New to the Forum, Axle Upgrade Question

[kidrover86]

Hello everyone, I am new to the forum and the finer details of series rovers. Here's a quick back story. My father has had two rovers, an 88 and currently a 109. When I was younger I used to help him maintain the 109. I'v been at college for a few years now and the rover has been sitting for awhile. I know just about everything there is to know about Jeeps (I have a modified JK), and my buddy is big toyota nut. We're both avid wheelers. The rover is currently non-op and requires a thorough mechanical restoration. As a summer project my buddy and I are going to take it on. The objective is to get the rover running and dependable for around town, freeway, and offroad. Ultimately we'd like to take it on a trip down baja.
My question has to do with stock components. It's a 67 series IIA with fairy overdrive. Looks like were going to drop in a reconditioned 2.25 petrol with high compression ratio. I'd like to throw in a series 3 tranny with full synchro. Is the series 3 as strong as the series 2? Also my main concern is the axles. I've been tooling around the forum for a couple days and it looks like a salisbury axle from the series 3 is a good upgrade? I believe it shares components with a dana 60? I was hoping to upgrade to at least 24 spline. It would also be nice to get front disc brakes. My toyota buddy wants to put built up fj axles in. In a quest to keep things as british as possible is it possible to upgrade a salisbury to the strength of an upgraded fj axle? I'll probably install some parabolic springs an OME shocks to increase articulation, possibly even a spring over axle flip to gain ground clearance.
THANKS for spending the time reading this! Everyone on here seems very helpful and I look forward to making some friendships with fellow rover fans. I'll chime in on other posts having to do with general mechanical and offroad performance issues. As my knowledge grows with the rover scene I'll help there too. Thanks again and sorry for the lengthy post!:thumb-up:

[CliftonRover]

if you want to stay british some discovery axles or late range rover classic axles are cheap. If you re-geared them they would be fine for what your doing. also they are discs all around. a later series three gearbox is your best bet I have been told to avoid suffix a series III tannys.

[kidrover86]

Thanks CliftonRover. I hadn't thought of a disco axle but sounds like it would work. I could probably find them locally for pretty cheap and just grind off the coil spring perch's and control arm mounts. Avoids having to shell out for the disc conversion too.

[kidrover86]

Also, does anybody know the difference in width between the series rover axles and a series 1 disco axle?

[greenmeanie]

Be aware that the coiler axles are wider so the wheels will most likely protrude from under the wheel arches. The rear axle is not too difficult but getting the front to work with the different steering arms is more involved. It has been done but it takes a bit of effort.

[kidrover86]

True. My friend has done a couple of IFS to solid axle swaps in toyotas, and being leaf sprung, we should be able to make it work. Width is the bigger issue. I'll have to find out what the stock wheel backspacing is, we might be able to just change that with different rims and be ok.

[Drain Rovers2]

im pretty sure the with is 2 inches on each side and the ratio is different you can use disco axles and they would work but you'd have to ask forrest about the gearing.

[yorker]

Coil sprung axles aren't just wider, the steering is on the back of the axle and wants to occupy the same space your leaf springs are in. You can kind of see how close it can be in this attached pic.

Personally I'd simply upgrade what is there with axles from Jim Young- www.Seriestrek.com (http://www.Seriestrek.com) you can either upgrade to 24 spline axles or 30 spline shafts and Toyota diffs.

Otherwise you could use a set of axles from an FJ40 or FJ55, that would be a fairly simple upgrade- you'd then want to probably upgrade the front birfields but the width of these axles is nearly the same as the series axles, they have the same RH diff offeset, etc. You can also gain F disc brakes with this, and cheaply upgrade to rear disc brakes.

FWIW check out Blue Bomber's posts here: http://gunsandrovers.yuku.com/topic/5339

[TeriAnn]

Thanks CliftonRover. I hadn't thought of a disco axle but sounds like it would work. I could probably find them locally for pretty cheap and just grind off the coil spring perch's and control arm mounts. Avoids having to shell out for the disc conversion too.
Other than the facts that the axles are a lot longer and the steering likes to occupy the same space as the leaf springs, the diffs have the wrong R&P ratio for a Series transfercase and they were made to be adequately strong in full time 4WD.

The Rover carrier is a weak 2 pin design. What I suggest is to upgrade the carrier to either a Trutrac or ARB (I prefer TruTrac up front & ARB in the rear) to get the strong carrier plus traction aid then pick up hardened 24 spline axles from either SeriesTrek of Great basin Rovers. That should give you plenty of strength. It you want to go the extra mile, replace the 4.7:1 R&P gears front & rear with the much stronger 4.75:1 R&P available from Great Basin Rovers. The rear axle needs the most help in a Series rig. unless you are building a rock crawling rig you should be able to get by with stock front axles on an 88.

The Salisbury is an older style Dana 60 built in the UK under license from Dana. You would need to move the spring purches inboard to fit an 88. It is a longer diff requiring a shorted rear drive shaft. The 88 already has a very short rear drive shaft. The factory only used Salisburys on 109s. I recommend for an 88 that you stay with the rover housing & just upgrade the internals.

If you want front disc brakes you have two primary sollutions: one manufactured by Torrel industries and sold by Rocky Mountain and the ones manufactured by Timm Cooper. I have a web page that goes over what is available: http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/discBrake.htm

If you are not into double clutching, the Series III box can be just fine off road. The secret to keeping them intact is that the syncros like to come to a stop between gear changes. So what you want to do is momentarily pause your shift in the middle of the 'H'. The SIII box can't handle speed shifts well for long term. People slamming them into gears is where they receive their bad reputations. The advantage of a SIII box is that parts will be available for them longer. Some SIIA gearbox parts are becoming NLA from the factory.

A Series Land Rover has a very narrow wheelbase and you loose lateral stability of you lift it a whole lot. Most people who do a spring over axle mod on these vehicles de-arch the springs so at most they only gain an inch or two of body lift. You loose lateral stability when you go from stock leaf springs to parabolics. If you do both I suggest a full functional roll cage.

32 inch dia tyres are stock for 109's and optional for 88's They can take 33.3's without any modification. You could probably handle 35's with Defender wheel arches.

http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/GRdetailPics/NewWing.jpg

The vehicle in front has Defender outer wing panels (They just bolt right on) and 33.3 inch dia tyres. The vehicle in the background has stock Series outer wing panels and 32 inch dia tyres. The vehicle in the background has a military 109 frame with extended shackles which provides a 2 inch lift. The vehicle in front has a civilian frame and extended shackles which provides about an 1 inch lift. Very narrow 36 inch diameter tyres were standard fitment to some Land Rovers with the military frame and extended shackles. If you decide to try extended shackles with a civilian frame you will need a 6 degree wedge between the axle perch and the spring to correct the steering geometry.

[kidrover86]

Wow! Thanks TeriAnn. I believe I may have come across your web page the other day. Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge, it is clear you have done your research! I'm going to look into all your suggested options for the axle upgrades. Maintaining the stock housing will definitely keep things on the simpler side. We're not trying to build a crawl buggie but do want bombproof dependability. We are not hard on our vehicles but we do push them through their paces. If we keep the 2.25L I wouldn't want to go any bigger than 33's anyways. Gears could always be swapped out but we would loose the top end on the highway. From what I've read the parabolics are a great upgrade. Wether or not we do an axle flip will wait tell I start working on it. I'm also looking at some revolver shackles to increase articulation. I'm very familiar with the narrow track on the rovers. More backspacing and wider tires could help this. Either way this is exactly what I needed and a great starting point. Thank you very much again!.

[StX_Rovers]

It sounds like you are planning a lot of both work and changes to the 109. A stock 109 in good condition, especially with the Salisbury rear, should make that Baja trip as is I think. Spending a bunch of time making changes might put the trip off for a year or more.

Since you have a 109, the easiest upgrade is swapping in a S3 Salisbury as all you have to do is shorten your existing driveshaft. Otherwise it is a straight bolt in swap. That is what we did with our 67 109 diesel wagon, and it has worked great. If you get the axle from a donor S3 109 snag the driveshaft at the same time, just make sure the sliding bit is still good.

As Teri Ann suggested, install an ARB in the rear and a Tru-Trac in the front. The Tru-Trac is a torsen style differential that drives like an open diff until one wheel starts slipping. We have one in the Strange 60 (Dana built by Strange axles) in our 70 RR and it is great. However for a Land Rover, the ARB, as it is a full locker, is probably a better choice for the rear as even with one wheel in the air it will drive them both evenly.

If you are trying to get the truck ready for a trip to Baja and it currently does not run I would not get into lifting it, swapping out a functioning gearbox etc. Change all the fluids and start with inspecting everything. The S2a gearbox is a fine gearbox and the non-synchromesh is no problem, my wife drives her 67 2A 88 daily, and learned to drive a manual on our 67 109, which is currently getting a new frame (at which point it will become the other daily driver). The size of the dog teeth on a S2A second gear is impressive.

If you switch to a Series 3 box you will also have to switch the throwout bearing assembly, so if you go that route with a tranny from a donor be sure you get all the parts required there. The parts availability situation TeriAnn mentioned is certainly valid, though, I have been noticing that myself.

It sounds as if you have had some good advice on the other axle options out there. I have no experience with Series Trek or the others. If you go the Salisbury route for the rear, be sure to take the centre section from the rear axle with you when you go on your Baja trip. They are interchangeable. That way if you blow out something in it you can swap it in. Of course, if you go with the Tru-Trac, you have just replaced all the parts other than the Ring and pinion so breaking it is not likely. Still, you might be glad you have it.

If you are not rock crawling do you really need that extra lift?

Whichever route you choose please go completely through the brake system, and consider bringing some metal brake line, some end fittings and a good quality double flare tool with you on your Baja trip.

Have fun and thanks for resurrecting another Land Rover. Keep asking questions, there is a wealth of knowledge here.