Engine questions (in prep for another road trip)

[NickDawson]

Hey guys,
I hope my "prolific" posting isn't clogging up the board too much - trust someone will tell me when it is.

We are loving the rover! Everyone was right, I drive it far more than I expected. And so far, everything has been fairly solid for running around town.

I am starting to see some things that make me wonder if they need attention or are just normal for a series truck.



Engine performance - mostly surprising. Able to actually pick up speed (albeit virtually unnoticeable) when climbing hills in 4th with OD engaged. But when I step on the gas, there is a particular point where the truck jerks a bit then punches forward. In my uneducated opinion its almost like the throttle valve sticks a little. Could it be related to:
Oil in the air filter pan - not a lot, almost a light film. The filter itself is fairly clean. After about 500 miles I have gone from Full on the dip stick to Low (its a series truck, it leaks, I know) but could that also be related to....
the littlest bit of coolant leaking onto the block, could be coming from the thermostat (I think thats where it is?, connection from hose from block to radiator), can't quite tell. Coolant levels are still high. No overheating issues, which leads me to:
dieseling - doesnt happen often, but has happened a few times, particularly when running errands, frequent stops and starts of the engine, lasts for less than 10 seconds
transmission has a nice film of oil (and road grime) coating it - mentioned this one before and still waiting on the workshop manual to learn how to check the fluid there. Any cause for alarm in the mean time?


So I guess I have two questions - in addition to the issues above.

1) are these normal items? I've read other threads on dieseling and done some googleing on oil in the air filter - neither sounds like the the kind of thing that would prevent one from driving around town. Are they more serious, in part or in total? I'm a little concerned about the head gasket, and think a compression test may be helpful (got a local friend I need to hit up for a favor), but generally the engine is peppy.

2) are these the kind of things that would make you think twice about at leisurely 300 mile round trip over the weekend? Of course we'd keep an eye on fluids, etc... I just don't want to harm anything or get stranded.

Thanks as always for the continued education!

[KevinNY]

Check your timing to cure the dieseling. Everyones gearbox is covered in oil from the leaky shift selector shaft seals, they never hold oil.

[Eric W S]

Just because it's a land rover doesn't mean it's "supposed" to leak.

Pressure wash the engine and transmision/transfer case. Get them clean and find out where they are leaking and replace the seals as needed.

You're air filter could be a K&N type that requires oil in the filter element by design...

Kevin hit it on the head. Re-time the engine. I'd adjust the valves first, then time the engine with a vaccuum gauge. Google using a vaccuum gauge as it can tell you a lot of very important things about your trucks health...

[mechman]

Which carb do you have on your truck? If it's the Zenith or Solex/Zenith, that hesitation upon acceleration is usually caused by a cranky accelerator pump. Pop the top off the carb, pull out the piston and gently polish it to a shine with a piece of crocus cloth, lightly smooth the bore it rides in with the same crocus cloth, then make sure the ball bearing type check valve in the bottom of the bore is both a little loose (should rattle when you shake the carb body) and VERY clean. It's VERY common for crud to collect here. This wears scratches into the piston, which causes it to not operate smoothly, and also causes the ball valve to gum or jam up. Clean the carb body inside both the accelerator pump bore and the float bowl until it's all squeaky clean. You'll know it's clean when the inside of your carb no longer changes color to brown or tan as it dries.

Put it back together and you should see a VAST improvement. I used to cruise the 109s at the shop down Rt. 95 at 70 MPH WITHOUT an overdrive. Seriously.

As KevinNy said, check your timing for dieseling.

I hate to say it, but unless you take it apart and reseal EVERYTHING (and I like to use Permatex 3H on my gaskets), you'll be chasing oil leaks. Always carry several quarts of both engine AND gear oil with you. Think of it this way - anything downstream is constantly getting rustproofed. Including the car behind you.

The coolant leak, though, that should be repaired ASAP.

Mech

[Bertha]

What oil filter do you have-the original oil bath type or something different?

[greenmeanie]

Hey guys,
I hope my "prolific" posting isn't clogging up the board too much - trust someone will tell me when it is.


I am starting to see some things that make me wonder if they need attention or are just normal for a series truck

Oil in the air filter pan - not a lot, almost a light film. The filter itself is fairly clean. After about 500 miles I have gone from Full on the dip stick to Low (its a series truck, it leaks, I know) but could that also be related to....
the littlest bit of coolant leaking onto the block, could be coming from the thermostat (I think thats where it is?, connection from hose from block to radiator), can't quite tell. Coolant levels are still high. No overheating issues, which leads me to


2) are these the kind of things that would make you think twice about at leisurely 300 mile round trip over the weekend? Of course we'd keep an eye on fluids, etc... I just don't want to harm anything or get stranded.

Thanks as always for the continued education!

If you have a hose connected from the rocker cover breather to the air filter pan you will always get some oil in the intake. As long as it is a film and not a flow your good.

The oil depletion is the only one that would worry me. I can usually go between 3K mile oil changes without a top up. The most I'd be happy with adding over that time is a quart. Your consumption/leakage seems high.

If it were me I would take the truck to a jet wash and clean the bejeesus out of the engine bay. Run it home once it will start again and then start looking for oil leaks. Address these. I usually don't bother with the paper gaskets and instead use the 'Right Stuff' for most joints. It seems to keep the oil on the inside more effectively.

As a matter of course for a new old vehicle I would also replace all the coolant hoses and install new clamps. The same applies for the fan belt. A little grease on the hose barb does wonders for being able to remove the hose in the future. If that doesn't cure your coolant leak then start stripping the obvious and replace all the gaskets.

I would also see about giving the truck a good tune up before getting too wild on chasing other stuff. One of the best single improvements you can make is ditching the points and put in electronic ignition. Set the valves, time it and all the rest. Getting a compression test is useful if for no other reason thatn it gives you a baseline to compare to in the future.

I used to slog 1000 miles a week in my truck. Bits fell off and others stopped working but as long as I kept the fluids in the right places she never failed to get me home even if it was limping, farting and grumbling.

[thixon]

"Oil in the air filter pan"

Your use of the word "Pan" makes me wonder. Do you have the stock air filter? If so, its supposed to have oil in it.

[NickDawson]

thanks gang

here's the air filter - I think its a ford filter sitting atop a webber carb
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3594/3610771901_8ebf3477f7_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/3610771901/sizes/o/)

its a 2.5l motor btw.... spent some time yesterday familiarizing myself with exactly what each part is. Its at once very simple and very complex. I can identify most of it, but everywhere you look are delicate little springs or screws or cables - I have this vision of a "simple" job being much more complex in reality.

I'm going to top off the oil ASAP and keep a very close eye on consumption to make sure I'm right about the rate.

I'll also replace the hose and clamps between the block and radiator tonight and see if that clears up the coolant drip.

Next steps sound a big complicated to me, but not out of reach for a weekend project (but not something I'm going to try before this weekend - meaning we'll take one of our more modern cards on the trip).

[Les Parker]

So, what with the oil bottle in the background?
Looks like 2 barrel Weber on the 2.5, does it run OK?

[NickDawson]

So, what with the oil bottle in the background?
Looks like 2 barrel Weber on the 2.5, does it run OK?

Seems to run well minus a little hesitation about 1/2 way through the throttle advance

I love this - thats not an oil bottle, its the "alarm system"
I need to get some detailed pics of it before I finish ripping it out.

[NickDawson]

Updated

The throttle issue seems to be user errors - lubed up the accelerator and I think all is well... chalk that one up to being a newbie.

The oil does have me a bit concerned as it happily drank 2 quarts and might even take another. I'll keep a close eye on it.

I got up the nerve to change out the gearbox oil and the local auto parts store only had SAE 80-90 - the guy tried to tell me it'd be just as good as 90/90 - told him I had to consult my experts...so, thoughts?

a 20 minute trip around town produced no coolant leaks. But I have included a pic of the suspicious area below - to be safe, I cranked the hose clamp down.

for those interested, more pics of the carb setup:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2569/3744591712_704fd66306.jpg?v=1248220219

coolant leak - note on pic at flickr site (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/sets/72157621769511132/)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3473/3743796529_f2a9244172.jpg?v=1248220235 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/3743796529/in/set-72157621769511132/)

[adkrover]

I'll make a guess and say the oil in the breather is blow by from the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) valve. Is there a hose from the valve cover to the breather?

[mechman]

That's your heater control valve. It's not unusual for them to seep a bit, but don't take that as permission to allow it to leak. Since you've tightened the clamp and the leak seems to have disappeared, you may have solved the problem. I'd keep a wary eye on the bugger though. Replace it if you see it getting wet.

On second thought, having re-read you original post with fresher eyes, your oil consumption has gotten to a fix-it level IMO. It's time to power wash the engine and trans and find the big leak. The little bit of oil in your air cleaner is not unusual, as it looks like the breather is hooked up to it. But going through that many quarts in such a short time is not just typical seepage.

80W/90 oil should be OK as a replacement, as long as you're using gear oil. It's getting tough to find straight 90W in my area, too. I've been using 80W/90 for years with no problems.

Mech

[rbonnett]

Have you thought about going with a synthetic for the 90W? It does cost more, but for me its made a big difference in noise, heat and smoothness of working the gear box. If there's a significant leak, I'd hold off on the switch cuz of the $$$.

[NickDawson]

Have you thought about going with a synthetic for the 90W? It does cost more, but for me its made a big difference in noise, heat and smoothness of working the gear box. If there's a significant leak, I'd hold off on the switch cuz of the $$$.

Not opposed to synthetic if people like it - but I didn't see *anything* in 90W at the local auto parts store...

[NickDawson]

Well, now I'm not so sure its the gearbox thats leaking, the entire underside is covered in oil. When I first got it I spent a lot of time underneath and it was definitely not like this... it seems to have gotten worse in the last week or two...

Maybe I over filled it when I added the 2 qrts of engine oil last weekend... or maybe I've got some serious seal issues.

At the risk of sounding too ignorant to own a car - can someone confirm the proper place to add engine oil?

I don't have a lift (I do have a snazzy new hi-lift jack though). Whats the best way to approach this? Should I order seals and then take it to a local shop and just have them all replaced? I'm worried that is a bigger project that I can tackle under the shade tree - or am I wrong about that?

I'll start with the suggestions in this thread and power wash and see what I can find...as soon as I find a power washer (mine is broken :( )

http://gallery.me.com/nickpdawson/100097/photo-202/web.jpg?ver=12485424760001

http://gallery.me.com/nickpdawson/100097/photo.jpg?derivative=medium&source=web.jpg&type=medium&ver=12485421600001

[mechman]

Clean off the engine, run it a bit, then see how high up it's getting wet. That's the level of the seal that is leaking. Given that your underside seems to be wettest, it's probably not your valve cover gasket that is leaking. My guess would be the rear main seal has gone, but it could be your oil filter or pan gasket.

If you have some time and hand tools, you can fix just about anything on your Rover. Don't be afraid of it, Rovers were meant to be fixed in the bush. Since you have a civilian frame, you'll have to pull your floors and seat box to get the transmission out (military chassis have a removable trans crossmember). Once you have the trans out, changing the rear main seal isn't a huge deal. It will take you a few days though, and you should replace the clutch assembly while you're in there, not to mention the trans input shaft seal, among others.

Mech

[NickDawson]

think we lost some notes over the weekend...

update:

powerwashed
overdrive oil full
engine oil maintaining (over course of a week and 20+ miles)
since washing, no new drips on pavement


Adkrover suggested that this was the bell housing drain for post-fording
There does seem to be quite a bit of oil around the housing and coming from the drain...could this be my source?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2535/3759049751_c023d7287e.jpg?v=1248647036

[TSR53]

think we lost some notes over the weekend...

Yup, sorry server hickup... :o Mostly all restored, must rely on your memory for weekend posts.

[NickDawson]

More updates - after sitting in a new place for a day, I am closer to the source of the leaks...I can trace the puddle under the truck to one of two likely places.

I'm hoping this is it...the pan seems to be dripping
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2652/3762980839_3ca0c970ea.jpg

of course, that could also be the lowest point....

I still need a better power wash, the car wash version didn't cut it.... there also appears to be fresh oil around this cable and its housing. Is this the clutch cable?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2485/3762980791_35cbb31367.jpg
Pumping the clutch didn't produce any noticeable difference in the leak

I think I'll go head and order a new pan and gasket and hope thats it. BTW - anyone know those part numbers? Not sure of the descriptions here: http://www.roversnorth.com/store/c-51-gearbox.aspx

Who knew - the iPhone is the best tool I have right now :D actually, Its this group, the iPhone just helps me get the visuals

[rbonnett]

Looks like your Xfer case is leaking- you can drive it to wrm up then wipe it down good. Come back and see if there's fresh oil there that hasn't run down from higher up. If its leaking - replace the gasket, don;t forget to use a sealer on it. Also, I think someone suggested checking the pan cover for flatness while its off for the gasket.

The second one looks like the Xfer case end of your speedo cable. Are all 3 screws in place? Its a pain getting them in when the cable is reattached - so sometimes one may be missing altogether - or they got cross threaded.


More updates - after sitting in a new place for a day, I am closer to the source of the leaks...I can trace the puddle under the truck to one of two likely places.

I'm hoping this is it...the pan seems to be dripping


of course, that could also be the lowest point....

I still need a better power wash, the car wash version didn't cut it.... there also appears to be fresh oil around this cable and its housing. Is this the clutch cable?

Pumping the clutch didn't produce any noticeable difference in the leak

I think I'll go head and order a new pan and gasket and hope thats it.

Who knew - the iPhone is the best tool I have right now :D actually, Its this group, the iPhone just helps me get the visuals

[NickDawson]

Looks like your Xfer case is leaking- you can drive it to wrm up then wipe it down good. Come back and see if there's fresh oil there that hasn't run down from higher up. If its leaking - replace the gasket, don;t forget to use a sealer on it. Also, I think someone suggested checking the pan cover for flatness while its off for the gasket.

The second one looks like the Xfer case end of your speedo cable. Are all 3 screws in place? Its a pain getting them in when the cable is reattached - so sometimes one may be missing altogether - or they got cross threaded.

This is why i love this board! Thanks Rbonnett - that will be my plan of attack tomorrow evening.

I was thinking about that gaskey and seal on the xfer case... let me wipe and drive as per your suggestion before I order something I dont need... but rather hoping thats it b/c it seems simple by comparison :)

also glad to learn that is the spedo cable - was reading the other threads about the spedo and how it attaches to the power train at some point... glad to know where it is. Again, waiting on the WSM (arriving tomorrow). I'll check those screws ASAP.

[Tim Smith]

If you think the leak is coming from the pan on the transfer case, be sure to take a good look at it and make sure it's not rusting through. I had one do this and although it just looked a little rusty, well maybe a lot, it was actually porous and was weeping oil.

[NickDawson]

Thanks Tim - I'm thinking about replacing the pan and gasket as a first step.

A gent and rover guru from the UK on flickr saw my pics and suggested that the xfer case may just be over filled and this the oil around the spedo cable. Going to confirm all the levels tonight - but that would strike me as a nice outcome

[Tim Smith]

No problem and yes, your guru could be right.

Now if your transfer case is too high, be sure to check the transmission. If it is too low then you might have a bad transmission output seal. When they go bad, the oil from the transmission basically gets pushed into the transfer case while you are traveling down the road.

This is just a big nuisance if you ask me. It's a pain to get at the transmission output shaft but it is doable. Alternatively if you leave it alone, you can look forward to your rover marking it's territory everywhere it goes and of course you checking the transmission levels on a regular basis. Still drivable though so long as you watch your levels.

The transmission output seal is such a cheap part but that pan on the transfer case would be so much easier to replace. ;)

[NickDawson]

one small step for the rover, one giant step for me...

checked all the transmission and transfer case fluids tonight. Gearbox and overdrive are full - if anything the gear box was over filled, when I pulled the fill plug I got a slow drizzle.

I did have to add about 1/2 quart (or less) to the transfer case which produced a small drip again at the bottom of the pan.

Going to start with replacing the pan cover and seal and go from there.

[Tim Smith]

That is good news if you ask me. While you have the transfer case pan off, do yourself a favor and clean the heck out of it. Make yourself absolutely sure it isn't leaking so we can move on to other possibilities. Also be sure to straighten it out if needed, from past over torquing.

The thing about rovers is, you got to find out what it isn't.

[NickDawson]

Alright!
My first mechanical forte ever!

I replaced the gasket on the transfer case sump today, so far it appears to be leak free. It was an adventure, but all in all fairly easy. The only tricky part was the drain plug - I was not able to get it out so I simply loosened the nuts around the plate and let it flow out from the leaky corner.

In retrospect that appeared to be a good move since it looked like there was a copper crush gasket on the drain and I didn't have a new one. The old gasket was clearly damaged so I washed everything up with petrol and used a chisel to make sure the surfaces were clean. As per Steve's (with our hosts) suggestion, I applied a thin bead of silicone around the seal as well.

I added a gallon of SAE 80-90 oil back in and so far it appear to be doing alright...

While I was tinkering, I got the electric cooling fan working again by simply writing it straight to an ignition switched fuse on a distribution block under the hood. Ultimately I think I need to sort out the thermostatic control that was there or at least add a switch since its rather noisy. I ran around town for some errands and let it idle - the fan made an amazing difference. Should I disconnect the belt-driven fan?

Finally my new pop rivet gun arrived this week so I finished up the soft top - much better than looping the rope through the grills on the light covers :D

Thanks for all the tips leading up to the the gasket replacement! Fingers crossed that it takes care of my leak

[Moose]

I added a gallon of SAE 80-90 oil back in and so far it appear to be doing alright...



You only filled it up to the fill level plug right? A gallon would be way too much oil. The transfer box only holds 2.5 liters, a little over half a gallon.

Brett

[NickDawson]

You only filled it up to the fill level plug right? A gallon would be way too much oil. The transfer box only holds 2.5 liters, a little over half a gallon.

Brett
Have been wondering about that since I posted it...
Admittedly a fair amount spilled in the process, and once I took the tube (attached to the funnel) out I let some drain out... is it reasonable to assume once it stops draining from the fill plug that its appropriately full?

edited to add - just realized it was a 1/2 gallon bottle, so about 3.5 liters... assuming I spilled/drained 1 liter (still seems a bit much) then I'm guessing its filled correctly.

On a related note, I've noticed that when I check the gear box oil it also trickles out when I open the fill plug. I'd assumed that was because it was warm, but perhaps its overfilled.

That leads to the question: what are the dangers of over filling?

And I still have the most basic question (speaking of oil): where the heck to I add engine oil? The manual says there's a fill cap at the front of the block but my 2.5l doesnt seem to have that. I was looking at Jac04's lightweight pics and saw his new block had a fill port... am I missing something simple? I'm guessing I just pour it in the crank case breather - please tell me thats right :)

[adkrover]

Yes, pour oil into wherever you can, as long as it's somewhere in the lubrication system, as opposed to the cooling, fuel or ingnition systems.

As far as the fans, too cool is generally better than too hot. Too cool will use more fuel but too hot will blow engines.

[Moose]

Well, if you filled the TB through the fill plug, I guess it would be hard to over fill. I find an easier way to fill the box is by removing one of the covers on the top and dumping the oil in that way. Much less messy.

If when removing the fill plugs a bit of oil trickles out, that is not a problem. Thats not overfilled. If it pours out in a heavy stream, then that would be reason for some concern.

As far as your engine goes, if you don't have a fill tube on the right side of the engine or a fill cap in the top of the valve cover, then the breather cap on the vavle cover will be removable and that's where the oil goes in. That's the way it is on my 2.5 diesel.

Brett

[Le Shed]

Oil goes in through the Big black Cap on top of the rocker cover. It should also have a hose going to the carb if it is a 2 barrel weber. That engine should have no trouble doing 70mph. Have one in my 109 and fully loaded it still keeps up. Just duck tape everything down and wear ear defenders. If you have an overdrive it will go even faster if you are brave enough. Engines are super tough and last a long time. Only problems I have had with mine were replacing timing chain/gears and new distributor. New distributor made a huge difference to a smooth idle. Using a rover oil bath type air filter is cheaper in the long run and gives you more access to the car. However it looks like you would need the plastic elbow that bolts onto the top of the carb that the hose attaches to.
Have fun
Bill B