS

[junkyddog11]

PA Blanchard in England lists brand new complete 2.5L military NA diesels. Although they are not inexpensive I personally would go this route if I was willing to cut and weld my galvanized frame. I'm looking into a Rover 2.25L diesel with getting a rebuilt stripped motor from Turner. I have been made very aware of the shortcomings of a Rover diesel by people on this forum but it is the least expensive route as far as I can determine.
Jim

Jim, its a great motor (the 2.5) as long as you aren't in a hurry, that's the only shortcoming I can think of. Runs fine on 100% Bio (been doing this for years with only having to change the spill lines). I've made "adaptor" mounts so you don't have to cut your frame AND yes you can leave your battery under the bonnet.

Putting a 200 tdi under the bonnet is a whole 'nother thing with many complications involved.

[CliftonRover]

I did a write up about my swap on terrian's page

[Lawrie]

Several items per this post:

1) I will have two LR 2.5 na's for sale in 30 days complete with ancillaries, ready to bolt into series.
2) I may also have a Disco 200tdi complete with ancilaries, radiator,..: a) you can leave turbo off, and make it a 200di (see www.glencoe.uk (http://www.glencoe.uk),..) or b) leave turbo on, buy kit to twist exhaust around,,few other changes
Be careful with your foot as you will cook that gearbox
- will post in for sale section in a month or so

My thoughts:
-I had a low mileage 109 (Dirks old rig) with 5 bearing 2.25 petrol w/2.5 cam, rochester carb, large bore exhaust, electric fan (old Peugeot one) It went well - good torque, reasonable driving in hills. Consumed fuel.
-I then moved to d90 with 2.5 na diesel -same power as above petrol as but diesel torque makes it feel like more, but that long run in 3rd gear as it gradually comes up to speed makes it feel slow when bouncing between car and old rover. fuel consumption much better, torque makes it easier to drive, can stay in 3rd, vs having to downshift,... this had a LT 77 vs the 109 with S3 box and OD, so similar but still quite a bit more power to cruise at 65. noisier than petrol, but okay w/soundproof kit
-then moved to d110 300tdi/R380 and as we know - a whole other world. better fuel economy ~28 mpg, no smoke at start up, starts in cold, and so much more power, no comparison -Do not put 300 tdi in Series though.
-Had an 88" w/200tdi S3 box - kind of nutty, very loud, very peppy, very fun, really wants a modern gearbox behind it, or heavier 109 to calm it down. sold it before sound proof kit, ....
-currently running a 110 HICAP w/200tdi LT77 -this is great, plenty of power, smooth ride

Mercedes are old technology (240, 300d,) they smoke at startup, heavy.
Land rover engines are land rover, they bolt in (2.5 na and 200tdi) tdi is modern, cleaner engine, may be worth more money as your time is valuable, resale better, our Host RN will support 200tdi, 2.5 na,..
Note 200tdi into Series -do it right, modify bell housing bolts or you may blow rear main (see link above)

I have had great success with varying %'s of biodiesel up to ~95% all above diesels been okay with it (except did try it in a td5 -no go).
have to change fuel hoses on old 240d, old 2.5 for biodiesel, but pump seem fine - i don't want to collect veggie oil, nothing against it, just enjoy my 250 gallon summer tank of biodiesel, let it run out in late fall, another load in spring

lawrie

[Mercedesrover]

Mercedes are old technology (240, 300d,) they smoke at startup, heavy.

I have had great success with varying %'s of biodiesel up to ~95% all above diesels been okay with it (except did try it in a td5 -no go).

lawrie

Old technology? Hmmmm. Just squeezing oil. Not much technology there. If you mean Rover using a rubber belt instead of a chain, then yes, it's old technology.

The youngest 616/617 Benz diesel is now 24 years old and most are still going strong. 300k miles is easy with these engines and 500k miles is common. I don't think you'll see too many Rover diesel turning that many miles. (Not trying to bash Rover diesels. Just stating facts.)

The Benz isn't direct-injection like the newer Rover diesels and that may mean a little slower start in the morning, but that's about it. If you're getting heavy smoke out of a Benz diesel then it's probably worn out or you have other problems. But it is true they don't start as easily as a direct-injection engine.

As for burning biodiesel, it's really the same as regular diesel. It's burning vegatable oil where you run into trouble. The Benz will burn SVO or WVO with no modifications. I don't have first-hand knowledge but have heard the Rover diesel pump doesn't like veggie oil.

[Clembs]

has anyone ever tried a Volvo 240d engine? Those old 240s actually last forever. Honestly a Volvo P1800 '68 actually has the oldest non rebuilt daily engine/tranny of any car. The Today Show 2 years ago did a spot on the original owner and car. 1,800,000 at the time. Has anyone ever heard of that swap. The motors are dirt cheep (like $300).

[yorker]

has anyone ever tried a Volvo 240d engine? Those old 240s actually last forever. Honestly a Volvo P1800 '68 actually has the oldest non rebuilt daily engine/tranny of any car. The Today Show 2 years ago did a spot on the original owner and car. 1,800,000 at the time. Has anyone ever heard of that swap. The motors are dirt cheep (like $300).

The Volvo/VW diesels weren't that great- the 4 cylinder gas engines were pretty darned good though- someone in Mass or CT swapped one of those into his LR a few years back complete with the Volvo transmission (4spd IIRC) he was very happy with the result. I might have his email address somewhere- and I am sure some people on here know of him.

[Clembs]

hey man i can't believe the guy swapped out the tranny too. I agree about the 4cyl petrol engines lasting forever, the p1800 had pet. I had a '82 240 turbo. it was the only engine i have ever seen that is as easy to work on as a 2.25. Do you have any clue how the guy hooked up the transfer case? Not really sure but the old 240gl only had like 120hp and 0 troque. The turbo had 153hp or so. i really doubt i would ever swap a volvo but its a cool thought.

[Lawrie]

My apologies MercedesRover - I came across as negative. My daughter loves her 83' 240d - I have had several. I was getting at the fact that they are not as clean as newer Mercedes or other technology -
In light of this topic, my points were/are:
If you are going spend the time and money doing the swap, why not take it the the next step and go Direct Injection and how about Land Rover as the choice of manufacture. A few years ago this was not an option, now it is ~~within reach (still not cheap but possible to buy Disco 200tdi, and manifold kit, or do the "di" set up" I linked -
Or the 2.5 na a good option as cost lower, easier fit.
I agree apples to apples the mercedes is better built then rover 2.5 na.

My folks had a84' Volvo 240d, w/ the six cyclinder VW truck engine =huge torque, nice rythmn but it was smoky, and slow revving, and physically long.
Check out www.steveparkeruk (http://www.steveparkeruk) -they have been doing conversions for years, back 10 years ago, i wanted to buy his Peugeot kit and put an 85 2.5 td in my 109.

[Mercedesrover]

No apology necessary. No offense taken.

Speaking of clean diesels, have you seen the new Mercedes diesels with the urea tank in the back? True. They inject synthetic urea into the exhaust to aid in lowering emissions. The tank needs to be replenished every 15k miles. It says right in the owner's manual "Do not urinate into the urea tank!". I'm dead-serious! Hahaha!!!!

[greenmeanie]

Surely you are taking the piss.

[Tim Smith]

"Do not urinate into the urea tank!". I'm dead-serious! Hahaha!!!!I wonder if there was a translation expert on hand when they came up with that warning.

It was no wonder why the Nova had poor sales in Latin America. This being the other end of the translation fails in the automotive world.
;)

[yorker]

hey man i can't believe the guy swapped out the tranny too. I agree about the 4cyl petrol engines lasting forever, the p1800 had pet. I had a '82 240 turbo. it was the only engine i have ever seen that is as easy to work on as a 2.25. Do you have any clue how the guy hooked up the transfer case? Not really sure but the old 240gl only had like 120hp and 0 troque. The turbo had 153hp or so. i really doubt i would ever swap a volvo but its a cool thought.

I think it was the M46 transmission he used- I can't remember really but it wasn't a bad choice IMHO. (The gearbox is reportably good for near 220 hp levels with a torque load of 220-295 ft.lb (300-400 Nm). (http://www.rsphysse.anu.edu.au/~amh110/Supra/supra_in_volvo_240.htm) The tranny ratios are pretty good for a LR too.

I had a 1983 Volvo 240 that went for well over 300,000 miles with nothing done to it other than timing belt changes, one could do far worse for a nice little 4 cylinder gasoline engine swap.

I might have the fellow's email somewhere if anyone wants it- I'd have to dig a bit for it though. He used to post on here IIRC- it might have been on the old RN forum though.