Ooops, I've done it now!

[SeriesShorty]

Had the hood off for a few days for painting. During this time we had 4 days worth of ridiculously heavy rain here in The Lou. I put a bag over the carb, the coil and the voltage regulator figuring a little bit of rain wouldn't hurt the shielded 24 volt system too bad.

Well, the rain stopped and I put the hood back on. It started right up but was misfiring like crazy. Let it dry out for a few days, still running terrible.

Took the plugs out and the cap off and cleaned/dried everything up. Tested the compression while I was in there and was pleased that I have an even 110 across. :) Noticed that one of the shielded plugs seemed a little discolored. Put it into a different cylinder to see if I could notice any change in the idle.

Buttoned it all back up and now it won't start. Starter turns over but the darn thing just isn't starting.

It's a 24volt shielded system so it's not like I can just run out and get some tune-up parts. Plus it's going to be in the high 90's all week here so can't spend much time going hit or miss.

Any suggestions on what to try to get it running again so I can save my poor body countless hours in the sun making no progress?

Thanks much!
Jen

[SafeAirOne]

Hate to suggest something so obvious, but did you put all the plug wires back in the right place, firing-order wise?

[Tim Smith]

Is that plug any good? Try putting it back where it was prior to the no start condition?

I'm wondering if there isn't a spray cleaner (brake clean?) that would absorb and remove any water you might have on the electrics.

[NickDawson]

I'm wondering if there isn't a spray cleaner (brake clean?) that would absorb and remove any water you might have on the electrics.

I think we've established that I'm a novice here... but isn't WD-40 reportedly good for that? I've often heard its good for removing moisture from distributors, etc

[SeriesShorty]

Thanks guys.

I did try the wd-40 first, but everything felt really greasy. I wiped down with a rag and then used a bit of starting fluid. Maybe I should run up and get some electrical contact cleaner and do a thorough soaking.

The military shielded wires are stamped with their location 1 thru 4 front to back, as opposed to stamping them based on firing order of 1, 3, 4, 2. Maybe someone else here with a shielded system could check theirs as I was suffering from heat exhaustion and things were getting a little fuzzy when I put it all back together. It's a seriously ridiculous crazy summer in St. Louis...94 this weekend will be our only cool spell in 2 weeks and I have no shade in which to work.

Good idea about swapping the suspect bad plug back into it's original location, if for anything but to duplicate my prior problem.

It's definately getting fuel so I've ruled that out but it won't even start with starting fluid.

The heat index is already at 105 but I'm gonna at least try to swap that plug back.

If ya don't see me back around today someone call 911! :p

[SeriesShorty]

Got some electrical cleaner and dried everything up good again.

Swapped the plugs back to their original position. Checked the wires for proper location.

Still no start.

It's gotta be something in the ignition system. I might as well do the partial 12 volt conversion for the ignition bits since it'll be cheaper to buy all those parts then hit or miss on the expensive 24 volt tune up kit. I just hate doing it with an unknown issue.

I need to make a t-shirt now..."I survived the heat index...St Louis Summer 09" LOL

[mechman]

Check the "black box" output lead to the coil - disconnect it from the coil and use a voltmeter to check the voltage. The resistor box not only shields the radios from RF interference, but it drops the voltage to 12V for the ignition components. Inside the black box is a voltage resistor - it's a coated ceramic wafer wrapped in wire. Over time, the ceramic loses its insulation properties and starts carrying the full voltage across its surface (24V in - 24V out, should be 24V in - 12V out).

If your positive lead into the coil is putting out 24V, you have to rectify the situation quickly before you fry the coil. I used to use a marine grade voltage splitter inline on the hot lead going into the box, discreetly mounted to the bulkhead. Then again, I also used to swap out the 24V ignition for a stock 12V and delete the box altogether. It's your call.

[SeriesShorty]

Mechman, thank you so much, that is very helpful. I will check that in detail tomorrow as I remember briefly playing with the voltage regulator and I swear I remember 24v going out.

If I find 24v when I recheck I will give you another shout for some more specific info on how you did your set up.

Cool, there is hope yet! :thumb-up:

[mechman]

I just re-read your original post. I hate to say it, but it sounds like your coil may already be fried.

The "24V" (actually a shielded 12V) coil is pretty robust. It can handle 24V being pumped into it for an amazing amount of time (up to a few days) before expiring. They do not do so without complaint, however. Improper voltage will cause the engine to seem to misfire, and generally make it run rough. That is the symptom that tells you that something needs to be fixed ASAP. Since your Rover isn't firing at all, I'd say the poor bugger had its final meltdown.

Doing a conversion is simple. You'll need a 12V coil, distributor, cap, rotor, plugs and wires. You'll also need a voltage splitter (24V in - dual 12V out), preferably one that is sealed against the elements. Install the ignition components as normal, and remove the filter box (the infamous black box that feeds the coil). Plug the 24V lead that comes from the harness to the black box, into the splitter, then run a wire from one of the 12V outlets to the new coil (I liked to use the other for a stereo, though I also used it once for a work light - if you have a Weber carb, you could be slick and run it to the 12V choke). Adjust your timing and Voila!

If your 24V setup was still good, and you don't mind paying a small fortune for tune-up parts or you're into originality, you could have just disconnected the hot lead into the black box and put the splitter in its way. The filter box would still have worked fine with 12V going through it, and your ignition would have loved you. Given that your truck is no longer firing at all, you'll have to replace the coil at the least.

This same problem (mainly the rough running leading to coil failure) drove me NUTS until I compared a good working system to the faulty one. I pulled both trucks' systems apart and compared the parts individually, then reassembled both systems and tested the function of each part as I did. That's when I discovered that 24V ignition systems in FFR trucks are really 12V systems with a voltage reducer in the box. Funny thing is, NOWHERE in the official repair manuals does it mention this little tidbit of info.

[scatterling]

Mechman, do you, by any chance, have the make or model of splitter you're describing? Thanks

[mechman]

Neil, I wish I did. I remember that I found it online after a Google search, that is was marine grade, and that it was pretty versatile - it would split 24V down to two 12V OR 12V down to two 6V leads. The casing was maybe 10 inches long, 4 or 5 inches wide, pretty flat black plastic and fit behind the engine on the firewall. It looked a lot like an aftermarket car stereo amp. It wasn't cheap, but it worked like a charm.

Frank

*Edit: After a quick search, I think I found it! The Alphatronics 24VDC to 12VDC non-isolated converter looks right. You can check them out at:

http://www.alphatrononline.com/

It wasn't cheap, but it looked to be as rugged as the Rover it was going into. :D

[SeriesShorty]

Thanks Frank for all of your experience and help! :thumb-up:

My problem ended up being a bad voltage regulator which definatley in turn fried the coil causing my no start issue.

I did indeed tackle the partial conversion to civilian components at the same time since I could do the entire conversion for much cheaper than what a new military coil and regulator would cost me.

I ended up ditching the voltage regulator altogether and used a voltage reducer. An Opek VR-15 I got off of eBay for about $35. It is good for 15amps which should be more than enough to power 12v to the ignition.

I ran the 12v outta the reducer to a distribution block. From the distribution block I ran power to the coil to run the ignition system. Now I have an easy way to tap 12v for additional accessories, of course with care not to pull more than the 15amp rating of my reducer. Once my interior is finished I'll be able to add power outlet to the dash to run my GPS and also install my CB.

I can't say I didn't run into roadblocks, I've never really messed with a distributor based truck so there was a large learning curve. After days of tinkering, posting questions, more tinkering, I finally hit pay dirt tonight. When that engine turned over and fired up I jumped and did a little jig in front of my truck!

So not only did I fix my original problem, but my tune-ups will be cheap with parts easily found.

Yippee!!!

[scatterling]

Maybe Frank can help on this but the military coil is a 10 volt oil filled coil that uses a resister in series found in the filterbox to allow it to work. The 24-12v reducer you purchased puts out 13.8 volts. Maybe fry coil?

[SeriesShorty]

Hey Neil, a faulty original voltage regulator had already taken out my military coil, the regulator was putting out the full 24v! :eek: No wonder it ran like absolute crap until it finally went ka-put altogether.

I'm now running an Accel 12v coil off of the reducer. That should be ok? :confused:

[mechman]

Usually coils are safe up to around 15V. Some alternators spike out around 14.8V in high charge mode, so they have to be able to handle that voltage regularly. The military coils are indeed oil filled (like a Bosch blue coil), but every 24V truck I tested that was running properly was putting 12V out of the filter box, as I remember (it's been a few years). The Accel coil is pretty robust, so it should handle the 13.8V just fine. Any 12V coil with a built in resistor should be fine. I tend to shy away from the Accel units myself, mostly due to their size and because I think they're kinda ugly. :D

I find that voltage splitters tend to work better when they have an even dual 12V draw.
That's why I suggested hooking up the electric choke on a Weber carb equipped truck - the draw is steady, and concurrent with the ignition being on.

FYI the resistor in the filter box is pretty easy to find, and if you could buy the part it would be easy to replace. If you pop the lid on it, and follow the shielded cable back into the box, it's a bare-copper-wire-wrapped off white, rectangular ceramic wafer/block, about the size of an open pack of matches, just inside from the coil feed cable. As I remember, it can be removed by taking out a couple screws. The ceramic shorts across its surface (if you probe it with your voltmeter, you'll see it), carrying 24V from in to out. I tried cleaning a couple with different cleaners, in case it was an outside contaminant causing the short, but I came to the conclusion that the ceramic was conductive but had originally been coated, and the coating had worn off. I had considered carving a block out of phenolic plastic and swapping over the windings, but I never had the time. It was easier to drop in and hide a voltage reducer and call it done. Our customers appreciated the lower labor cost, too.

All of this was discovered through trial-and-error testing of similar FFR Series III 109's. The one that gave me fits initially was a lightweight that ran like cr@p and killed two coils after I rebuilt the engine (it had been sold while I was out after major eye surgery, so I didn't know how it ran before it was sold and blown up). The over-voltage took me a while to diagnose - I initially thought it was a carb issue. I eventually pulled in a couple good running 109's and tore into them with my voltmeter to get my answers.

Frank