Found One!

[NickDawson]

Hey Gang,
Just thought I'd share some good news-
I found a Rover in North Carolina that, baring any major issues, is about to have a new home in Virginia!

Its a 1972 III LHD that appears to be in wonderful condition.

I say "appears" because I am buying it sight unseen, with a catch. When the current owner and I spoke, she mentioned that Tony Kipling from Old English Cars had been doing the service. I know Tony's name as a very reputable mechanic and restoration guy in the area - he is British and specializes in trucks from his native country.

The sale is contingent on an inspection from another guy I trust a lot, Sean Jones from Blueridge Rover Works - I wanted an impartial opinion and Sean has worked on a friend's series in the past.

Assuming it vets out, then I feel great about the price and even better about the the truck and couldn't wait to share the excitement with the "gurus" here.

It felt somewhat bizarre to buy something so important sight unseen - but I had heard many other stories here about other folks doing the same. Finger's crossed that the inspection won't reveal anything that will present conflict.. but I think I'm back in the Rover world!

I'll say "thank you" now to everyone who offered advice during the search...but know this: I'll be asking a lot more questions as I learn and grow with this thing :D You arn't done with me yet...

Pics here:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3566/3481649466_671a01fe75.jpg

The rest of the set - as taken by the current owner
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/sets/72157617313714105/

I am curious what people think about the appearance of slights surface (is there such thing?) rust on the transfer tunnel

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3631/3480862895_3dd4da8ccf.jpg?v=0

p.s. I think a guy with a shop called "Blueridge Rover Works" knows what to look for - but anything specific I should request? Compression test for instance?

[LaneRover]

The surface rust doesn't look bad, definitely have the mechanic check the footwells as those look like brand spanking new rubber floormats which could be a nice addition or put there to hide rusty footwells or bad repairs to the footwells.

Brent

[NickDawson]

The surface rust doesn't look bad, definitely have the mechanic check the footwells as those look like brand spanking new rubber floormats which could be a nice addition or put there to hide rusty footwells or bad repairs to the footwells.

Brent

Thanks Brent - me search as taught me a lot about rust foot wells - they are usually a sign of a rotted bulkhead :D

[Jeff Aronson]

Sean writes well about Land Rovers and clearly has a lot of personal experience with them. Smart move on your part to have an independent inspection. And you know the long list of recommended points for inspection, too.

Good luck - I hope it works out for you. Don't hink those are original wheels - which does not matter.

Jeff

[rwollschlager]

Good luck - I hope it works out for you. Don't hink those are original wheels - which does not matter.

Jeff

I might be mistaken but im pretty sure those are new goodyear G90's on wolf rims most likley sourced from George at RDS. IMO thats a good thing. Many people upgrade to those rims later on anyway.

-Rob

[NickDawson]

Thanks all
Curious what other things stick out as being "different"?

For instance, the mirrors look like defender mirrors to me - or am I mistaken?

I've seen some IIIs with the door hinges painted and others without. LRFAQ.org seems moot on the point.

[Broadstone]

It has been painted so check for body filler! In the rear tub sides where the seatbelt mounting system causes corrosion, also at the bulkhead top corners. Good luck!!

[JayGoss]

+1 for Sean Jones- he's a good, honest guy. Good luck- and I hope it turns out to be a nice one. If not don't worry- there will be others.

[Eric W S]

It has been painted so check for body filler! In the rear tub sides where the seatbelt mounting system causes corrosion, also at the bulkhead top corners. Good luck!!

Looks like a 20 footer to me. Why would you paint the rubber plugs on the trans cover? Trim has been painted as well.

All Series trucks look good in pics. I'd still never buy one sight unseen... First thing you don't do if you want to keep you $$$...

[SafeAirOne]

Thanks all
Curious what other things stick out as being "different"?

Anti-burst door latches

Chassis outrigger repairs

Side step welded to outrigger instead of being bolted/screwed to it (I can't remember which)

Registration plate (in dash tray) from a vehicle first registered between 8/74 and 7/75 ;)


Since your state and the seller's state touch, I'd spend the money on a tank of gas and see the vehicle in person before I part with my money. Lots of relatively recent asthetic stuff--Shiny new paint, brand new wheels and tires, floor mats, front leaf springs, bright new galvanizing (or silver paint on the galvanized stuff--I can't tell) and (possibly) new upholstry. These could be red flags or it could mean nothing.

Of course, If you're getting a great deal on in it may not matter one way or another.

[Bertha]

A shiny paint job over rust holes in various parts and what appears to be a patched up series 3 frame is exactly the truck you do NOT want to buy. It appears you are going for the shiny paint job special-exactly what you have been advised not to do. Hopefully the mechanical will check out for you, at least you will have that going for you, however plan on needing a frame shortly down the road, if in fact that truck still has its original one with patches on it.

[NickDawson]

Appreciate all the insight as usual folks.

the deal we've struck leaves me with a nice out should the local mechanic see anything that concerns him - as we all know its hard to tell from pictures.

The deposit I gave the current owner is less than what a weekend and 16 hour round trip drive w/ a rented trailer would have cost me - plus its clear that I still don't know what I'm looking at so I'd need a local expert anyway. At least this way I don't have to take off work or lose a weekend.

Bertha - curious where you see patches on the frame so I can learn what to look for. Again, pictures arn't great, but it looked better to me than many I've seen in person recently.

At the end of the day, if Sean feels good about the frame and engine then I have to decide what I think about the rest of the criticisms here. The deal was for a price I felt good about so it may stand.

I've looked at trucks that are supposedly in good mechanical shape and running well but that need a body overhaul - even for the difference in cash, I had to ask myself I were up to the job. Without a garage and spraying tools, I decide that a good paint job was worth something to me - so long as its not masking serious issues (again, something I decided I was willing to pay a professional to help me diagnose).

anyway...guess I'll see what pans out

[galen216]

I have to be the devil's advocate here. People are so quick to say a frame is junk. Frames can be nursed along for a long time with a good welder.

That being said, I wouldn't pay over $6000 for a truck that does not have a galvanized frame on the East Coast.

Oh and I bought my truck sight unseen for $3500 with no pre-inspection and it is a great Series. It can happen. Deals are out there, bide your time and don't be in a hurry.

[49coe]

From the picture it appears that there is a riveted on patch on the passenger side of the tub where one of the seat belt supports rotted the aluminum out. Also I can't see the original rivets where the other supports would have been so I would assume that those holes/possible other rotted out spots have been bondoed over. Not the end of the world, actually pretty much par for the course for a Series III, but also not a great thing. I have a '72 as well and have ended up replacing the tub with a Series II because of the rot that those seat belt supports cause. They turned my tub into swiss cheese on the sides and under the rear seats.

[Eric W S]

I decide that a good paint job was worth something to me - so long as its not masking serious issues (again, something I decided I was willing to pay a professional to help me diagnose).


What's you're definition of a good paint job? Because that rover doesn't have one...?

If 49 is right, then are you prepared to find another tub, replace it, and then repaint it to match the already craptacular existing paint job?

Add that to a dodgy frame and that's a 3k truck at best, less inspection fees..

[NickDawson]

As always I appreciate the constructive advice. Maybe the mechanic in NC will have something positive to say but it sounds like I'll get out for a few hundred and a slightly dented pride.

Thanks again gang
-N

[SeriesShorty]

Oh and I bought my truck sight unseen for $3500 with no pre-inspection and it is a great Series. It can happen. Deals are out there, bide your time and don't be in a hurry.

Ditto here, I paid $3000 sight unseen. After many phone calls, emails and photos, I had developed a good relationship with the buyer and my gut told me he was being honest with me. I went for it and my gut was right.

Sure, my truck needed some work but the only time he left me stranded was because I didn't change the coolant hoses when I knew good and darned well they were on their way out. I'm still in progress and taking it slowly. And I don't have any fancy equipment, welders and such. I'm working with just basic hand tools and a lot of courage and determination. AND I'm a 5' tall runt of a girl! :) So don't be so down on yourself, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to successfully own a Series.

[CliftonRover]

I think the truck looks alright. it will need door tops, and maybe some little things, but it woes not appear to be too hacked together. the frame looks like it could be ok. you should have it waxoyled right away, or just plan on having to do a frame swap. its likely worth 6000 if the motor and tranny are ok. you should have your guy drive it and make sure reverse and first gear are ok aka not too loud.

[Bertha]

I have to be the devil's advocate here. People are so quick to say a frame is junk. Frames can be nursed along for a long time with a good welder.



Not series 3 frames

[Bertha]

Appreciate all the insight as usual folks.


Bertha - curious where you see patches on the frame so I can learn what to look for. Again, pictures arn't great, but it looked better to me than many I've seen in person recently.



outrigger in pic looks to have a patch on it.

[Bertha]

As always I appreciate the constructive advice. Maybe the mechanic in NC will have something positive to say but it sounds like I'll get out for a few hundred and a slightly dented pride.

Thanks again gang
-N

No need for wounded pride. This is all part of the process-we have all been there. I just dont want to see you end up with a hunk-o-$#%t that will make you regret buying your first Land Rover. I will say(again)that based on what you have laid out in the past threads on what you are looking for/to do with the truck, you may be better off upping your $ to a 10K truck. In that range you should be able to find one with a galve frame at the very least.

[NickDawson]

No need for wounded pride. This is all part of the process-we have all been there. I just dont want to see you end up with a hunk-o-$#%t that will make you regret buying your first Land Rover. I will say(again)that based on what you have laid out in the past threads on what you are looking for/to do with the truck, you may be better off upping your $ to a 10K truck. In that range you should be able to find one with a galve frame at the very least.

Thanks - I agree, the last thing I want is a problem Rover that will sour the experience.

$10K is out of the question for us right now - but I'm beginning to believe that is realistic for a galvy frame and a truck that I would not be embarrassed to drive to work or park outside my house. ... need to think about what that means for me.

[vkjar]

WOW people are really picking this rover apart. Just from the photos if this rig came up for sale in my area it would be a real gem. Rovers were once numerous in my region now there are fewer and fewer. I had looked under a lot of them and all frames, bulks etc were cheese. Except of one which I would have bought but the seller was a prick!! so I passed on it Sight unseen is definately a fine line. It took me over 12 years...... (of looking on and off) to find my first truck and the one I bought, I bought pretty much sight unseen. I actually bought a plane ticket to go see it for the first time (and buy it) I then drove it home almost 600miles through the Canadian Rockies, but only after numerous emails and additional photos to the owner and his Rover Mech. The truck I considered prior to mine based on nice looking photos had more patches than a patchwork quilt plus crossmember rot and with an engine/drivetrain that looked as if they had been dipped in a tar pit. Why complain about the quality of the paint job, if it is not a show piece then who cares. looks better then faded paint with patches of bare aluminum IMO. yes it may need a few things here and there but correct me if I am wrong, Don't all series trucks need a few things here and there, thats why we love'em so much right. If it checks out that it is mechanically sound and the frame/bulkhead is solid and you think the price is fair when I would buy it. But if the frame is crap and the mechanicals need work when I would just keep the photos and keep looking. That comes from my experiences of looking for a series truck in my area.

[leafsprung]

I will reiterate because you keep digging up these eastern gems. Look west. Find something that you wont have to mess with. This one has a lot of rust and has clearly had even more in the past. Was just at an event with 20+ series rovers here on the west coast and there wasnt a rust hole among them.

[49coe]

I don't know if what Bertha is saying about series III frames being more rust prone than other frames is true or not, but my series III frame is what I would consider to be pretty solid despite having the outriggers replaced and I just replaced the rear crossmember. I realize that statement seems a bit contradictory, but to explain further, the outriggers take the brunt of everything the front tires throw at them, same for the rear crossmember(mine was also repeatedly dunked in sal****er by the PO putting his boat in the water). I don't think that it is unreasonable that these areas of the frame can be in less than ideal condition, but the rest of the frame still be sound. Mine is and I know that it is because I looked inside it when I replaced the rear crossmember. Of course it was also filled with a ton of Waxoyl, but the point is that I don't think that damaged outriggers/rear crossmember automatically equals dead frame. Is a galvy chassis the best solution? Of course it is for any rover, but if the frame rails are in good condition, the repairs have been done well, and you take care of it, it can be perfectly serviceable. Just my 2c.

[Jim-ME]

I would say that if you have a knowledgeable person physically look at it and check it out and it will meet your needs then go ahead. Most importantly you will know it's faults and therefore you can make an informed decision to buy or pass. I don't know the price of the latest one but it doesn't look all that bad to me. The most important part is having someone you trust give you an honest assessment. A perfect Series Rover appears to be out of your realistic price range. I say let someone look at it before you move ahead or pass.
Jim

[Eric W S]

WOW people are really picking this rover apart. Just from the photos if this rig came up for sale in my area it would be a real gem. Rovers were once numerous in my region now there are fewer and fewer. I had looked under a lot of them and all frames, bulks etc were cheese. Except of one which I would have bought but the seller was a prick!! so I passed on it Sight unseen is definately a fine line. It took me over 12 years...... (of looking on and off) to find my first truck and the one I bought, I bought pretty much sight unseen. I actually bought a plane ticket to go see it for the first time (and buy it) I then drove it home almost 600miles through the Canadian Rockies, but only after numerous emails and additional photos to the owner and his Rover Mech. The truck I considered prior to mine based on nice looking photos had more patches than a patchwork quilt plus crossmember rot and with an engine/drivetrain that looked as if they had been dipped in a tar pit. Why complain about the quality of the paint job, if it is not a show piece then who cares. looks better then faded paint with patches of bare aluminum IMO. yes it may need a few things here and there but correct me if I am wrong, Don't all series trucks need a few things here and there, thats why we love'em so much right. If it checks out that it is mechanically sound and the frame/bulkhead is solid and you think the price is fair when I would buy it. But if the frame is crap and the mechanicals need work when I would just keep the photos and keep looking. That comes from my experiences of looking for a series truck in my area.

Paint is important depending on where you live. In Chicago, I'd never even consider getting a rover with a suspect paint job - rust.

I think everyone is picking apart the rover is because the OP has no experience. He asked for help and I think it's better everyone is being critical than cavalier. A 6k mistake that takes another 6k to fix is a tough pill to swallow.

[leafsprung]

for 6K you should be able to find a truck that has no rust issues, end of story. It may have other mechanical/cosmetic probs but shouldnt have rust.

[vkjar]

One thing no one has mentioned is why the seller has no photos of the engine compartment or the drivetrain, he has photos of most everything else yet No Engine bay photos. Most of the nit picking seems to be with the body. yes rust and galvanic corrosion is an issue on these trucks but from what i see and have seen in the past (in my area) this one is better than most. Over and above finding a good body I would rather have clean solid mechanicals/electrics etc, things that actually make the truck go.

[NickDawson]

I would rather have clean solid mechanicals/electrics etc, things that actually make the truck go.

Thats been a top criteria - could not agree more. If I wasn't having an independent inspection then I would not have have even contacted the CO without those pics. When we spoke she said she'd take some (along with the drivers side, which is also undocumented) - but, given that she was more than willing to let it be inspected told me that she thinks its in good shape.

She has outsourced all the work on it - it may not have crossed her mind to take engine compartment pics. Or...maybe she omitted them for a reason ... I'll know pretty soon (fingers crossed)

[leafsprung]

I would rather have clean solid mechanicals/electrics etc, things that actually make the truck go.

Then your priorities are misplaced. Mechanicals and electrics are very cheap and easy to fix compared with rust. An entire brand new wiring harness is about 300 bucks, a good running used 2.25 motor is $500 to 1000. Both could be installed in a single weekend. You cant do that with a frame or firewall. Corrosion is more time consuming and more expensive to fix properly than mechanical/electrical issues. I would pay 6K for a completely rust free truck with no motor or wiring at all, before I would pay 6 grand for a rotbox. Im giving you the benefit of a lot of land rover experience here. Its up to you to listen.

[NickDawson]

Then your priorities are misplaced. Mechanicals and electrics are very cheap and easy to fix compared with rust. An entire brand new wiring harness is about 300 bucks, a good running used 2.25 motor is $500 to 1000. Both could be installed in a single weekend. You cant do that with a frame or firewall. Corrosion is more time consuming and more expensive to fix properly than mechanical/electrical issues. I would pay 6K for a completely rust free truck with no motor or wiring at all, before I would pay 6 grand for a rotbox. Im giving you the benefit of a lot of land rover experience here. Its up to you to listen.

This is where I'm probably failing myself by not being thorough in my responses. I hope I said *one* of my top criteria - but if not, then I misspoke...perhaps without thinking, its been a long day ;)

From what I have learned from everyone on this forum in a short time, I would agree that a rust free, solid, straight vehicle is another top priority.

What I wanted to avoid were listings that suggested a good frame but an engine in buckets in someone garage - it may be true that you can drop in a running 2.25 in a weekend...and part of me would love that project... but I have to be realistic and balance both priorities. Something that runs well enough to drive it home (and hopefully around town) and a frame and chassis that won't cause heartache and a distant 3rd, something the neighbors won't try and have towed when I'm not looking ... a tall order at my price point :D

I am listening and learning - and the last thing I want to do is frustrate my helpers here. So I appreciate the patience.

I have no problem playing hard ball, but right now me under a truck with a hammer and screwdriver solicits more worried looks from owners than it does confidence in myself. Thats why I made the sale contingent on an inspection from a guy I trust.

That said, I'm going to be honest. If he says "hey Nick, you over paid by $500 and theres bondo on the door but its solid and should be a good ride...." well then live and learn but I'll be a happy owner and will look forward to the support when I start trying to change the oil :D

If he says "run away" - then I've learned another lesson, right?

Its important enough to me, that we are trying to change our schedules to get down there this weekend - the saga will continue and I'm excited to continue to report about it here.

[leafsprung]

Sorry to be a party pooper, but no inspection is needed, you can tell in the photos its had a significant amount of corrosion. Everything has been or is rusty: doors, tub, frame, firewall. Keep looking.

[rwollschlager]

something the neighbors won't try and have towed when I'm not looking .

They will get over it! When i dragged my 72 SIII 88 home my neighbors would walk past my house and asking me "what in the hell is that?" and tell me how bad it made my yard look. After they made that last comment i put it up on blocks and waited to see their reaction when they came strolling by again. I figured they put up with our other two rovers a third couldnt be a problem, i guess i was wrong...

[vkjar]

I don't disagree with anything anyone has said, but if you look back to what I first stated that I am basing my experience off of looking for a series truck in MY AREA. Where they have become scarce, and are now rarely seen on the roads. Most have likely moved west or to parts yards or somewhere else.

There seems to be an endless turn over of series trucks in the eastern US and also in the west. So with that in mind it is easy to say that there will be another one around the corner. You folks are lucky to have those chances. In my search over the years (12+) in looking off and on for the right truck for me I had the chance to look under most of the ones that came up for sale or that I knew of. There is a reason why I did not have a series truck earlier. I then took my search outside of Alberta and looked to both the east and west coasts for vehicals.

I have only seen two galvanized frames on a series truck in my area, Mine! and a 109 rebuild.

I kid you not most of you will choke at what series trucks go for north of the boarder. The one I mentioned with the patch work frame and a driveline that looked as if it had been dipped in tar, not to mention the paint brush paint job, missing parts, etc etc oh but it did have a pertronix ingition. The seller wanter 6K for it :eek: I would not have paid $500.

Vehicals here also have to pass a very rigid inspection especially out of province (not sure what it is like in the US) before being able to register or insure it, everything has to work properly not half assed. So in my case things that make the truck go were more important than a perfect body. It all depends on what is most important to you.

A rust free solid frame and firewall is a given because if one does their homework it is the first thing mentioned always. I am talking about the rest of the vehical

[jopa]

Look further, better trucks are out there...Try this one...rust free in Colorado for $5300 with a tropical top and full soft top sale-yyjue-1110166993@craigslist.org -John in NY

[NickDawson]

Thanks again for the help and suggestions!

I'm still going to drive down (16 hours round trip, blurg!) and take it to Sean Jones to have inspected. If for nothing else, I need the education. With a few exceptions, the posts that say "there are better ones out there" just don't help me see what wrong with the one I'm looking at. I need the first hand education.

[Apis Mellifera]

It's missing some interior pieces and the rear spare mount. The rear lights aren't correct. It appears to have had the frame and rear tub patched. I suspect the foot wells have been patched and I'd bet there's a bondo'ed hole next to the accelerator. That said, it's not a bad looking truck and if it's mechanically sound, it should last many years as is. It has about a grand worth of wheels, tires, and seats.

My frame is garbage, much, much worse than that one, but my truck runs well and is safe, so I drive and enjoy it. It really depends on what you want. That truck looks fine to me. It's by no means perfect, but it's respectable and should provide plenty of smiles (until you need to R&R something like the steering relay). If there were a single Series for sale around here, it would be in worse condition and priced higher.

Regardless of want you pay, could you buy it, learn LRs, and then sell it and at least break even? If so, go for it. If you're looking to restore one, keep looking.

[NickDawson]

Just became a moot point - current owner has decided not to sell.

I know many of you will think thats a blessing in disguise - and perhaps it was. However, there was a lot to like there and I'm a little disapointed...but the search continues...

[adkrover]

I think the point is that it was a rot box that had been superficially fixed up. Like a rat trap house with new paint and carpet. It is indeed far easier to replace an axle and transmission than to replace a floor and bulkhead. Because....... to fix the floor and bulkhead you need to pull almost every other part of the truck.

[NickDawson]

I think the point is that it was a rot box

Right now, thats a bit like poking me with a sharp stick :(

It very well may be true, but what we *saw* was something that looked like it was in good shape and ready to ride around town in during the weekends. The paint look good to me and the interior looked in good shape. Now, the fact that she's no longer selling may have everything to do with my "inspection clause" that might have turned up something big...

Still, saying it was a rot box does not do a thing to tell me what to look for in the next set of photos I see. I'm trying to be a more educated buyer, but need some specifics...

I saw welds on the seatbelt posts and one body patch - is it just the experience that teaches folks that either of those two things indicate a rusted out car?

I saw the rust around the transmission tunnel - might be reasonable to assume that it would extend to the toe wells ... but again, is it just experience that suggest that? What if they had been repaired well? Doesn't seem like a reason to rule out a truck, or am I missing something there?

[SafeAirOne]

Still, saying it was a rot box does not do a thing to tell me what to look for in the next set of photos I see.

You can't tell if it was a "rot box" by the photos. You know that there is some rust in typical places but you need to see it in person or have it inspected by a knowledgable individual to see the extent of any corrosion, in my opinion.



I saw the rust around the transmission tunnel - might be reasonable to assume that it would extend to the toe wells

The rust around the transmission tunnel isn't that kind of rust--It's galvanic or "dissimilar metal" corrosion, which occurs when metals of different electrical potential come together. The tunnel cover is aluminum and the bulkhead is steel. This type of corrosion can often be found on the outside bottoms of the doors (the inner doorframes are steel, the skin is aluminum), and on North-American series IIIs, the body sides above the rear wheels (where the steel seatbelt anchors are riveted to the rear tub). That's where the patch is on the right side on the rover in your photos.

The other kind of rust is just plain old iron oxide found on the pure steel parts like the inside doortops, the entire bulkhead (firewall) including footwells, the doorposts, and chassis (frame) and chassis outriggers and crossmembers.

[adkrover]

Sorry about the sharp stick. I suspect you're right that the seller may have had concerns about the inspection clause.

The thing is that a rover exterior is mostly aluminum which doesn't rust. Therefore, on the surface it is easy to make it look good with a fresh paint job. For some reason, whether it's a form of electrolysis caused by dissimilar metals (steel and aluminum) or just that rover used cheap steel I don't know but the steel rusts out very quickly once it gets started. If you can find ex military truck you may have better luck as the MOD coated the steel to prevent the rust. Otherwise, you need to look for a vehicle from the far south (not near the coast as salt spray is bad) or the desert. If a rover has visible rust on the interior door structure, that's a pretty good sign that there is more to come.

I work on houses and have always found that it is better to purchase a house with a solid foundation and good framing that may need to be gutted and have all of it's mechanicals done over than to get a house that someone has spent a great deal of time and money to put new paint, carpet, cabinets etc into but has 60 year old plumbing and is sinking into the ground. The reason is that to make the proper repairs, you will have to rip out all of that new carpet that you just paid for by purchasing the house.

If you want to have a nice rover that will last you for a long time and have a good resale value, you need to start with one that has a solid frame and good steel. Don't be distracted by clean body skin and shiny paint. They all have good body skins unless they are obviously dented and a new paint job is cheap. Then you can start to tackle all of the other issues that it may have like leaky gears and weak axles.

Someone else here suggested that it is better to purchase a truck with a galvanized frame and fresh bulkhead without a motor at all and I agree. There are lots of good used parts out there that you can trade for to build up your truck.

[Jeff Aronson]

Nick,

While I was writing this post, ADKRover posted very sage advice!

Land Rovers have different types of corrosion. The rust in steell we're all familiar with affects Rovers as it does on any old car. Generally speaking, rust begins inside and then extends outside. That's why frame rust is an issue; more often than not, the rust starts inside the frame box so that by the time you see it, it's no longer "surface rust." That's why you bring a hammer and screwdriver to the inspection. You're not trying to poke holes, but you are looking the see the extent of any rust.

Land Rover frames can be patched several times, and structural pieces like rear crossmembers and front "horns" can be purchased and welded in by a skilled welder. However, a rotting frame is hidden from view - often by a nice paint job on the body of the car.

The other steel pieces on the car are the bulkhead [firewall, toeboards, dash, windshield supports], the frames of the doors, the radiator panel ["breakfast'], and any plates riveted onto the alloy body to provide seat belt anchorages [seat box, rear tub of Series III's or aftermarket installations]. All of these are replaceable or repairable, but that will require time, money and skills - but it's all doable.

The other type of corrosion is galvanic, the result chemical action between dissimilar metals. That can happen when steel bolts hold pieces of aluminum alloy together. That's another reason that you see through "rust" at the seat belt anchorage points - in addition to rusting because they're steel, those plates can suffer from corrosion because they're steel on aluminum.

The good news for you is that you're becoming far more sophisticated in assessing the condition of a possible purchase. Even if you don't plan on driving the car very much, you want to know its condition before purchase so you can determine how much you'll need to spend over time to keep the car in good shape. You WILL want to drive the car a lot more than you think - they're quite addictive.

What a lot of people here are urging is that you buy the best "platform" - frame, suspension, bulkhead - possible. The drivetrain is very durable and far easier for the conscientious, patient owner to learn how to maintain and repair than is the welding of a frame or bulkhead. I had my Rover for over 75,000 miles and several years before it got its first paint; in 18 years of ownership, it's only had paint jobs twice [both times because of accidents with wandering wild animals]. My second Land Rover has not been painted since its manufacture in 1966 - no one in the Land Rover community cares :).

Keep searching and posting your finds. Everyone here wants you to enter the Land Rover community!

Jeff

[NickDawson]

Thanks SafeAirOne, adkrover, Jeff Aronson - those posts are VERY helpful!

I understand the galvanic reaction all too well (don't ask), and I knew that the bodies were Al and the frames steel - but I had no idea that there were other parts involved in the equation. Thats very good to know.

Here are some take aways and my reaction - am I on track?

Pictures can't tell us much, but do hold clues. In this case, seeing galvanic corrosion spots suggests that there is a systemic problem.
paint is pretty but pointless - I get that intrinsically...but I guess I need to ask this: anyone have a clue what a body shop charges to spray a rover? How much of the prep can I do (sanding, etc) to reduce the expense? I'm not saying that I'm entirely superficial...but realistically if I buy something with a great frame and get it looking real pretty, is that within my price range?
Frames are key - I get that but still pretty sure I can't tell that without a first hand inspection from an expert. That rules out buying a truck on the west coast unless someone I trust (from this forum for instance) is available for inspection. Not ruling that out by any means, just part of the logistics to consider (along with shipping)
drive train and engines are usually solid - good to know b/c I'm still firm on the criteria that it has to run well. I understand that engines might be cheap and available, but I'm just not capable out buying a frame and tub and putting a motor in and getting any enjoyment out of the truck this summer... too much for this novice :DSo here's the next challenge :D (I do have a day job, I promise)

Below are some pictures from a truck that is being touted as a straight, solid frame with a good motor but in need of serious body work. It comes from a name that a lot of folks around here would know/trust. Its in the $5.5K range, so assuming my budget doesn't grow (and in this economy, how could it?) I'm still fixed at $8K

1) I'm seeing nothing but rust - am I mistaken? Does this appear to be in good condition to anyone else?

2) is it reasonable to think that with my own elbow grease that my remaining $2.5K I can spruce it up? I've started some calculations based on the RN catalog, so I know what fancy upholstery costs, but the my nagging paint question is still out there... then I have to think about tires, tops, etc...but maybe those things wait a year or two.

3) for that matter - what would *you* do to it (assuming I'm wrong about #1)

4) general reactions (including the breather being off the engine and in the back)

The entire set:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/sets/72157617516009384/

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3588/3488142921_445f6f46c2.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3641/3488957990_6afcd90fea.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3416/3488143027_1bcb47f322.jpg?v=0

[NickDawson]

Am I learning anything?
I look at this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Land-Rover-Series-3-88-SWB_W0QQitemZ170325889729QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Car s_Trucks?hash=item170325889729&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A317|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318) and see rusted foot wells as well as galvanic corrosion on doors. So that alone should tell me that its likely to have some deep seated rust issues elsewhere like the frame?

[Eric W S]

Solid huh?

First impressions from the pics attached:
1. Wiring needs to be sorted.
2. New fuel pump? Why? (Newer pumps can be problematic)
3. Dash is completely hacked up with a poorly done aux panel and a glove box? (Just poorly done overall; holes in the bulkhead could lead to rust)
4. Needs new seats (can get pricey and they are important; red looks terrible)
5. Springs are sagging (Solid huh? With rusted springs? It'll drive terrible)
6. Tie rod ends look old (It'll most likely steer like crap with old TRE; They are cheap and easy to replace so why haven't they been, it s a safety issue IMO)

After a quick look at the Flickr album, no real pics of the frame, Bulkhead or the drive train. Those are the only ones you need.

IMO, I'd offer no more than $2k for the truck. I wouldn't call that a solid truck by any means. It'll take 6k to get it to where you want it to be, without paint.

As far as paint, talk to body shops. There is no national average. I am having my 65 repainted panel by panel for around 4k. But that is stripped bare and brought to the body shop clean. Base/Clear. I was going to have a single coat done, but the price went up quite a bit.

[NickDawson]

Solid huh?


IMO, I'd offer no more than $2k for the truck. I wouldn't call that a solid truck by any means. It'll take 6k to get it to where you want it to be, without paint.


Thanks - that was my first reaction as well...a total mess.
I just needed to make sure I was on the right track... regardless of what the frame looks like, that appears to be a total nightmare.

That said - its also starting to confirm the $12+K price range I am seeing for decent trucks (IE "restorations" ) :(

[leafsprung]

Im going to say there isnt enough in terms of pictures to evaluate that truck, no good footwell or frame shots, no overall shots. Some shots of mostly meaningless detail. All the issues you can see are relatively minor considering the price. Does need a new suspension though. In general I like it better than the red one, but that could change with pics. There is a series three 88 in WA for 6K, wagon with a galv frame and new bulkhead. Might be ok. Its on craigslist, might be a good one to look over. I also have a 1966 3 door 109 with no rust issues or previous rust repairs in your price range. There are plenty of good trucks under 7K. Seriously. You havent even scratched the surface of the resources available to you.

[Clembs]

man that looks like a dog, or at least should be around 2,000-2,500. I bought mine this time last year for 4,000 and the guy was going to take 3,200. Mine needed shocks and springs but it had a RN galv frame and very good body just had been in a field so it needed a good detail. Take a look at my pics (if they show up). I have 6,000 total in mine and that is with new wheels and tires, rocky Mt. parabollic springs and Old man emu shocks, new exhaust, and a bumch of other stuff. I live in va/ nc and you can find them all over if you look.

[Eric W S]

Thanks - that was my first reaction as well...a total mess.
I just needed to make sure I was on the right track... regardless of what the frame looks like, that appears to be a total nightmare.

That said - its also starting to confirm the $12+K price range I am seeing for decent trucks (IE "restorations" ) :(

I really don't think there are that many decent trucks. A decent truck would be one from Ike, Lanny Clark, the Land Rover Ranch, or Timm Cooper. ECR and Brit Northwest on the second tier..

All rovers have issues. Solid ones have cheaper ones...

[greenmeanie]

Some comments:
Eric is pretty accurate about the first truck with pictures. The picture of the splash guard towards the end suggets footwells that have rust. If it is not through yet it is well on its way. The front frame horn shows perforation from rust so just walk away.

The second truck actually doesn't look too bad. The chassis looks pretty sound and between the waxoyl and that huge oil leak at least the back half has been well protected. The bulkhead looks like surface rust but I would ask for detail shots of the top corners, door posts and the footwells to be sure. Looking inside the engie bay the bulkhead looks pretty clean which is a good sign that it should be in good nick.

The paint on the inside is worn and looks original which is a good sign that the the owner isn't trying to hide stuff with a quick paint job. The body is stright and other than the odd dent looks pretty good. The doors are questionable so I would ask for more photos of the frames. In the grand scheme of things rot there is common and they are not difficult to replace so I wouldn't let that prevent purchase. Those tyres will be interesting on a DD commuter but that is up to personal preference and again they are easily swapped.

Some general comments would be:
When it comes to the steering the TRE's can be checked pretty easily. The thing that I would look at is the bars themselves. They are often bent, the clamps can be faulty and the tube itself rusts from the inside like the chassis and can fail catastrophically. You should inspect these on ANY truck you buy.

Seats. If you plan on this being a DD commuter put in good quality high backs and inertia belts. In heavy traffic this could save your life in a rear end shunt. There are several options out there that can be had from the scrappy. Jeep seats are an easy and cheap conversion.

Beware the MOD. Any ex MOD truck needs very, very careful inspection. That undercoat on the chassis may have worked very well for the first decade or two but as it ages it cracks and peels and traps water against the steel of the chassis. It is now rotting from the inside and outside. The stuff is a pig to remove too.

The other thing to find out is where and with whom the truck served. Ex RAF trucks are generally the best having lived their lives in a controlled and maintenance intensive environment. Beware ex Royal Marine trucks which have usually had the odd dip in the Atlantic or some other beach vacation. Beware ex Airborne trucks as the boys with the red berets have a bad habit of throwing them out of the back of Hercy birds. Bent and cracked chassis are common. An ex mod truck should have its service plate attached which will give its military reg #. Talk to the EMLRA before you buy one of these.

[NickDawson]

Re first truck: The front frame horn shows perforation from rust so just walk away.

When it comes to the steering the TRE's can be checked pretty easily. The thing that I would look at is the bars themselves. They are often bent, the clamps can be faulty and the tube itself rusts from the inside like the chassis and can fail catastrophically. You should inspect these on ANY truck you buy.

Seats. If you plan on this being a DD commuter put in good quality high backs and inertia belts.

Beware the MOD. Any ex MOD truck needs very, very careful inspection.

Edited to add - think I've gotten myself confused about which truck is which.
For my own sanity...
First truck = shiny red (the one off the market now)
Second = rusty $5.5K
Third = Green on Ebay.

More questions ...

re first truck: what is a "frame horn" ?
As for the seats on truck #2 - no question... first order of business (also because I think its the thing I could to on my own the most easily) would be to order seats and belts from RN and install them- so as far as I'm concerned, its part of the budget for that particular truck.
TREs - while I feel like I could spend a few weekends and figure out tire rod ends and maybe replace them, it also sounds like a big bag of hurt.... definitely not something we can buy and have my wife drive to the garden center next weekend...its going to be a project to get into driving condition (ok, that was a statement, not a question)
What tells you its military? the antenna on the side? - assumed we were talking about #2 - in retrospect I think you were referring to ebay green (#3)
what is EMLRA?Thanks as always!
-N

[greenmeanie]

Nick,
The frame horns are the front part of the chassis leg where the forward front spring mounting is located. The design of the drainage in the box frame here is poor and this tends to be one of the areas that gets soft first. Have a good look at where the front bumper mounts to the chassis and you'll be in the right area.

At your price range it is time and money well spent to go through the entire steering system. Overhaul any worn parts, lubricate and set it up properly and it will make one of the most significant changes in your enjoyment of how the truck drives. Buy the manual and it is not rocket science.

Military trucks have many guises. There are 88s, 109 GS, 109 FFR and 109 CL. More easily identified are the lightweight (See jac04's posts) and the big ugly 101 but that is rather outside the scope here.

EMLRA is the Ex Military Land Rover Association who are a club over in the UK. They are generally considerd to be the authority on ex MOD landies.

EMLRA (http://emlra.org/)

Their website will tell you all you need to know about identification, pros and cons.

[shortbutslow]

Nick -

First of all - kudos for finding the board and asking the questions. Any old car or truck has its specific set of "things" that can bite you and the more you know up front the better.

You are getting great advice here from people who know and use these trucks. From reading through the posts it seems you're going through the process of learning what to look for - not shiny paint but rust, mechanicals and other signs of work (and money) to come. One thing that hasn't been mentioned - if this is your first I would recommend driving one a bit so you know what you're getting into. They look great but compared to modern vehicles are relatively slow, noisy, ride hard, are tough to steer and basically are not for everyone. And hopefully you enjoy solving mysteries and like to do mechanical work on old trucks :)

I bought my first last year. Since it was not my first old car/truck I did a bunch of research on models, part availability, features, issues, improvements, etc. Then I looked at several and created a spreadsheet with features I wanted, known issues, and costs. Get some parts catalogs or go online and familiarize yourself with how much things are to replace. Do you care about an overdrive, lockout hubs, high compression head? You may if you want to take it on the highway. Most Slla transmissions are not synchronized in 1st and 2nd gear so you have to double clutch - is that a factor? If you plan to drive it in the winter look for a heater, if you plan to drive without the hard top you'll probably want a tailgate and maybe a soft top (soft tops are fairly expensive to add later).

As Ike says, start with a solid frame and firewall. In your price range you should be able to find a good solid truck - minimal rust, pretty straight body and good servicable mechanicals. And it may even look nice, but that should be at the bottom of the list.

PM me if you want - I'd be happy to share more of my newbie experiences. LRs are great fun but take your time at this stage - it will pay you back later.

Clay

[NickDawson]

I would recommend driving one a bit so you know what you're getting into. They look great but compared to modern vehicles are relatively slow, noisy, ride hard, are tough to steer and basically are not for everyone.
Clay

Clay - thanks!
Believe it or not, I have driven series trucks a fair amount for a guy who doesnt own one (and I grew up driving a tractor...not much different :) )

In regards to syncromesh - its one of the reasons I'm preferring (but not stuck on) IIIs... double clutching doesn't bother me, but doesnt excite me either. Its going to drive my wife nuts. I'm sure I'll be the driver 90% of the time, but she'll want to use it for those afore mentioned trips to the garden center.

I ordered the "Green Bible" this week and have been getting the RN catalog for years ... looking forward to reading the repair manual for some the procedures that have been discussed in this thread.

[Eric W S]

Clay - thanks!
Believe it or not, I have driven series trucks a fair amount for a guy who doesnt own one (and I grew up driving a tractor...not much different :) )

In regards to syncromesh - its one of the reasons I'm preferring (but not stuck on) IIIs... double clutching doesn't bother me, but doesnt excite me either. Its going to drive my wife nuts. I'm sure I'll be the driver 90% of the time, but she'll want to use it for those afore mentioned trips to the garden center.

I ordered the "Green Bible" this week and have been getting the RN catalog for years ... looking forward to reading the repair manual for some the procedures that have been discussed in this thread.

Transmissions can be swapped easily between a 2 and a 3. In fact you can swap a whole lot of stuff between them. :thumb-up:

[NickDawson]

Spoke with a guy a few hours from me who has 20 rovers on his property and specializes in engine swaps... for whatever reason...

He's got some options that sound like things this group would love. $3K for trucks that are solid, rust free, straight bodies but with virtually no paint and mostly non-running.

So, I source a motor (his GM rebuilds are pricey), and a transfer box (also needed) and get it painted.... sounds like for my budget I could get a really rover for $7-$8K. But honestly, I'm not skilled for that kind of work- I'll spend the rest the year just trying to get it running.

Thats when I fall for the shiny paint special again...

[jac04]

Lots of good advice here regarding buying an old Rover.
I'll chime in with some personal experience: Don't buy a vehicle that wasn't imported into the US to begin with. If you do (like I did :o ), you may find yourself needing parts that are difficult and/or very expensive to obtain. Late Series III vehicles (from the 80's) have things like different (metric) brake fittings, different stub axles/oil seals, and different axles than the older SIII vehicles sold new in the US.

[vkjar]

Not sure if you have seen this link to this page in your research but it gives a you a base line of what to look for when buying a series truck. not to mention all the other usefull info the website has.

http://www.lrfaq.org/Series/FAQ.S.look_for.html

The best thing to do like everyone has mentioned is take your time. Grab a pair of old work cloths and a mat/cardboard/carpet etc and a hammer and screwdriver and spent the time on your back getting dirty and oily going over every inch of the frame and bulkhead. (oh and don't forget something to cover your eyes and hair, I always seem to get a chunck of oily dirt in my eye and or hair when I am under my truck)

By spending the time on your back you will also get to see how bad the oil leaks are and where they may be comming from. Also something to consider are fluids leaking onto your brakes including the transmision parking brake these are very important areas to inspect and can and will be a safety hazard if contaminated.

These truck do leak oil so when you finally get one don't park it on your new brick driveway, or parking pad if you are concerned about oil stains on the ground.

The more trucks you look under and check out the more you will become familiar with the problem spots. and whaat a dog looks like and what a solid one looks like.

[bmohan55]

If I can offer any advice as one who had little knowledge of Series trucks but bought one anyways 7 months ago it's this:

Find out how often the truck has been ran recently.

Mine had only 20,000 on it and was rarely used for the last 15 years. Although it initially ran good my more frequent usage (believe me, you'll want to drive it at every oppertunity!) stressed alot of systems in it which one by one needed replaced. I spent a little over 2K on tires (15 year old bias-ply are not safe!), fuel lines, fuel pump, changing out all fluids, complete tune-up, alternator, battery, hi-lift, fire extinguisher, head light buckets and head lights, carb. re-build and probably many more things I've forgotten now.

I believe if a truck is ran more frequently most of this things would be already addressed, or it won't be running!

Anyways, that my newbe $0.02's.

Keep looking, I'm enjoying your hunt. The only thing more fun than looking for one is owning one...and then keeping it running!

Bob

BTW, I have very little mechanical knowledge but with the help of a few friends and this board my truck is running great, and I'm confident I'll be able to keep it that way.

[NickDawson]

The best thing to do like everyone has mentioned is take your time. Grab a pair of old work cloths and a mat/cardboard/carpet etc and a hammer and screwdriver and spent the time on your back getting dirty and oily going over every inch of the frame and bulkhead. (oh and don't forget something to cover your eyes and hair, I always seem to get a chunck of oily dirt in my eye and or hair when I am under my truck)

Thanks!
I'm getting more comfortable doing that but I've noticed that most owners really don't feel great about you breaking out the hammer. I've had some flat out say "no".
Part of me wants to say - fine, no inspection, no offer but part of me also understands. Who wants someone hitting around under their automobile? Its a bit of a social challenge more than anything...

edited to add: That may be because I'm looking at trucks where the owners really do think they have a gem - and thus the high price tags on the "rot boxes" that I've shared thus far... As I start to find some tucks that are more "project worthy" (not exactly my preference, but in line with my budget) I suspect it will get much easier to poke and prod under the frame

The real challenge is that my geography has expanded so much that most of the options before me now will require getting someone else to do that dirty work. At that point its not a matter of coercion or desire, its a matter of logistics.

I'm working on coming up with a few options then starting a thread to see who on this board is near by those trucks (I'll repay the favor in the form of cold six packs next time someone is through Virginia :D)

[Jeff Aronson]

Nick,

There's a strong Land Rover community that will help you look at any vehicle, anywhere. I bought my second Rover, the QM I, 250 miles away from my island town. I had it looked at, knew the owner's reputation in the Land Rover community, talked to the shop that did work on the vehicle, and found out that the parts replaced were Genuine LR parts or Proline parts from Rovers North. All of this gave me confidence to jump into the Rover and drive it home - with tools and fluids on hand in case I had a problem, which I didn't.

Many years ago we ran a Rovers North News article by an absolute Rover novice [then] who bought a Series Rover from a private party in Vermont and drove it home to the upper midwest, about a 1,000 mile trip. He carried a cellphone and some tools, and took down phone numbers of Rovers North staff in case he needed help. He needed to add some oil to the engine and one windshield wiper motor failed [on his II-A, so he could still operate it by hand]. The trip took him over 20 hours and he enjoyed the cars for a few years afterwards before moving to a Range Rover Classic.

An owner who does not understand why you would bring a hammer to explore the frame is either an owner who knows the hammer would bust through rot in the frame, or doesn't really know much about Series Rovers [or they would accept that reasonable request]. If they're not that knowledgeable, then they might not have done the right maintenance on their Rover over the years.

You're poking around on spots, like the crossmembers and the rails, on the frame, not whacking it with a sledge hammer. You'll do no damage to the car - unless the frame is rotten in spots. A Land Rover frame that's solid will absorb hits with a hammer [you can't really get that good a swing from underneath the car] that are far less than the thumps it will take when the frame lands on a rock offroad. They're designed for enormous strength, and any knowledgeable owner should know that.

So your instincts are right on this one. Don't accept "social niceties" on this issue - you're not assaulting the body of the car and putting dents into it :).

Best wishes,

Jeff

[Apis Mellifera]

Get yourself a magnet and one of these:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v307/dandomatic2/DSC01496.jpg

Pick, hammer, and scraper. Small, easy to carry, and much less frightening to a seller than the full-size counterparts.

[NickDawson]

Many years ago we ran a Rovers North News article by an absolute Rover novice [then] who bought a Series Rover from a private party in Vermont and drove it home to the upper midwest, about a 1,000 mile trip. He carried a cellphone and some tools, and took down phone numbers of Rovers North staff in case he needed help. He needed to add some oil to the engine and one windshield wiper motor failed [on his II-A, so he could still operate it by hand]. The trip took him over 20 hours and he enjoyed the cars for a few years afterwards before moving to a Range Rover Classic.

An owner who does not understand why you would bring a hammer to explore the frame is either an owner who knows the hammer would bust through rot in the frame, or doesn't really know much about Series Rovers [or they would accept that reasonable request]. If they're not that knowledgeable, then they might not have done the right maintenance on their Rover over the years.
Thanks Jeff! I love that story - enjoyed relaying it to my old man last nigh (he's my partner in crime on this potential restoration project of ours...)

As for owners, most that I've run into fall into the later catagory - I think there is an entire 2nd community of "gentile rover owners" out there that trade around $15,000K trucks that this group wouldn't pay $5K for.... and those guys all say things like "of course there's rust, they all rust" and then look at you strange when you want to look underneath. I really don't think they are shady, just not that knowledgeable.

In regards to my search: I'm still on the prowl... I've taken to following Series trucks around town and accosting the drivers.. I've also left a few notes "love to learn more about your Rover experience, call me @..."

I've enlisted Sean Jones in North Carolina to help and he's quite obliging. I'm going to place a similar call to our hosts. ... we had a chance to dig deeper into the story of a friend who recently sold a Series III in my hometown (unbeknown to us) - he apparently called RN and pestered them enough that they sourced 3 (!!!) Series IIIs from a Canadian logging company and then used them to construct one solid running vheical (with a new galvy frame)... Sold it in perfect running condition and rust free for $4.5K 3 months ago :(

I'm half tempted to go look at this monstrosity: (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Land-Rover-109-SIII-Land-Rover-109-Series-III-Double-Cab-RHD-Very-Nice_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ320365503343QQsspagena meZRSSQ3aBQ3aSRCHQ3aUSQ3a101) which may be the wost re-paint job I've ever seen. I've also decided I'm really more partial to the 88" ...

Looking forward to keeping everyone posted!
-N

[galen216]

I'm half tempted to go look at this monstrosity: (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Land-Rover-109-SIII-Land-Rover-109-Series-III-Double-Cab-RHD-Very-Nice_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ320365503343QQsspagena meZRSSQ3aBQ3aSRCHQ3aUSQ3a101) which may be the wost re-paint job I've ever seen. I've also decided I'm really more partial to the 88" ...

-N

I know this truck, it is mechanically sound and came from Africa. But you are right, a year ago it looked very different....

[scott]

me & my 64 iia hooked up about 3 years ago. my 1st rover purchase. it had new paint. the galv parts were painted over. i didn't know about the frame rust thing. bought it via the internet. flew to arkansas to pick it up. drove it back to new mex with my tool box, buddy jeff and yes no jack. i got lucky. paid under $6k and the frame is original and in great shape. my point is there are good trucks out there for a decent price but i won't rely on luck for my next buy thanks to all the good advice you'll rcv here.

[Jeff Aronson]

Avoid the 109 from EBay. When you read the owner's description, you find that it "pops out" of 3rd gear under load. That's heading towards a transmission rebuild with new synchros, and maybe more.

The other issue is that it's a homemade double cab. Rover did not offer them in the Series days and this one has a cut back top and a custom canvas back. I don't think it's a good buy for you, given what you've written here.

Jeff

[NickDawson]

Avoid the 109 from EBay.

Roger That

[NickDawson]

First, the CD player has to go :D
But I'm going to be nearby this truck this weekend (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1972-Land-Rover-Series-III-88-MOD_W0QQitemZ320368311791QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Car s_Trucks?hash=item4a97707def&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A7|39%3A1|240%3A1318)- thinking of scoping a closer look, but suspect its in the "gentleman Rover owner" category.

I also understand there are some concerns about the ex-MOD stuff...and is that a body patch on the front driver's door?

[jac04]

It's hard to tell from the poor pictures, but it looks like both doors have the "patch" on them, which could possibly be a home-made vent - some people do this to try to get some additional ventilation.
I wonder if this is really an ex-MOD vehicle. It doesn't have the proper bumper over-riders in front or the military rear crossmember.

[greenmeanie]

Nick,
That truck doesn’t look bad at all. Of course, he is missing the essential pictures of chassis and detail foot well shots. From those internal pictures I would say pay attention to the foot wells as they are missing the little stiffening dimples which suggests a previous repair. If it is solid then don’t worry about it.

While that truck may have served in the MOD there is really nothing on it that makes it any different than a civvy spec truck. The goodies in the way of heavy duty chassis and suspension are really only seen on the 109 GS so the MOD reference is just salesmanship. Inspect the chassis as you would any other truck. You’d probably want to swap any military tyre out on a DD.

The ‘patch’in the door is actually a vent that some people add to provide cool air to their feet. It’s not the prettiest thing but is quite useful. I would view it as neither a positive nor negative unless it offends your sense of aesthetics.

I would pay close attention to the rear cross member and those recovery points. If they are welded in place all is good. If they are the bolt on eyes be very careful as on MOD trucks they are for helicopter transport and are not robust enough for recovery.

[Jeff Aronson]

No, Nick, not a patch. Some owners installed vents in the doors to funnel air into the cabin. It's not a factory option but I've seen them in British magazines.

The car looks straight and together, without the "special" custom features that are sometimes poorly done. The snorkel for deep water offroading in a nice addition. You should find out where and who did the engine rebuild, or it is was a long block installed from a vendor.

Again, bring your hammer and screwdriver - you know the drill by now.

MOD Rovers are not "rare;" they're rather common unless they're the 24v "fitted for radio" units. In some cases, they're well cared for because they get a lot of maintenance. In other cases, they're beaten up by "squaddies" who treat them like rental cars.

This one is worth the drive. Don't worry about the CD player - the real question is whether it can really work given the vibrations that come with driving a Series Rover.

Good luck - and see if you can get another enthusiast to join you looking at it.

Jeff

[NickDawson]

Thanks gang!
I've inquired about the seller's reserve to make sure I'm barking up the right tree... fingers crossed - the close proximity makes it even better.

Regarding the snorkel and engine, does it look like a Rover motor or is it some kind drop-in? Any concerns about being able to work on and source parts for the "long block"?


As always, grateful for the help!

p.s. I have assembled a "rover kit" that goes with me in a bag... screwdriver, small hammer, adjustable wrench and rag... I'm well armed

[Jeff Aronson]

Add a flashlight and waterless hand cleaner, like GoJo or Fast Orange, to your kit and a set of safety glasses for yourself. You're going to get dirty and you don't want crap falling in your eyes. While you're under the car, have the owner chock the wheels and put the car in neutral, brake off. Then shake the front and rear driveshafts to check for wear; not a big replacement/repair issue but a bargaining chip.

If you bring a 1/2 wrench you can check the transmission and transfer case for fluid. The transmission filler bolt is on the left side of the car, underneath the front door. The transfer case is on the side facing the rear, next to the transmission. It's a sign of good maintenance that they're topped up. If the owner knows where they're located, it's a sign that he or she knows something about the car, too.

The same wrench can open the steering box under the hood. I'm pretty sure you'll need a 9/16th" for the front and rear axles; if it has the older II-A axle in the rear, you'll need a 3/4" wrench.

Yes, it looks like a Rover 2.25L motor. The photos are small but it does look like the rebuilt engine has a Weber carb, which I like.

"Long block" is an automotive repair term used for engine rebuilds. Most of the time when you need an engine rebuild, the innards - cylinders, pistons, crankshaft, camshaft, timing chain/tensioners, etc. - are cleaned up, bored out and/or machined, or replaced entirely. When you have a "long block" rebuilt, the top of the engine [cylinder heads, manifolds, carb, water pump, maybe alternator] are new as well. If it had a "short block" rebuild, than any of the items bolted onto the engine itself are likely from the old engine. They'd be inspected for excess wear but not necessarily replaced.

Good luck with your search,

Jeff

[Terrys]

I also understand there are some concerns about the ex-MOD stuff...and is that a body patch on the front driver's door?

Whether it's an EX-MOD truck or not wouldn't concern me. Spares are as available as civies, and there is little that makes them unique from a civi Series 3 except light switch, and light sockets.
As others have said, those "patches in the doors are vents and it's a common thing to use rooftop vents in the doors. They appear to be Land Rover roof vents anyway. Those, and the scuttle vents make driving one in the summer almost pleasant, but nothing beats top off driving.

[Eric W S]

When you have a "long block" rebuilt, the top of the engine [cylinder heads, manifolds, carb, water pump, maybe alternator] are new as well. If it had a "short block" rebuild, than any of the items bolted onto the engine itself are likely from the old engine. They'd be inspected for excess wear but not necessarily replaced.


Huh?

Long block is the block, crankshaft, head, pistons, and rods. Machined to spec and assembled.

Unless you are paying someone to replace your motor, rebuilds do not include anything bolted to the engine such as carbs, manifolds, alts, water pumps, etc...

Google Turner Engineering. That is a good reference as to what should have been done durin the process and the terminology is a good primer as well...

[Moose]

You'll want to change those military bar grip tires. They are awful in the rain and snow. And don't be too excited about that snorkel... it doesn't seem to be conected to anything. Certainly doesn't look like it is attached to the air cleaner, as it should be.

It's a civilian spec truck that may have been used in the military, but nothing wrong with that. I love the sellers claim "Engine and transmission are in excellent condition , there are no oil leaks."

Truck might be worth having a look at though.

Brett

[LC Rover]

It would make me happier if it were a MOD truck. The REME’s did every thing by the book, no jury-rigging. I have an MOD 74 88 somewhat more knowledge than the average Rover nut about MOD trucks. ( My truck is on page 14 in the winter issue of the RN mag.) Can’t tell if it was it was really a MOD release truck, there has been a lot of up grades/changes made, i.e. no deluxe seats or middle seat for the squaddies, no pintle hitch or trailer plug in the back, but it has a single gauge in the dash and I am guessing that its an amp meter which almost all military trucks had. The bar grip tire are great in the mud but in the rain we used to call them “widow makers” Look for the contract plate somewhere on the seat box or 4 holes were it would have been, that would true sign. The truck does not look to bad by the pictures. Looks like it has the dual brake system, the engine picture is bad but it looks like a vacuum fitting on the intake manifold and no brake switch above the brake pedal hidden by a guard (I think hydro switch came later ) go take a good hard look. By the end of this thread, you will have become an expert on truck inspections. Ask the seller to e-mail you more pictures of the under carriage and the foot wells and motor areas. If he won’t…walk.... Left hand military trucks spent their life in Europe or somewhere you drive on the righthand side of the road

[thixon]

Huh?

Long block is the block, crankshaft, head, pistons, and rods. Machined to spec and assembled.

Unless you are paying someone to replace your motor, rebuilds do not include anything bolted to the engine such as carbs, manifolds, alts, water pumps, etc...

Google Turner Engineering. That is a good reference as to what should have been done durin the process and the terminology is a good primer as well...

Eric,

I think Jeff was trying to explain what was likely to be reality when a seller advertised either a long block rebuild or short block rebuild, so that our new friend here would know what to look out for. For example, someone claiming to have installed a long block would very likely replace the carb, manifolds, alt., etc. (if not then he'd be a giant dufus, and hopefully Nick will now know somethings up). Someone installing a short block, or just doing a bottom end overhaul might choose to re-use all the ancillary odds and ends if they were in good shape (presumably to save money,or because the bottom end was all that went south). I'm sure you already know all of this though.

BTW, you left out that a long block generally also has the timing gear, chain, cover, and oil pan installed as well.

[Eric W S]

Eric,

I think Jeff was trying to explain what was likely to be reality when a seller advertised either a long block rebuild or short block rebuild, so that our new friend here would know what to look out for. For example, someone claiming to have installed a long block would very likely replace the carb, manifolds, alt., etc. (if not then he'd be a giant dufus, and hopefully Nick will now know somethings up). Someone installing a short block, or just doing a bottom end overhaul might choose to re-use all the ancillary odds and ends if they were in good shape (presumably to save money,or because the bottom end was all that went south). I'm sure you already know all of this though.

BTW, you left out that a long block generally also has the timing gear, chain, cover, and oil pan installed as well.

Jeff's explanation was confusing, hence the clarification as to just what exactly a long block refers to. Jeff response alludes more to the overall process...it's fine if you know what the components to that process are but if you have to ask what a long block is...

I interntionally kept the definition simple as well, given the audience. It's the big picture for a beginner, not a precise definition by any means.

[Jeff Aronson]

Thanks, Travis and Eric, for improving my rambling efforts at explaining what's behind the terms "long block" and "short block." I've experienced a wide range of what those terms mean to the provider/seller over the years on Rovers and on other British cars, so it's not surprising that specifics would vary based on who you dealt with on the individual sale.

Jeff

[Rineheitzgabot]

It's okay Jeff. I have an 11-year-old at home that does the same stuff to me when I try to have a conversation. He has all the acumen of a world class attorney. You know, "No dad, you said, is, instead of was!"

I knew what you were referring to.

Travis, Your box is full.

[thixon]

Travis, Your box is full.

Whoops.

Box emptied.:thumb-up:

[JackIIA]

From the peanut gallery...

I found Eric's clarification helpful given my underwhelming knowledge coupled with a very poor memory. That said, keep those posts coming Jeff. I've gotten ALOT of gems from your realworld experience.

[NickDawson]

The whole conversation has been an education for me!

[NickDawson]

Heard back from the Ex-MOD on ebay... $10.5K reserve ... rich for my blood, but going to take a closer look tomorrow.

[NickDawson]

Quick update on the green ex-MOD that I looked at today...

To my eye, it was in very nice condition. The body and interior were very well maintained, although I don't care for the monochromatic paint job

More importantly the frame- there was "surface rust" but when I banged away with a screw driver nothing seemed to give way. I've learned from you guys that rust starts on the inside, so what does it mean when you see some on the surface but its still rock solid?

The foot wells had been replaced and it looked like prior to their replacement someone had used some bondo (evidenced by residual bondo underneath, but not visible from the interior).

The seat belts were after-market inertia belts mounted on a galvanized plate which in turn was mounted to the frame (also new and somewhat unique) ... it even had 4 lap belts in the back. Interesting but not worth much to me.

The doors were solid, but missing their black lining - maybe b/c they were MOD? The door vents on the other hand were a blessing on this hot Virginia day. I can see them being very handy.

The rebuilt engine really had some giddy-up to it. He said it had been totally rebuilt but didn't think the head was bored out... that said, I had no problem getting to 60mph (no over drive) and it pulled hills in 4th gear with room to spare. Maybe that is all normal, but with the others I've test driven it hasn't been the case.

As suspected, the snorkel was not attached to anything, he was using the traditional oil bath. Although it would be a snap to connect the hose if the need ever arose. I am curious about snorkels though - I was once told that they are just for flash and show unless you have an exhaust snorkel as well - any truth to that?

I have to say, I think this was a really nice truck and I think the price he is asking seems to be a fair market value - at least based on the other stuff I've seen. Its north of my budget...so we have some serious thinking to do, but I'm interested in the reaction from this group about the "surface rust" and foot wells.

I started this search in the $6K range and was hoping for something that ran well but that I could learn to maintain. As it has progressed, I've started to think about "project" rovers that need some TLC. That idea has some appeal in the pride that would result...but as I've said before, swapping a motor is more than I want to take on. Now I'm through the roof on the budget and back to something that doesn't appear to need any work (other than maintenance). So you lose the pride of the project, but maybe its more realistic as a first truck...just thinking out loud.

One final note on the history, of which I am wildly skeptical but would enthusiastically re-tell if it were mine :D ... He claims it was sourced from Africa where it had been ordered by Idi Amine (or more accurately ordered by his famed Scottish physician..whom if I'm not mistaken never actually existed) and was destined to be a police truck but was delivered right as he was being over thrown. BS? Maybe, but its a heck of a story. Also have to wonder if the Ugandans use the same care for their trucks as the Brit army....
From there it was imported to Colorado which is where the current owner purchased it. I'm thinking Africa and Colorado lend some creedence to the rust free frame?

Pick it apart guys - what have I missed?

[Jeff Aronson]

Hi Nick,

Good for you for keeping your enthusiasm up during this chase for the right Rover for you!

Surface rust is not uncommon; you should be able to scrape it away and see bare metal. The key is that you did not find through rust. There's no guarantee but at least it's a good start. If the footwells had been replaced with metal, there should not be any visible bondo; are you sure it's not a sealant? That's a common thing to do when you replace footwells the prevent water intrusion.

Did you check any of the fluid levels [oil, antifreeze, transfer case, transmission, etc.] while you were looking at and under the car? It can tell you a lot about the owner's maintenance, too.

The absence of interior door panels is a matter of personal choice. Some MOD vehicles had them, some did not. Many times they're just dissolved away, like mine did, and they're easy to replace. Rovers North still carries them.

Even a weak Rover engine will let you cruise at 60 mph all day - albeit pushing a lot of oil - but holding high speed on hills is a good sign. Generally you overbore an engine during a rebuild either because the cylinders are worn out and you have to, or to get more power. A compression test and a leak down test should be "must" for you if you're serious about the vehicle. They will tell you more about the condition of the engine than the test drive alone.

You do not need an "exhaust snorkel" in order to use the intake one. However, the unit needs to be sealed well, particularly where it enters the carb throat. Most of the time, you can off road in deep water with a standard Rover as long as you keep moving forward. Your Rover will create a bow wave, even a slow speeds, to prevent water from drowning the ignition or worse,entering the carb and cylinders. The snorkel lets you go somewhat deeper - it's particulalry effective with a diesel engine because they don't have any ignition.

Seat belts are nice additions and you'll appreciate them one day. In some states, they're mandated regardless of the year of the vehicle.

Don't fret about not having much work to do on your Series Rover - they're maintenance intensive and you'll have plenty of time to learn the basics while maintaining your car. Until you've driven a reasonable Series Rover, you won't know how to assess the quality of the work you're going to learn to do - a "together" truck is the right way to start. And the more maintenance you do, the fewer repairs you'll have to learn down the line.

Uganda was a former British colony and Land Rovers were used by their governments routinely. You saw announcements by Rover of sales to African countries often in their press releases. That said, whether Idi Amin himself actually order that particular Rover would be hard to prove unless you trace it back through the records held by the British Motor Heritage Trust at Gaydon. African mechanics keep a lot of Land Rovers, Peugeots, Mercedes and Asian vehicles together, sometimes in high quality shops and sometimes in small garages, or outdoors. I would not presume the Ugandan Army's maintenance was any better or worse than that of Great Britain.

Price is a personal issue. I know enthusiasts who seem to pick up Series Rovers for low prices all the time, and they seem to get good bargains, too. It's just never me! If this Rover stirs your blood and you can afford it and the inevitable repairs that will follow, then treat yourself.

Just remember that there are more Series Rovers out there - don't obsess over the "one that got away. Also, remember that once you have it you will drive it MUCH more than you think you will right now.

Jeff

[adkrover]

I just drove mine out of the barn today after a long winter's nap. I say go buy a truck already and roll up your sleaves.

[greenmeanie]

Nick,
There are a few inconsistences in the story. If this truck was orderd by the Ugandan governement then it is not Ex MOD. It may be ex Ugandan military but in LR parlance MOD trucks belonged to the British. IT sounds like someone is spinning a few stories to make the vehicle more marketable. If you have the VIN we should be able to give you an idea of its original build.

My one caveat here would be that if this truck is an import I would want the associated paperwork with it. Even although it is unlikely to be a problem all it takes is an over zealous lawyer in the event of an accident and...

[NickDawson]

Nick,
There are a few inconsistences in the story. If this truck was orderd by the Ugandan governement then it is not Ex MOD. It may be ex Ugandan military but in LR parlance MOD trucks belonged to the British.

Totally agree - its painted military green and thats about where the similarities end. But it has some neat touches like the door vents and work lights (not worth much in terms of $ but some added flair)

Good point on the paperwork - clean title would be important, I'll check into that.

Thanks!
-N

[Rineheitzgabot]

According to the LRFAQ website (A registry of VIN's), the following information was given, about the vehicle you are referring to:

25900591, 05 May 1972, 05 Jun 1972, Marine Blue, PED Schindelman, USA

I don't know if this is accurate or not, but usually they are.

PED Schindleman? USA? Marine Blue? Seems a little odd.

Who knows, the guys selling it may have bought the story hook line and you know what.

Of course, none of this means that the vehicle is worthless, just that, the facts aren't completely straight (if the LRFAQ website is correct).

Good luck,
Gary

[greenmeanie]

Good point on the paperwork - clean title would be important, I'll check into that.
-N

Be careful as a clean title means nothing when it comes to a legal import. If you want an idea just go to any forum and start reading about importing Defenders and you'll understand. You need the customs and EPA paper work to be truly legit. Again this is not such a big issue for a series but you have to think about when it was brought over and not the vehicle's age now.

[NickDawson]

I know the prevailing thoughts on UK imports...
but is there anyone in the Norfolk, England that wants to do some field research for me :D ?
This guy is priced too low to be of any quality (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LAND-ROVER-SERIES-3-SAFARI-SWB-4X4-7-SEAT-STUNNING_W0QQitemZ270388990024QQcmdZViewItemQQptZU S_Cars_Trucks?hash=item3ef4709048&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A317|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318) but my interest is piqued nonetheless

[daveb]

well, you tell us. what do you like about that one?


I know the prevailing thoughts on UK imports...
but is there anyone in the Norfolk, England that wants to do some field research for me :D ?
This guy is priced too low to be of any quality (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LAND-ROVER-SERIES-3-SAFARI-SWB-4X4-7-SEAT-STUNNING_W0QQitemZ270388990024QQcmdZViewItemQQptZU S_Cars_Trucks?hash=item3ef4709048&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A317%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318 ) but my interest is piqued nonetheless

[NickDawson]

well, you tell us. what do you like about that one?

Truthfully nothing besides the RHD...and even then, I'm not sure its worth the hassle. Mostly just making a list for compairion...
What does a $5K "project" look like vs something in the $10K range in good shape.

The Brit import ebay special is not really in the running for me...just a lark

[daveb]

*every* land rover is a project. from the time you set foot in in it until the day you wave goodbye as it drives away with a new owner.

A 5k *project* can look ten times better than a 10k truck in good shape, depending on whose point of view you are looking at it from. in my opinion the expensive trucks are usually expensive for all the wrong reasons. not always, but usually it is either someone trying to make a fast buck or recoup their own losses on an ill-advised purchase. of course the truly nice ones are out there. but it is often hard to tell from a photo, especially when you haven't been there and done that.

that ebay UK truck is priced for a US sucker. it has the typical hasty respray with overspray visible around the rear crossmember. the bumper is a cheesy piece of square tube. the galvanised bits are painted silver. the range rover wheels have had the centers hogged out to fit over the series hubs- those wheels don't fit series trucks without some doing. the interior looks like s**t. the seller is touting it as something special and even goes so far as to describe the standard features as some sort of custom mod. what a loser.

there are plenty of good trucks out west. you'd do much better looking out there I think. In any case, keep looking.



Truthfully nothing besides the RHD...and even then, I'm not sure its worth the hassle. Mostly just making a list for compairion...
What does a $5K "project" look like vs something in the $10K range in good shape.

[NickDawson]

that ebay UK truck is priced for a US sucker. the interior looks like s**t. the seller is touting it as something special and even goes so far as to describe the standard features as some sort of custom mod. what a loser. .

Agree - again, posted it as a joke...

That said, I have found some new listings for stuff in the $5K range - in the process of sorting them out before I beg someone 1/2 way across the country to look for me.

No point in reiterating what has been said several times...its just a matter of inventory vs budget vs time. Whats out there...what does it need...can I afford that in terms of both time and budget and will it be enjoyable right away (IE not having to drop a new motor in)....

The good news is that I've a short list and my eye is becoming more educated by the day thanks to this board.

I'm going to heed Jeff's advice and not mourn any that get away, but this one in Virginia (the Green guy from this weekend) is a contender if we decide to splurge a little more than we had planned.

[bmohan55]

The grab handles on the front doors are upside down, may be indicitive of the quality of restoration.

It probably stalled out trying to climb that hill and couldn't be restarted!

[LaneRover]

I personally liked that high quality front bumper!

Maybe it was thinner to give a greater approach angle!

[NickDawson]

I personally liked that high quality front bumper!

Maybe it was thinner to give a greater approach angle!

What were they thinking - thats a "feature" :D

[Eric W S]

The grab handles on the front doors are upside down, may be indicitive of the quality of restoration.

It probably stalled out trying to climb that hill and couldn't be restarted!

That and the early range rover wheels. . . Complete quality job that one...

[NickDawson]

Is this a bug eye (http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/cto/1143091100.html)? Looks like one to me... pricey but guy sounds motovated

[scott]

yep it's a bugeye. they where built in 68 but if it originaly sold in 69 that might explain the guy is calling it a 69.

[Jeff Aronson]

Lots of new parts including original replica engine and upgraded SU Carb. Engine and Card have less than 10,000 miles on it.

It's a bugeye in the front, which would make it a '69 officially in the US. The quote above on the engine raises concerns; what's a "replica engine," and why would a Land Rover engine have SU carbs? Only Rover car engines used SU's in the US- Rovers used Solex or Zenith carbs for sale here.

It might have another engine dropped in, but it's unlikely to be a 2.25 standard engine.

Jeff

[jac04]

...and why would a Land Rover engine have SU carbs?
ACR has a SU carb upgrade available for the Land Rover 2.25.

[Jeff Aronson]

Neat, Jac - never seen ACR or their "upgrade." Thanks for the information.

My experience with SU carbs on my MG Midget would not leave me to believe that SU's represent the best "upgrade" for off road or bad road uses.

My Solex Rover has the ability to seemingly shake off grit and junk that gets shaken and stirred in the gas tank. Indeed, Solex used to advertise their capabilities as proven by their standard fitting in Land Rovers. And Rover chose Zenith carbs to meet our first emissions legislation.

My Weber Rover is more finicky than the Solex car but at least it can be cleaned out easily in the woods.

Taking apart my SU's was not a "field experience," but something that needed to be completed on the kitchen table.

Jeff

[109 Pretender]

Wow! Awesome thread guys and a lot of sage advice here. I think Ike hit the nail on the head earlier though - find the best body/frame you can - the rest is just parts... We all know the shortcomings w/steel and alum. touching. Add to that salt and road chemicals used in the snow (rust) belt and well after 40 years you have a body that almost isn't worth messing with if you desire a 1st class end result.

Decide now what you are willing to ultimately spend on the final project and what you desire it to look like. If you want perfection then the body is the most important element. Frames are just money. Many body panels are NLA so scrounging around is a must if they are rotten. Mechanicals can be rebuilt even though some parts for the trans. and 6 cyl. engines are also NLA.
Also remember that no matter what it's 40 years old and was designed to be a utility vehicle and most owners used it that way - little if any care over the years.
That said - IF you are willing to take your time, look at several and select the one that best meets your goals AND are willing to spend a LOT of money you can end up with a Rover that's better than new. I paid 3500.00 30 years ago for a 109 NADA which had a perfect frame and body. I drove it 50,000 mi over the next 4 years mostly trouble free and then rebuilt it completely (every square mm) at a parts cost alone of over 40,000. (yeah, every single nut, bolt,etc) It took me over 10 years to do it and I did everything myself except the galv. and machine shop work. That's why a perfect rebuilt anything that is that old is so valuable - it costs major bucks to do it right.
If all you want to do is own a decent example and use it - that's ok too. Best examples are going to be found in Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, Arizona, NM, Cali. and Nevada (think dry climate) and they are out there. I know of an S3 88 in Kansas in a field that's been there for many, many years - and it's aging quite nicely... I say go for it once you have identified what your end goals are then dig in and get greasy!

Oh yeah, stay away from the imports if you can - the Brits are out to make a buck off us "rich Yanks" right now. Ha, Ha!

Cheers!

[109 Pretender]

Nick, here's a followup to my own reply. You mentioned that you don't have a lot of mech experience. With that said I'd recommend that you should really try to find as nice an example as possible. I twisted wrenches on British and Italian and German iron for almost 20 years professionally and have restored 6 vehicles from the frame up. I own more tools than I care to admit. Many of these guys here have also worked professionally and have the tools at their disposal and they have lots of experience. Tools are expensive and so is the labor if you farm it out - there's no cheap, easy way to do it right. However, a Land Rover (or old MG) is just about as entry level as it gets in terms of complexity and it's a great way to learn about wrenching. I'd also recommend that you make sure you have a good place to work on and disassemble the vehicle because it takes up about 6 times more room when taken apart.
Again - get one and get greasy!! You'll either LOVE it or hate it. Guess you already surmise that all of us love it - at least most of the time...;)

Good Luck!

[adkrover]

Yeah. What he said!

[NickDawson]

Yeah. What he said!
:thumb-up:

[Lawrie]

Nick,
Lawrie here up in Vermont - My container arrived Tuesday am, all paperwork clean, customs only sniffed around for an hour at border. I unloaded 40' container in 70 minutes (three Series 3's, 8 engines, gearboxes, pick up cabs, hoops, miltary gas tanks,odd old and hard to ship bits typically not easily available from our hosts. I am organising, and will take pictures, write-up and get off to you.
I have skimmed through this thread and the previous one of yours and think I may have a truck for you and what many on this thread hit on:
Galvy chassis, stock set up, regular use and MOT history showing truck is getting attention, normal upkeep, no new/fancy paint to hide anything.
I have:
two - S3, RHD, galvy chassis, straight, no wierd mods, marine blue/limestone, parobolic springs, recent MOT,
one is 2.25 diesel - new chassis, brake pipes,.. clean up in 2005 (and to my shock it is NOT smoky, actually quite peppy (seller did say it was rebuilt, but I usually don't believe it unless I have proof, as a UK rebuild may mean a valve job - sorry Brits but i am not far off when it come to old iron)
one is 2.25 petrol - new chassis, springs, pipes, petrol tank, good quality paint job, new deluxe seats, roof rack and ladder in 2004.

I need to dig deeper, drive around abit before i settle on price, want to be fair as they need tinkering, and dollars - but are solid base to learn, invest in, rather than something that will be a liability in a few years. I am thinking ~$6 - 7 k. I will list on for sale section.

[greenmeanie]

Nick,
I usually don't believe it unless I have proof, as a UK rebuild may mean a valve job - sorry Brits but i am not far off when it come to old iron)


Lawrie that is a pretty universal statement no matter where in the world you look. One man's rebuild is another man's half arsed overhaul.

[69Bugeye]

Is this a bug eye (http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/cto/1143091100.html)? Looks like one to me... pricey but guy sounds motovated

Hey. New guy here. Yes it's a Bugeye. I just bought it. Love it.

...and yes, the seller was motivated. :thumb-up:

steve

[NickDawson]

Hey. New guy here. Yes it's a Bugeye. I just bought it. Love it.

...and yes, the seller was motivated. :thumb-up:

steve

Nicely done!
Must be why I couldn't get him to return my calls :D

[NickDawson]

Lawrie here up in Vermont - My container arrived Tuesday
Lawrie - looking forward to some more info, thanks for keeping me posted!

Just got back from being out of town and playing catchup...

[NickDawson]

looking at the new listings on ebay...
This guy sounds interesting (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LAND-ROVER_W0QQitemZ260409625569QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_C ars_Trucks?hash=item3ca19f8be1&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A7|39%3A1|240%3A1318) - but I've become distrustful of anyone who makes claims about the frame and bulkhead... anyone in Waxahachie, Texas? Also what is a "military engine"?

and of course, there's there whole RHD/import issue... but I'm hearing some success stories lately that make me think it is possible to find worthwhile imported trucks...

[Jeff Aronson]

Nick,

A glance at the EBay seller's description and photos hints to you he is not a Land Rover enthusiast. Misspelling the "Fairey" overdrive is an unlikely no-no for any Land Rover owner. I'm going out on a limb to say it's not a typo, but a lack of knowledge.

Also, the interior door panels really look like the gray ones with the arm rests from a Series II-A, not the black ones that came with the Series III. It's not a big issue, but it leads to questions about the originality of the Rover.

As for the "military" engine, it's likely a replacement one put in by the previous owner - thus the 20,000 miles. The Ministry of Defense would buy engines to support their Land Rovers; at times, they would sell off surplus stock. As the Series III no longer plays a role in the British military, you could get new MOD engines as "drop in" replacements. The 5-main bearing model is the same that went into the Series III as well as, I think, the later II-A models. The extra 2 bearings should help it last longer.

On the plus side, a solid bulkhead and frame and a newer engine [hopefully broken in properly and well-maintained since] gets you off to a reliable start.

Good luck,

Jeff

[SafeAirOne]

Nick,

Misspelling the "Fairey" overdrive is an unlikely no-no for any Land Rover owner. I'm going out on a limb to say it's not a typo, but a lack of knowledge.


It's hard to tell, since the seller had a bit of trouble with the word "military" as well....

[NickDawson]

It's hard to tell, since the seller had a bit of trouble with the word "military" as well....

Bad spellers of the world untie!

thanks guys - got some other irons in the fire as well, just wanted to get a read on that posting.

[Apis Mellifera]

Bad spellers of the world untie!

Untie what?

[NickDawson]

another from the net... (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/tags/rhd1/)
things I see (from the limited pics):
RHD (clearly)
non-factory windows (makes sense considering its UK heritage)
fresh paint - know thats not worth anything, but could be disguising damage

How about those mirrors? Are they defender mirrors mounted on an early III?

I've asked for more pics - chassis, footwells, interior in general, etc. Trying to decide if its worth asking someone local to take a closer look.

[SafeAirOne]

Very limited pics. If it matters, the registration marks indicate it was registered in Surry between August 72 and the end of July 73.

[NickDawson]

Asked for more pics - looking forward to getting the reaction from you guys.

On a related note - whats the thought about the later series IIIs...early 1980s? I really like the county trim that I saw on one...its unique but not doesn't really feel like a series truck to me. Most of those are out of my price range, just cruous why I haven't heard more about the late model series (pre defenders)?

[jac04]

- whats the thought about the later series IIIs...early 1980s?

There are some differences:

Lots of good advice here regarding buying an old Rover.
I'll chime in with some personal experience: Don't buy a vehicle that wasn't imported into the US to begin with. If you do (like I did :o ), you may find yourself needing parts that are difficult and/or very expensive to obtain. Late Series III vehicles (from the 80's) have things like different (metric) brake fittings, different stub axles/oil seals, and different axles than the older SIII vehicles sold new in the US.

[NickDawson]

There are some differences:

Thanks Jac04 - must have been on information overload. Recall the advice against imports in general...forgot what you said about 1980s stuff. Very helpful!

[Bertha]

I just saw this one Nick In my neck of the woods-looks close to what you are looking for.

Land Rover 1965 Series 11 - $7000 (Fairfield)

Reply to:sale-kgvyg-1194870391@craigslist.org (sale-kgvyg-1194870391@craigslist.org?subject=Land%20Rover%201 965%20Series%2011%20-%20%247000%20(Fairfield)) [Errors when replying to ads? (http://www.craigslist.org/about/help/replying_to_posts)]
Date: 2009-05-29, 2:37PM EDT


Land Rover 1965 series 2. Hard safari aluminum top. unused canvas top, or no top at all for the summer !!! powerful winch. NO RUST ! amazing condition but used. He spent most of his life in Arizona and is kept in a barn in CT now. come and see for yourself. a wonderful fun and useful car. starts every time.


Location: Fairfield
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interestshttp://images.craigslist.org/3n13kc3l4ZZZZZZZZZ95t8b56f29419bf1b36.jpghttp://images.craigslist.org/3k23o23p5ZZZZZZZZZ95t03c16c408be515be.jpghttp://images.craigslist.org/3n03mf3ocZZZZZZZZZ95t8544308365e61b37.jpghttp://images.craigslist.org/3p83oe3l2ZZZZZZZZZ95tf535397d976a18b7.jpg

[NickDawson]

I just saw this one Nick In my neck of the woods-looks close to what you are looking for.

Land Rover 1965 Series 11 - $7000 (Fairfield)

Bertha - thanks for thinking of me and my search!

[greenmeanie]

I remember that one from when it was on craigslist in Phoenix. I don't think they wanted $7K for it back then though.

[JackIIA]

Nick,

Any update on your quest? I'm eager to spend your cash for you!

[NickDawson]

Nick,

Any update on your quest? I'm eager to spend your cash for you!

HA!
Glad my pocket is not the only place it burning a hole :)

The good news is that I have had some progress - I think I've found a truck!
I'm not quite ready to share details since its not a totally done deal and last time I got excited a little too early.

I'll add this - the advice I got in the short 2-3 months from this group was more valuable than any of the reading and casual searching I had done in the long months prior to joining. I will admit that I made some compromises, but when I found the latest Rover I was confident that I was asking the right questions and knew what I was looking for. So while some may not agree with every detail of my choice, I think it was still a sound decision overall (hey, its got a galvy frame, thats a start).

Fingers crossed that the next week goes well - should have an update then.

Thanks again everyone!

[JackIIA]

Good luck, hope this one works out. Post pictures when it's a done deal (if you dare).

[bmohan55]

Good! Maybe see it on the 6/20 run ROAV is putting together????

Maybe we could caravan from Richmond thru the back roads.

[NickDawson]

Good! Maybe see it on the 6/20 run ROAV is putting together????

Maybe we could caravan from Richmond thru the back roads.
YES AND YES!
Didn't know about this event yet, thanks for the heads up!

[bmohan55]

good, trying to get my wife to follow behind in the Disco to pick up parts and push us off the road when we break down!

[SafeAirOne]

Don't know if you found a rover yet, Nick, but you may want to look into this one. No chassis photos posted, but there seems to be potential here!:

http://www.d-90.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20773

[NickDawson]

Thanks SafeAirOne for thinking about my search.

Fingers crossed, but I should be driving...er...working on a Series III next week