thinking about 1970 IIA purchase

[DCM]

Hello everyone,
I am thinking about buying this as a daily driver (to replace my 2003 volvo!)
http://www.copleymotorcars.com/series_vintage_rovers5_3_25.3.2vo1552.html
I would appreciate any advice on how smart this is. It was restored at one point and is sold inspected and serviced. With that, is it likely to be a reliable and usable vehicle?

I have a 4 mile urban commute in the mild climate of Virginia, but absolutely have to have reliable transportation. I have been wanting to get a series forever but it hasn't worked out, this one seems almost practical. My wife has a new Odyssey so it wouldn't be the only family transportation. I'd appreciate anybody's insight on this. I have driven series rovers and know the main issues in general but wonder if they are mitigated somewhat by buying a restored or well-sorted vehicle. Thanks!

[Eric W S]

Find an 88 nearby and drive it. That will answer most of your questions.

Personally, as a DD, I like modern amenities and safety features. Trust me, good heat, AC and power everything go a long way.

Copely and that truck specifically, are overpriced.

[Firemanshort]

Greetings fellow crawler of the beltway... I live in Sterling, VA - out near Dulles.

First off - that thing will live a short and horrible life if you commute on the major interstates around here. Your fate would likely follow the truck's.

It will be noisy, drafty, cold and hot - and those are the good days. With the British electrics.... reliability... well,... the fire extinguisher is not in the photo for looks alone. :rolleyes: If you are a coat and tie kinda guy - then this is not your commuter car.

I am not really down on this Land Rover. I am sure it is a wonderful example - Copely has a good rep and they sell primo stuff. But the DC commute is ****** on a new car - to say nothing about a 40 year old car (any 40 year old car).

Buy a metropass for your daily commute. Still buy the Land Rover, just do not waste it as a daily driver. You will grow to hate it rather than love it for its peculiarities.

Take a peek here to see other geographically close, link-minded enthusiasts.... http://www.d-90.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16615&referrerid=2300

[Bertha]

From experience, I may be able to shed some light on this subject. Land Rover series trucks are fun and reasonably reliable. Based on your commute of 4 miles, I do not see a problem in using a Rover as daily transport. If jungle and dessert driving cant kill one, I doubt that Virginia roads will. Two questions come to mind: Will you be doing the basic maintenance yourself? Have you ever driven a series Rover before?
If you answered yes to both of those questions, then go for it.
Just note that luxury is not a Land Rover stong point and quite frankly a stripped out toyota still offers more creature comforts, so that is something you will have to get used to.

As far as the Rover at Copley, I would definitely not buy ity sight unseen. While they may have a decent reputation, I would still bring a trained eye to go and look at that truck with you, before laying down 15k.

[wooday]

but absolutely have to have reliable transportation.

Um, this is not the right car for you then.
Get a beater daily driver for $5000 and get a $8000 Series for fun trips.

Copley Motors is way overpriced. They have some nice trucks, but charge 1.5-2x what they're worth. Seems to me a car shop for people who don't really care about how much things cost... but really gotta have that one particular beautiful truck in the showroom.

[Jeff Aronson]

About 13 years ago we did a story in the Rovers North News by an enthusiast who needed to make his Series III a daily driver for a commute. He tackled the job by focusing on those elements of the car that make it reliable:

New wiriing for lights and engine

New charging system components- alternator, engine harness, battery

New braking system: master cylinder, wheel cylinders, brake lines

Complete fluid change - brake fluid, transmission, transfer case, front/rear axle gear oil, clutch fluid, steering box and relay, swivel balls. The clean fluids in the transmission and transfer case told him they would likely be fine, as did the running condition of the car.

Clutch replacement

Only then did he tackle the engine itself. He did a compression and a leak down test. He replaced the distributor with another Lucas one because you want to eliminate shaft wobble as a maintenance problem, and because you can always gap/clean/replace points on the fly but not an electronic ignitioin system.

He went ahead and installed a new carb, not because the old one didn't work, but because he wanted to start fresh.

He checked the front swivel balls to make certain they were clean and unpitted, and replaced the rear axle halfshafts just to start fresh.

He bought manuals for the car, read them, and looked at the maintenance schedule to make certain that he could/wanted to keep up with the more frequent maintenance called for by the Series Rovers.

The reason I cite this is because this man approached the refurbishment not for beautiful paint or interior, but for the highest reliability possible. That's different than a restoration or refurbishment done for a hobbyist or collector's car.

Copley Motorcars is a great company and Stuart Carpenter, the only person there I know, cares a lot about Land Rovers. The price is not high when you add up the cost of parts/labor required for all the systems that I've mentioned.

If he knows, or a competant mechanic can check it out, that the systems I've mentioned have been part of a refurbishment of this Rover, you can use it with confidence. The Boston area has tons of very capable enthusiasts who would help you. Cityside Garage (http://www.citysidegarage.com) in Holliston, MA may well know the car quite welll; you should contact Alan Elliot at Cityside for information. If he doesn't know it, he could check it out for you with daily driving in mind.

My '66 II-A has over 500,000 miles on it and I rely on it as a daily car. In past years it has been a highway traveler over hundreds of thousands of miles. There were times when I was expected to show up clean in a coat and tie. I could not always comply because of the Rover. Carry shop towels, gloves and a mechanic's "boiler suit" just in case.

Mine has stopped running on highways around Boston - vapor lock once, a broken coil ground wire connection once - but I've always beens willing to deal with its issues. You will need to do the same. It will not be comfortable, quiet, nor cool enough when you want it to be. Gas mileage on short trips like yours will be 16-19 mpg at best.

That said, you have enthusiasts in the DC area who do commute in their Series Rovers or Defenders. It can be done if that's what you decide you want to do. Just go into it with your eyes wide open :).

Jeff

[JackIIA]

DCM - kudos to you for putting yourself out there for advice on this decision.

I have to agree with many of the others on the price front. That does not appear to be a $16K truck. If it was sourced out of ECR in Maine, then I'd feel differently. But who is the 'enthusiast' and what is their level of skill. Copley Motors, is as Jeff notes a top notch outfit. They were located next to my office in Boston, and are now out in Needham, MA. But they aren't cheap, and you'd do better to buy locally where you can test drive as Eric points out.

Lastly, some make good points on Beltway traffic. That is the worst traffic I've ever had to sit in. If you spend $6K on a 'good' truck, do some of the basic improvements that Jeff notes, and come to hate the commute, you're not out a ton of money. And you can always resell for that $6K. $16K is going to be alot harder to recoup. At least from buyers who really love the trucks (like RN Forum crowd) and know what the sum of pieces is worth.

Good luck in your decision, and let us all know what you decide!

[CliftonRover]

A different set of seats, making the doors close correctly and have a good seal, a engine swap (tdi) and a set of disco axles with power brakes the right gearing, and a high ratio t-case would make the series a lot better. this is how my 109 is set up, I drive it 6 hours on the high way every weekend.

[LaneRover]

I think that the best advice so far is if you haven't driven one before, find one locally that you can take for a spin! 2nd best 15K is a bit much as if you look around you can probably find one similar for cheaper than that.

Brent

[DCM]

Thanks a lot for all of the advice so far. I have driven Series Rovers before and that is the problem; I've wanted one ever since! I have come close to buying a Discovery or Wrangler as a substitute but they aren't the same.

I emailed Alan at Cityside garage and will check with Copley to see what the inspection entailed. My thought with going through Copley is that I get something that has already been gone through and sorted by a good mechanic and that I could easily end up spending more money if I found a truck on my own and have to sort it out myself.

Thanks Jeff A for your comments, they address what I am wondering. If you own a series that is well sorted out with the items you mentioned, then do some of the typical downsides not apply anymore such as reliability?

I'll let you guys know what I learn and definitely if I decide to purchase. Thanks again!

[Jeff Aronson]

Thanks Jeff A for your comments, they address what I am wondering. If you own a series that is well sorted out with the items you mentioned, then do some of the typical downsides not apply anymore such as reliability?

I have two Series vehicles, one well sorted out and one less so. More importantly, one was sorted out through an extraordinary rebuild between East Coast Rover and Rovers North. Most of the systems within the car [brakes, electrics, suspension, chassis] were replaced; those that weren't [differentials, engine, transmission/transfer case] were inspected and I was told which ones required more work. I invested in that work though my own labor and parts expense.

It's been 5 years since that major refurbishment was done and with regular maintenance, the car remains utterly reliable. Mark Letorney at Rovers North taught me to stay ahead of maintenance, not react to it. So oil changes, ignition tuneups, bolt tightening, fluid refreshments/replacements, brake adjustments, are done to a maintenance schedule, not when something stops working right. Reliability is not a concern now, but that's because I'm willing to do the work on it. At the same time, I do carry a tool box around with me :).

Before the refurbishment, I ran the Rover for 13 years as a "rollling refurbishment." I did the routine maintenance that was called for but too often the original part would fail anyway because the car has 23 years of hard use under its belt and I was putting 25,000-30,000 miles a year on it. For the vast majority of those years, the car ran just fine, but I'll be the first the share the stories of heart-in-mouth nighttime drives of several hours with a generator light glowing red, or the Rover lagging behind on highways hills while I wonder where the power went, or strange noises and smells interfering with any happy thoughts. Generally, I could get the car back on the road with a "field repair" but it certainly made life exciting at times.

My second II-A has all the qualities that I love in a beaten-up II-A. It gets driven around this island town often as a work vehicle. This second II-A pleases and surprises me when it runs well; the first II-A pleases me all the time and now surprises me when it doesn't run well.

The other "downsides" of a Series Rover - it's noise, hard ride, relative lack of creature comforts, slow acceleration, etc. - remain the same. New door seals, a good heater [Kodiak original or Rovers North Mansfield heater], new seats, help with the comfort level but they don't transform the car into something "modern."

And they won't make up for a lack of routine maintenance. Everything in a Series Rover is adjustable so the maintenance schedule calls for checks and adjustments on a regular basis. If you do them, and the thrill of being in a Series Rover makes you very happy no matter what, then it's the right daily car for you.

Jeff

[TedW]

....who thinks you should go for it.

IMHO a 4 mile commute is nothing. I drove mine to work in Maine for a number of years (by choice) and never had a problem - 10 mile commute eah way. Your mild climate is a help (except for the need for a/c), too.

However, here's the scheme you should execute: Get the truck with the intention of commuting. Should it not work out after awhile it will then be easier for you to figure out a way to pick up a beater for the commute and keep the Rover. That's how my mind works, anyway.

[daveb]

Hi

I live in the heart of DC and have also lived in Northern VA commuting into DC. From August of 1995 through September 2001 I used a ' 72 SIII 88" and/or a '60 109" as my daily driver/commuter car for the drive from my home to my workplace on the National Mall in DC. I never had too much in the way of problems but I built these cars myself from the ground up, and I built them to be reliable daily drivers. But building a car right is only the first step. Like Jeff says, you have to maintain it as well. While there isn't necessarily anything wrong with buying a Series LR for $15k, it does not automatically mean you are getting a trouble free vehicle. I have seen far too many examples of trucks priced on the high end that were built by well-meaning but inexperienced people who either didn't realize things were done incorrectly or missing, or didn't care. I'd offer to let you drive my 109 but it is awaiting another round of repairs including a new engine.
Most of this year I have been driving my new-to-me '84 90 to get to my job but this is a far cry from the spartan lifestyle of a Series truck.

Don't buy the Copley 88 unless you have money falling out of your ears. It is nothing special, it just has a paint job that looks good in photographs on the interent. If you want to spend that much money on a Series truck I know of several that are for sale in Virginia that are much nicer than that one and with a much better pedigree.

Failing that, there are other individuals on this board who have been known to provide decent trucks in solid mechanical condition and often with sensible upgrades, for much less money, without the unnecessary "bling" of a $4k paint job that is not even the correct shade of blue to be called Marine Blue. Even more alarming on second look is the lack of any kind of heater or defrosting arrangement. For 15k you expect the best heater available for a Land Rover and maybe even have somebody bolt down the fire extinguisher.

In fact, for 15k I would expect to see a galvanised frame, and not have the rest of the galvanised trim painted over as it appears these have been, and I would want a bumper without chalky, running paint. There are numerous other places where the rust is starting to show through, and the vehicle has no improvements done for driveability. A dished bonnet would make it easier to see over the spare tire. The door tops could at least be replaced with defender ones to allow more air flow. The mirrors could be mounted at the door to allow one to actually see what is behind you. Is there an overdrive fitted? Run away, and keep your money. There are much better trucks out there. PM me if you would like to know where to find some other vehicles.

best,
Dave B.



Hello everyone,
I am thinking about buying this as a daily driver (to replace my 2003 volvo!)
http://www.copleymotorcars.com/series_vintage_rovers5_3_25.3.2vo1552.html
I would appreciate any advice on how smart this is. It was restored at one point and is sold inspected and serviced. With that, is it likely to be a reliable and usable vehicle?

I have a 4 mile urban commute in the mild climate of Virginia, but absolutely have to have reliable transportation. I have been wanting to get a series forever but it hasn't worked out, this one seems almost practical. My wife has a new Odyssey so it wouldn't be the only family transportation. I'd appreciate anybody's insight on this. I have driven series rovers and know the main issues in general but wonder if they are mitigated somewhat by buying a restored or well-sorted vehicle. Thanks!

[Terrys]

I've seen that truck, and think it's perfectly lovely...................for $6500-$7500.
The blue isn't correct, nor is the white. It has no heat (and no defrost) The Defender brush bars looks horrible, and it has no OD. Everything reeked of "cosmetic restoration only".
There's nothing wrong with using a series truck for rural or suburban commuting. I did when I was young, for 7 years. I traded that one for a new F-150 and thought I got a limosine.
My old mantra was that a series truck is hot in the summer, cold in the winter, and wet year round. That one will just be colder in the winter.
Copley always has lots of Land Rovers. He sells plenty too, but usually to the Nantucket, MV type crowd who need one to complete the image. I don't know a single person I think of as an enthusiast who has gone to them first. Check the usual places like Landroverexchange.com.
The last one I did totally over, on a galvy chassis, with OD, new everything, and each panel painted seperately, went for $12ish

[Blueboy]

I have driven Series Rovers before and that is the problem; I've wanted one ever since!

to throw something else in the mix, you might also want to check this out:

http://www.eastcoastrover.com/ecrforsale.html

"1983 Land Rover 110 County Station Wagon, 2.5 gas, 5 speed, RHD"

way cooler than the 88 you are considering imho.


Jaime

[Jeff Aronson]

Get in touch with Dave B on buying a Rover; he's very knowledgeable about all aspects of Land Rovers, and lives near you, too. Send him a PM - he's a worthwhile contact.

As Jaime said, an 80's Land Rover 110 would be a very good vehicle. East Coast Rover will be very, very careful to tell you exactly what the car does or does not need. An original Land Rover County 110 would be a better buy for the money you're talking about than a Series III with the "wrong" paint color and an unnecessary brush bar for urban commuting.

Send me a PM if you want me to look at the car for you. ECR is located in the same town where our island's ferry service lands, and I have some trips to the mainland coming up.

You could also consider letting the DC/Virginia area enthusiasts find you a good base Rover to which you could have some of the system upgrades made for you. In the end, you might wind up spending a similar amount but you'll know that the right work for your needs has been done to the car.

Jeff

[DCM]

This is great information. It sounds like for 15K there are better options. Ted W, I agree with getting the Rover and then a commuter if necessary later because it is much easier to justify than buying a 15K car as a 3rd vehicle.

My plan for the last 4 years has been to save up 30K and get one done by Lanny Clark but it seemed like this one at Copley might be a good short cut. That Defender at ECR is awesome but there is something about the simple, all metal, few electronics of the series that is great.

Thanks again for the comments.

[Blueboy]

there is something about the simple, all metal, few electronics of the series that is great

DCM,

The 110 with ECR is what you described.

This is not a 1993 110 with a 3.9 V8 that has fuel injection and all that goes with it.

It is a basic Rover that offers more room than a III.

If you haven't had a chance, scroll through the pics to see the engine bay - it will probably look familiar if you've been looking at Series Rovers.

And to confirm what Jeff has said, with ECR you will know very well what you are getting. Read Mike Smith's (owner of ECR) story on the site about his one vehicle buying experience and you will gain a better appreciation of ECR vehicle sales philosophy.

I have had a D90 and now have a 109 primarily due to the versitility of the extra room in the 109.

Again, just something to consider before you leap in.

Jaime

[StX_Rovers]

That 110 looks great. Another thing to consider is that it has a Salisbury rear, not the Rover rear, so no axle worries. The 2.5 litre four cylinder is just a development of the 2.25.

If you have kids, it has lots of room. If they are small kids the rear seat is going to work much better for strapping in car seats than dry wall screwing them to the rear tub of an 88.

The coil spring chassis have a reputation of being a much more comfortable ride. This is a consideration as your wife drives an Odyssey instead of a 67 88 like my wife does. However, we have found that as a family car our 109 diesel worked very well when my sister and her family visited. Something about the low frequency rumble of the 2.25 diesel just puts children right out. It was either that or the exhaust. A couple of trips around the block and they were out like a light.

Michelle uses her 88 as a daily driver here on St. Croix. Everyone on the island knows her, which is basically a good thing. It is currently down due to a blown head gasket and a valve job (waiting on the machine shop, island time you know).

Another thing very much in the 110's favor is that it is RHD. That alone is worth the price difference between the Copley 88 and the 110. If you do go the 110 route get the frame waxoyled internally. That might be something ECR is equipped to do. There are a couple of spots on the frame int he photos that bear beating on with a hammer to check for rust. it is important to find out when the undercoat was applied, before shipping to the states or in 1983.

I figure that you have to use your daily driver on a daily basis so it might as well be a vehicle you enjoy.

Whatever you eventually get, do follow Jeffrey Aronson's advice on the regular maintenance, which approach really is true of every vehicle from a Tata to a Rolls Royce.

[Bertha]

to throw something else in the mix, you might also want to check this out:

http://www.eastcoastrover.com/ecrforsale.html

"1983 Land Rover 110 County Station Wagon, 2.5 gas, 5 speed, RHD"

way cooler than the 88 you are considering imho.


Jaime

Nice but pricey for a RHD truck, not to mention RHD(in puke brown) is a pita for daily use. When I originally bought my truck 18yrs ago it was RHD and after the first 6k miles I put on it, the novelty quickly wore off(and has since been converted). I would not recommend it to a new LR owner wanting to use it for a daily commute.

[Bertha]

Another thing very much in the 110's favor is that it is RHD. That alone is worth the price difference between the Copley 88 and the 110.

Huh? Rhd trucks are worth less than left hand drive trucks-to most people in the states, it is a negative, not a positive.

[ktom300]

I'm curious why the bias against RHD rovers? I love mine and would never consider converting it over but I don't daily drive it. Visibility is an issue with the military top but I still wouldn't go LHD.

[Bertha]

I'm curious why the bias against RHD rovers? I love mine and would never consider converting it over but I don't daily drive it. Visibility is an issue with the military top but I still wouldn't go LHD.

see post #20

[ktom300]

see post #20

I read post #20 but is still didn't answer the question. Why did the novelty wear off?

[daveb]

Currently using a RHD vehicle as a daily driver. I could see a few reasons why it would wear off. Have all the parts here to do the swap but I am not planning to for quite a while.

I would get the engine serial number from that 2.5 110, I thought 83's were all 2.25's...






I read post #20 but is still didn't answer the question. Why did the novelty wear off?

[DCM]

Talk to Alan at Cityside garage yesterday. Mechanically, the truck is in good shape and has been serviced. He was confident that it could be used as a daily driver but was wondering why anyone would want to:).

[daveb]

Obviously you just want us to tell you to buy that one. Go for it. It'll be great. When you are sick of it you can sell it for half what you paid for it. Then you can take that money and buy one that is twice as good. No good lesson is free....

If you just have to spend that kind of coin, then look here:

http://www.gettherats.com/rovers.htm

Ike Goss usually has some nice things for sale too, usually at more reasonable prices:

http://www.pangolin4x4.com/

Now you are armed with some basic information. Time for you to do some homework yourself.


Talk to Alan at Cityside garage yesterday. Mechanically, the truck is in good shape and has been serviced. He was confident that it could be used as a daily driver but was wondering why anyone would want to:).

[Jeff Aronson]

LOL - Alan has asked me the same question about running a Series Rover daily :).

When I decided to look seriously at a Series Rover as a daily car that I would have to rely on, I found a Land Rover enthusiast and "rented" him and his tatty Rover for several hours of driving on paved roads. We went to look at Rovers for sale and I drove about 10 hours that day.

The ride, noise level, "comfort" factors, etc., became very evident that day. I came away convinced that if a Rover as noisy, hard-riding and generally neglected as his could make it through 3 states that day, a Land Rover would work for me. It was a cheap investment in making certain that I was ready to move from old British sports cars as daily drivers to a Land Rover as a daily driver.

It worked for me, but not without the needs for tools, a Haynes manual, LOTS of phone calls to Rovers North, and hard work/money invested in the car's parts. You have to want to become self-sufficient in terms of maintenance and repairs on your car. You WILL have to make repairs - generally simple - and perform maintenance checks on the car when you use it dailly. Make certain you get to ride/drive in a Series Rover for a few hours straight before you decide on a Series Rover as your daily car.

Jeff

[Eric W S]

Obviously you just want us to tell you to buy that one. Go for it. It'll be great. When you are sick of it you can sell it for half what you paid for it. Then you can take that money and buy one that is twice as good. No good lesson is free....

If you just have to spend that kind of coin, then look here:

http://www.gettherats.com/rovers.htm

Ike Goss usually has some nice things for sale too, usually at more reasonable prices:

http://www.pangolin4x4.com/

Now you are armed with some basic information. Time for you to do some homework yourself.

Are those ECR rovers even for sale? I think that started as a rumour. Usually most of Mike's trucks are brokered through him if they are legit. Least that is what he has said on numerous occassions.

THe story I heard was that the affluent gentleman had a passion for rovers but has since passed away and that the rovers are for sale. I think it's a rumour at best.

[DCM]

[quote=daveb]Obviously you just want us to tell you to buy that one.quote]

Not decided at all, just posting info as I have it. I know to offer less if I do decide on that one, but I am looking around to see what is available at that price as recommended. Those Twin Springs Farm Rovers are amazing, especially the 1961 one. I sent them an email to see if any are for sale.

I think that as Jeff A said, it would be helpful to spend some time driving one since my last drive in a series was 14 years ago. DaveB: your series is not running now right? Is there anyone else on the board from the DC metro area? It looks like Land Rover Alexandria has a RHD series for sale, so I may go drive that one. Last time they had a series for sale, they were asking 88K.

[galen216]

Are those ECR rovers even for sale? I think that started as a rumour. Usually most of Mike's trucks are brokered through him if they are legit. Least that is what he has said on numerous occassions.

THe story I heard was that the affluent gentleman had a passion for rovers but has since passed away and that the rovers are for sale. I think it's a rumour at best.

Are you talking about the get the rats Rovers? Dr. Bear is quite alive and all are for sale.

He's very close to me so if anybody needs a test drive I will be glad to help out.

EDIT: Except the SIII in blue with 300 tdi, he won't sell that one.

[Eric W S]

Are you talking about the get the rats Rovers? Dr. Bear is quite alive and all are for sale.

He's very close to me so if anybody needs a test drive I will be glad to help out.

EDIT: Except the SIII in blue with 300 tdi, he won't sell that one.

Oh cool! It's always kinda sad to hear an avid collector passed.

The Series III is the best one! Love that 300tdi...

[Leslie]

I've been in love w/ that '73 Lightweight for years........

[Jim-ME]

The 69 with the 2.5NA is what I origionally set as a goal for my 64. Now it will be a combination of that one plus one of Ike's.
Jim