looking at *another* series III

[NickDawson]

Hey gang,
I feel like this week has been a whirlwind crash course in Series Rovers - I owe most of that education to you guys.

I decided to heed the good advice and slow my search down, and I'm glad I did.
I've been eying ads all week from around the country - not to buy anything, but to learn prices, comps, etc...

Another member on the board was nice enough to forward me a link for a truck for sale about 2 hours from me. I'm still interested in taking it slow, but would like to know what the group thinks of this (limited) info:


1976 Ser III swb, rhd, imported from england, Overdrive, disc brake upgrade, new radiator, carb, many many new parts, runs great.
The pictures don't tell me much about condition, but based on what I learned from the last thread the body appears to be more authentic - the rear windows for instance.

Again, like the last thread taught me, its an import which means we don't really know the history. The owner told me that he is an 'enthusiast' supported by a friend who is a 'rover expert' and that the truck had the 2.25 diesel which was swapped for the petrol model before it was shipped to the US in 1979. The odo reads 56K which strikes me as way too low for anything that age, but again, how do you ever really know?

Owner says he has put a lot into it - front disc brake conversion. Screw-on air filter adapter, new wiring harness....

Besides the lack if pics for the inside, he tells me the floor had some rust that repaired with solid but less-than-attractive welds. The 2nd gear syncro is also not working well. As he says, if he was to keep it it would work on them both at the same time.

A day to Baltimore is not anything lost for me... so I for my education it might be worth it.

I'm curious what this group would think about the floor panel needing some welding and the 2nd gear syncro being shot.... a bit more advanced than I was hoping to start with, but if its running well and has no rust (which I'd check first hand), then would those be reasonable projects for a first Series truck?

Also interested in what people think about the disc break conversion - strikes me as a good thing?

Thanks again for the support, help and advice on this re-indoctrination to the Rover world!

-N

[greenmeanie]

The picture shows a series III 88 hartop. Things to note are:
- The rear windows are aftermarket items and not the larger station wagon or windowed hartop kind. They won't slide open like ther originals but its up to you whether that's a plus or not.
- The windscreen wipers are parked in the vertical position. That may indicate a wiring issue with the installation of the new harness. They should park horizonatal but that may be just the picture and me being way too picky.
- The body cappings are very bright silver. That means they are either newly regalvanized or just painted silver. I would expect the latter although this is small stuff compared to the essentials or a solid bulkhead and chassis. It may be nicely maintained but it is not a concourse type vehicle so bear that in mind when talking price.

From the description:
- The ovedrive is a plus and makes the truck much more useable on the freeway. Don't believe any claims of fuel economy. It just brings the rpm down to a bearable level. Find out whether it is a Fairey or a Roverdrive although both have their positive and negative aspects.
- Disc brakes are nice and need less maintenance than drums. An 88 with well maintained drums, however, should stop well so they are not much of a peformance enhancement on a stock truck. I would not consider them a huge selling point compared to having a sound basic vehicle. Find out if the are Rovesnorth, Rocky Mountain or at an outside chance Ti Console.
- It is probably a spin oil filter adapter. This is a nice upgrade as it means you can get a filter cheaply at any local auto store. It also means that you can avoid the traditional series mechanic initiation of oil dripping of your elbow at every oil change. It is less than $100 for a new one so don't let it affect your price.
- A new radiator is a plus as these can silt up after decades of use. Use it plus a lot of new parts to indicate someone has been caring for it. Ask for receipts and report back on what has been overhauled and replaced.
- It has later defender style mirrors which are nice but shouldn't affect price by themselves. He also has a Late IIA or Rocky Mountain grill in one photo which makes the SIII look much nicer compared to the plastic grill IMHO.
- The 2nd gear synchro is a sticking point. You can drive the tuck without it usign double clutching but it will become wearisome in city traffic. To fix this you'll need to opull the gearbox and if you are cracking it open you'll wwant to do an overhaul and nect thing you know you'll be the better part of $1K in the hole. The alternative is to pick a used unit and just swap it out but wither way you'll be stripping the entire cab to get it out. On these trucks the gearbox is removed UP though the cab and not dropped out the bottom. Time and money and a really good bargaining point if you choose to buy.
- The floor boards are aluminium and not prone to much rot. The foot wells in the bulkhead, however, are mild steel and a common area for perforation. Pay very close attention to the repair and use your judgement. If the footwells are rusty spend a lot of time looking over the bulkhead. If the bulkhead has rust either knock the price waaaay down or better yet walk away. It is time consuming and expensive to replace/repair.

If it costs you nothing go and have a look as the more you look at the better idea you'll get for what makes a good truck. Make sure you leave your cheque book at home so you don't impulse buy. It may turn out to be the one for you but never buy on the first visit.

[Jeff Aronson]

Greenmeanie has really given you some sage observations. I'm with what he wrote.

The Series III transmission is fully synchronized, so if one synchro ring is going, the others can't be far behind. I had to rebuild my Series II-A transmission once and as Greenmeanie noted, once I opened it up to replace the couple of worn out parts, I also found 30+ years of wear had taken their toll on other parts. About 10 years ago, then, I spent around $700 in replacing everything replaceable.

The new wiring harness is a nice refurbishment. The spin on oil filter housing is just dross and bling. Sure, it's neater to put on a spin on filter but the key question is how often did he change the oil and replace the filter? What does the oil look like right now? It should be amber and translucent in the sun. It should not look black.

When you go to look at it, have him remove a spark plug. The tips should be brownish or grey, not black, wet with gas, or white from running too lean. If he won't do that for you, then keep searching.

The disk brake conversion is a nice daily driver upgrade, but I'm troubled that this expensive upgrade would be completed when the transmission is wearing out and the bulkhead toeboards [I presume that's what he's describing] are rusting away.

"Ugly welds" are in the eyes of the beholder, but they raise questions about the quality of the work. The bulkhead is part of the structure of the Rover, so it's important to the longevity of the vehicle.

With their high petrol prices, Brits don't put the kind of annual mileage on cars that we do in the US. 58,000 miles on a car that has been someone's second vehicle is believable enough. BUT, you don't know the life of the engine prior to its installation in replacement of the diesel. A compression test and maintenance records would tell you a lot. Again, the current owner would probably encourage you to do just that.

It would be good for you to go see and drive the car. If it's a good runner as advertised, you'll have a driving experience for your possible daily use that will help you determine whether a Series Rover makes sense for your needs.

If you can't drive it [no plates or registration], walk right on by.

As others have noted, the Brits treat Land Rovers like we treat old pickup trucks. Series Rovers in really great condition tend to remain in England and not find themselves exported. There are shops in the US that import quality Rovers into the US, and they have their contacts in the UK to help assess quality. It would be good for you to know who exported it [a dealer? privatre individual] and who imported it into the US.

The car's real flaws give you some bargaining leverage on price, but be prepared to spend some money on the transmission and the toeboards.

Maybe this is a good time for you to review your desire for a RHD import. A Series Rover is rare enough in daily use that you'll get all the looks you need in one. To this day Land Rover still exports over 75% of its vehicles so there's nothing particularly special about a UK version.

And don't go look at a vehicle without asking someone in the DC area on this Forum to join you. ALL Land Rover enthusiasts enjoy looking at another Rover, particularly when it's someone else's wallet that's doing the talking :). The seller and his Land Rover friend are undoubtedly enthusiasts [we've run articles by enthusiasts from Baltimore in past issues] but at this moment, he's also a "dealer" of a Land Rover. So bring your own sage enthusiast along with you.

Have fun!

Jeff

[NickDawson]

Thanks again guys - I'm really enjoying the learning process here.

Anyone in DC want to go look at trucks today :D?



The car's real flaws give you some bargaining leverage on price, but be prepared to spend some money on the transmission and the toeboards.

Maybe this is a good time for you to review your desire for a RHD import. A Series Rover is rare enough in daily use that you'll get all the looks you need in one. To this day Land Rover still exports over 75% of its vehicles so there's nothing particularly special about a UK version.

I agree about the bargaining power - however a tranny rebuild or replacement was not the first project I wanted to tackle. So he'd have to come of the price for the amount of my having someone else do the work...

As for the RHD - I'm not intending to use a series truck as a daily driver at all; just weekends around town and the occasional trail. And that makes RHD kind of interesting. That said, I'm not at all attached to the idea, they just happen to be what I keep finding (and maybe that tells me something).

What I am encuraged by is the consistancy I am seeing in pricing which tells me that the $5-6K rang for a truck that is 'ok shape but could use some work' is reasonable. Now its a question of finding one that needs the right kind of work vs a total nightmare.

I'm really kicking myself - family friend just sold a very nice refurbed and well loved III for $4.5K. It was in wonderful shape (I know the mechanic that cared for it well) and its retired doctor owner was just ready to part ways... wish I had been looking more seriously then.

[Jeff Aronson]

Don't fret. Series Rovers in reasonable shape are around; people are always moving and out of them.

In this car market, $5-$6,000 should get you a car that does not need immediate work. To be honest, the cars you've posted here had money invested in the cosmetic aspects of the car. The best car for you would be one that is cosmetically rough, not in terms of rust, but paint and interior, but has the right work done on the major mechanical. electrical and braking systems. That way you'll have a car that you can learn the basics on without having to tackle a depressingly major job early on.

RHD tells you the origin of the car [UK] not its condition. You'll want to use it a lot more than you think once you've bought it, so it's not going to be just a weekend car. Also, if and when you need steering or exhaust components, you'll find it harder to find some components because of the RHD. Why force yourself into more difficulties?

Jeff

[NickDawson]

The best car for you would be one that is cosmetically rough, not in terms of rust, but paint and interior, but has the right work done on the major mechanical. electrical and braking systems. That way you'll have a car that you can learn the basics on without having to tackle a depressingly major job early on.
Jeff

I could not agree more with that statement!

There's a 109 on E-bay about 40 mins for me that appears to be in good condition...this is a slippery slope...

[Jeff Aronson]

There you go!

There were a lot of 109" military [NATO if LHD] that came into the US in the 80's and 90's. If it's a '60's Series II-A, then it might be an NADA North American car. That would be really nice.

109's have some unique parts [brakes, for example], but they're terrific because even with the extra length, they're shorter than most modern cars overall.

Happy hunting.

Jeff

[NickDawson]

So I looked at the '76 rhd 88...
and I now understand the value of having a rover whisperer with you...

The paint job was nice, but we all know what that means...

As a novice, I felt good about the engine - clean, good wiring and ran well.

The rust issues on the floor boards are disconcerting - Its clear to me that one could cut out the worrisome parts and weld in some new plates. What I'm not sure about is how structural those areas are and how systemic the rust is.

The area in question is right where the floor boards make a curve up towards the firewall - like where your toes would end up.

From the engine compartment, I could see some surface rust on the firewall, but its no worse than our junky 1997 Trooper...

The frame looked good to me, but I could not get under there with a hammer. There was some surface rust under the wheel wells.

The transmission was not as bad as advertised. It shifts into 2nd without double clutching, but there is a slight grind. Owner concedes it needs work.

The owner is asking $6.7K and was clear that there was room to negotiate.

I'm approaching this as a learning experience, but is there an offer to be made here? I feel like this truck *might* only need a little work but the offer I'd want to make might be insultingly low...then again, there might be a chance to pick up a truck at a reasonable value...

The 109 on E-bay is local, but too encumbered. I'd have not leverage as a buyer. Might still look to get some more exposure under my belt, but there's not chance to buy.

[Eric W S]

The bulkhead is rusted through. Frames rust from the inside out. It needs more than "some" work.

It's a used car. Nothing more nothing less. Would buy a honda with a bad transmission and major rust if you wanted to enjoy it right away? A rover is no different. Get over the fact that's its a rover.

Price a rebuilt transmission from our hosts. Then price the appropriate repair panels. Then surf over to Pangolin4x4.com and review what it takes to properly repair a bulkhead that is going to last. Or price a D-90 bulkhead for a 2.5 petrol form our hosts.

Counter 2k if you want to invest in costly and lengthy repairs.

[Jeff Aronson]

Some questions, Nick...

1. Why couldn't you crawl underneath and whack away at the frame? If it was because you weren't dressed for it, plan on dressing differently next time you look at a Series Land Rover. If the owner would not let you, walk away.

2. It's possible that the owner has not added gear oil to the transmission and that's why it shifted hard. Low oil will cause that symptom. Of course, if it's run for a long time with low oil, that's not good for the life of the transmission, either. Next time, bring a 1/2" wrench with you, crawl underneath the left side of the car, find the transmission, look up and you'll see a bolt head. Remove the bolt. Ideally, oil will drip out on you. If not, stick a finger in the hole. If it get wet with thick oil, good. If not, walk away or reduce your offer substantially. It's a sign of poor maintenance.

3. The area where the floor boards meet the toe boards becomes a structural part of the car. Yes, a welder can put new panels, available from Rovers North, onto the bulkhead. Next time, from the engine side, jab a screwdriver into the upper bulkhead. If you feel softness in the metal, either walk away or reduce your offer substantially. If the owner won't let you do it, walk away. Think of if this way - if it looks "no worse than my junky Trooper," why would you call your Trooper "junky?" If it's anything more than surface rust, it will be a project car for you in the future.

Finally, $6,700 for a car with a rust emerging in critical areas is too much money, unless you have a trust fund that's doing well in today's market. It may be a worthwhile car - certainly an entertaining one - but it's not well priced for its condition.

Keep up your good work in assessing Series Land Rovers. You're learning a lot on the fly - I'm impressed!

Jeff

[NickDawson]

Well, I have to count this weekend as a success. I decided to pass on the rover in question - but getting out and looking at a truck in person was a great eduction. And going forward I'm going to try my best to find a willing "Rover Whisperer" :D to go with me. I felt very well prepared from just the short time since I've re-joined this board, but was also aware that I'm still not a totally educated buyer.

Some take aways

I'm even more excited about the decision to finally find a rover than before - being back in a rover really reignited the passion
I like RHD. I understand the issues and concerns - particularly about the british imports, but its something I like. I'm not going to seek them out specifically, but its a plus for me
I'm gaining a better appreciation for what matters and what does not. For instance, a paint job is nice but isn't of any real value compared to a rust free vehicle


It's a used car. Nothing more nothing less. Would buy a honda with a bad transmission and major rust if you wanted to enjoy it right away? A rover is no different. Get over the fact that's its a rover.


Well, frankly, I don't know which is why I am asking so many (too many?) questions. I've never bought a vintage car and for that matter I dont think I've ever looked closely at any car that is this old. Part of me would expect some rust on a 20+ year old honda - again, I'll endevor to find an expert compainion on my next outting.


Think of if this way - if it looks "no worse than my junky Trooper," why would you call your Trooper "junky?"

Finally, $6,700 for a car with a rust emerging in critical areas is too much money, unless you have a trust fund that's doing well in today's market.

Keep up your good work in assessing Series Land Rovers. You're learning a lot on the fly - I'm impressed!

Jeff

Thanks again Jeff for your patience and help!

We call the trooper "junky" in a loving way :D, in retrospect its not a fair word to use. Its our current 'beater car' and has no real appeal for us other than being a large copacity car that we used on weekends during our house remodel. That said - your point is well taken.

And as for the trust fund - if you find mine, let me know :D Just a working stiff until I win the lottery :)

Finally, one more question. What is the best way to consider a truck sight unseen? For instance, if I find one on the West coast are there people on the board who might be willing to take a look for me and give me their opinion? I'd repay the favor however I could; but I don't think its realistic for me to fly somewhere just for a test drive... Also, as discussed on the previous thread, there are some UK exporters. Pretty sure I'm not ready to go down the route, but I am curious what the experience has been like for those who have... thinking about a fall back should my search not turn up anythig in a reasonable period of time.

Thanks yet again for everyone's willingness to help and for putting up with my endless stream of questions!

-N

[Jeff Aronson]

Nick,

You're doing a great job on your search. You've thought through your preferences, made your decisions, and have shown that you can look past the cosmetics.

My strong sense is that there are many Forum participants who would help you assess a car, in person or from afar. You're developing a checklist for determining the right car for you -and as noted earlier, there are several excellent ones published by clubs and Land Rover boards. Using those will help you avoid cars that will cost too much in the long run.

Remember, too, that there are Land Rover clubs [see the Rovers North Links page] all over the US and Canada. Members are very likely to be knowledgeable enthusiasts who will help you assess a car for purchase.

The "sight unseen" stories published in the Rovers North News are a mix of good news and bad news. No one has submitted a magic formula.

That said, the Rovers North For Sale list here is a start. Rovers North knows the established Land Rover specialists throughout the continent who might provide a good source of leads for you. Indeed, often they assess the condition of the cars for their owner/enthusiasts, so they can provide you with useful information. They gain nothing by smoothing over the condition of a rough car.

Have fun looking.

Jeff

[thixon]

Hello Nick, and welcome to the board.

I've been reading you posts, but havnt chimed in yet.

Don't listen to a thing Jeff and greenmeanie have to say. They don't know a darn thing about rovers! :D (to be read with extremely heavy sarcasm, and the understanding that its a totally false statment).

Seriously though, Green and Jeff have given good advice, and have you on the right track. Also, I'm fully aware that neither of them need me to confirm their good work!

I have a couple questions for you. First, how are your mechanical skills? The price range your hunting in will get you a nice enough truck, but its going to need a few things. Heck, even a really nice full resto will likely need a few things.

Next question. Can you weld and do light metal fab work? If so, then don't let the trucks you see with the iffy bulkheads run you off. Take a ton of photos of the trucks you look at, and post them here. There are many of us that post to this board that can walk you through a bulkhead repair, and we'd be happy to give you opinions on how much work you'd be staring at on a given prospect. If metal works not your thing, then keep searching for a truck with a good bulkhead. They exist, I promise.

If you find one with a great bulkhead, but a crappy frame (not likely, but possible), don't fret there either. A frame swap is a fun project, and a good learning experience for someone just getting into rovers. Its not impossible, or even hard.

What I'm getting at is that you should approach this as an opportunity to improve your skills, and have fun working on the thing. You'll be working on it sooner or later, and its half the fun. If you're already a good mechanic than all the better.

Also remember that if the items that need attention (frame and bulkhead) are'nt really bad, you dont have to do them right away. You can drive the truck and enjoy it for a while until you feel ready.

In the meantime, keep looking. The right one will come along. Keep posting photos, and you'll bet plenty of help here.

[NickDawson]

Hello Nick, and welcome to the board.

Green and Jeff have given good advice, and have you on the right track.


Thanks for the warm welcome - its been an education with advice from Jeff and Greenmeaning (among others) leading the charge...



First, how are your mechanical skills? The price range your hunting in will get you a nice enough truck, but its going to need a few things. Heck, even a really nice full resto will likely need a few things.

Good question - Honestly I've not done much automotive work. But, I'm very mechanically inclined. The basic systems make sense to me and I'm no stranger to turning a wrench. It may not sound applicable but my father and I remodeled my current home ourselves (with a lot of help from my wife too :D)... The series truck is going to be for me but we are looking at this like a similar project. We'd both like to learn some basics and feel like we are capable of changing plugs, oil etc... with a manual and some guidance, things like brakes, clutch, hoses, etc don't feel out of reach. Rebuilding a transmission does.



Next question. Can you weld and do light metal fab work? If so, then don't let the trucks you see with the iffy bulkheads run you off.

I've spot-welded with arc welders, but nothing with hot gas. Could I slap a panel on something, yeah...but a new frame is out of my league. One of the major reasons has more to do with work space - I dont have a garage.

I'm glad you didn't post this while I was still close to the 76 - it might have pushed me over the edge :D



Also remember that if the items that need attention (frame and bulkhead) are'nt really bad, you dont have to do them right away. You can drive the truck and enjoy it for a while until you feel ready.

Glad you made that point. While I don't want anything that's going to literally split in 1/2 on a trail, I can see what you mean. A rust hole in a floor board (and I understand that rovers are different structurally) 1976 Chevy pickup wouldn't stop me from driving it around town while doing yard work on the weekends (ask me how I know :) )

Thanks again thixon - looking forward to keeping the group posted as my search progresses. And as an update along those lines, I'm seeing a lot of stuff on ebay and other sites in various places around the country that suggest something with a good engine and no body/frame issues go for a lot more than my $5-6K target.... That at least helps me calibrate and know what the value of the work I might put into a vehicle in lesser condition is.