timing a series III w/ a 2.5l

[NickDawson]

Hey folks - picking up from my carburetor adventures http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7449&page=4
I took Kevkon's advice and invested in a timing gun.

Here's what I've learned: the distributor rotates & I dont know what I'm doing.

I was actually surprised, I got the gun hooked up, pointed it down and there was the timing mark and the notch on the crankshaft...how cool!

I noticed it was a little retarded (I think - looking top down, notch on crankshaft was right of the mark)

I loosened the distributor and rotated it until the engine revved faster and the notch moved and centered on the mark...sorta, it had a lot of vibration. Hitting the throttle still produced a lot of backfire - in fact, there were flames coming out of the exhaust!

I advanced the timing further - still backfire, still shot flames...

I went he other direction, just short of stalling - still backfired.

So - am I doing this wrong, or have we ruled out the timing?
Regardless, where should I leave it? Dead on the notch aligning with the mark?

[kevkon]

Nick, there is an order to follow in timing your engine. You should have both the valve clearance and the contact point gap set correctly before anything else. If you have done this then check the ignition timing with the light. Make sure that you disconnect and plug ( vacuum side) the vacuum advance on the distributor before using the timing light. Refer to the specs for your vehicle as for the timing setting, it should be between 3 and 6 degrees advanced.

[Nium]

Nick,
Do you have a distributor with points?

[NickDawson]

Nick,
Do you have a distributor with points?
yes

[Tim Smith]

Flames at the exhaust? Oh, I want to see that. :D

I think Kevkon is right about the approach to take here.

[NickDawson]

Flames at the exhaust? Oh, I want to see that. :D
I'll shoot the video tonight - its almost impressive. :D

I'm close to the limits of my tool box and evening tinkering...I made this bed, just have to figure out how to lay in it.... throwing myself a little pity party over here.

Lets say I get the breaks fixed and drive for a while with the whatever is causing the unburnt fuel in the exhaust - how bad would that be?

[TJR]

I had a spark plug go bad (short out?) on my S3 2.25L some which caused backfiring.. raw fuel was making intot the exhaust stream.. then bang every once in a while..

Amazingly the rig still ran well enough to drive but did shutter/vibrate a bit...even thought the timimg and plug wires, dist...etc were all working fine. TJR

[Bertha]

Lets say I get the breaks fixed and drive for a while with the whatever is causing the unburnt fuel in the exhaust - how bad would that be?

Pretty bad-you will eventually blow apart the muffler. You really need to take it step by step-plugs points wires cap timing etc and make sure everything you do is done correctly. When I first started doing this years ago, I worked with someone that knew what they were doing. Trying to get advice for your sort of problems over a message board is tough. You really need to make a "rover friend" with experience, in your area that can show you the ropes.

Make sure your points and condensor are new. In 20+ years of dealing with British Cars, I have very rarely found any of my running problems to be attributed to the carb, yet thats what most people seem to try and mess with first.

[NickDawson]

I had a spark plug go bad (short out?) on my S3 2.25L some which caused backfiring.. raw fuel was making intot the exhaust stream.. then bang every once in a while..

Amazingly the rig still ran well enough to drive but did shutter/vibrate a bit...even thought the timimg and plug wires, dist...etc were all working fine. TJR

Interesting - considering it ran well for 4 weeks with no backfiring, I wonder if I'm in the same boat - checking the plugs is a good idea.


Pretty bad-you will eventually blow apart the muffler. You really need to take it step by step-plugs points wires cap timing etc and make sure everything you do is done correctly. When I first started doing this years ago, I worked with someone that knew what they were doing. Trying to get advice for your sort of problems over a message board is tough. You really need to make a "rover friend" with experience, in your area that can show you the ropes.


As much as it pains me and my wallet, I think we are developing a solid argument for me finding a good shop. I agree- trying to do it on my own at this point has gotten too frustrating to be enjoyable. I'm weighing the fact that I can't do other things - both b/c I dont have a truck and I'm losing my time working on it....

[kevkon]

In 20+ years of dealing with British Cars, I have very rarely found any of my running problems to be attributed to the carb, yet thats what most people seem to try and mess with first.



Have to absolutely agree. Then things go from bad to worse as a new problem gets created compounding the original one. The best approach ( other than seeking professional help) is to check that all related components are in good working order before attempting to adjust or change the settings on anything.

You definitely don't want to operate your vehicle with a mis or backfire. Some of the results may be a bent push rod, burnt or damaged valves, and even a engine fire.

[Nium]

Heya Nick,

1st things 1st, I'm very blunt and I mean no offense.

You need three things for an engine to run...
Air, Fuel, and Spark if one of these is missing no running engine. If one of these is out of adjustment, crappy running engine. Always start repairs with things that wear out.

It's NEVER the carb. Trust me I've learned this the hard way. Your problem with the Landie is the POINTS. You need to adjust or replace them. The Mechanic ya took the Rover too probably didn't think of it because no modern vehicle runs with points. Why becasue they wear out FAST.

You have stated that the rig ran fine for 4 weeks then it started running like crap. It's because as that part of the points that rides on the distributor shaft wears the points open later and close sooner. Thus the coil doesn't build sufficent voltage and the sparkplugs fire a weaker and weaker spark. The timing becomes incorrect because the points are worn and need adjustment. Get a feeler gauge and adjust the points BEFORE you do anymore damage. Stop messing with the carb, well at least till you get the ignition cherry. If the points contact surfaces aren't sharp file them till they are (takes very little filing with a very little file) if they are pitted replace them.

The other big culprit for angst and frustration with a points distributor (hence forth known as dizzy) is the low tension lead. It's the small about 2" piece of wire from the outside of the dizzy to the points. Make sure that wire has continuity. I've had them break inside the insulation and stop the Rover cold I only realized it was broke cause I could faintly see a spark from the inside of the insulation while turning the engine over.

You need to learn how to adjust points because your going to be doing it a lot. Or save yourself from having to worry about it at all and get an electronic dizzy/ignition.

The condensor on the dizzy plate is a capacitor. It reduces the spark between the point's contacts which is suppose to help reduce pitting on the contact surfaces.

Put aside the timing light for now and get a 12 Volt test light or make one. If you purchase one from sears or any auto parts store one side looks like a screwdriver handle with a lightbulb at the tip end which is joined to a needle sharp probe. A wire comes out the handle and ends in an alligator clip. Use this to statically time your rover. It's a lot more accurate then the timing gun becasue you don't need the idle set to a very specific rpm. Read up on it in the green bible.

Learn how to bleed the BRAKES. The easiest way is with a hand held vacuum pump with a resovoir attached to catch the BRAKE fluid. You only have to crack the bleeder screw open an eigth of a turn or so to get it open enough to suck the fluid out. Brake fluid loves water and will draw water out of the air thus it needs to be completely replaced every few years and that's why the HYDRAULIC BRAKE system is suppose to be sealed from the air.

When trouble shooting anything try to think of what part of the system affected moves. Start there. Carbs have very few moving parts. Adjustment screws will never move on their own, if they were right before there is no reason for them to be wrong unless you moved them with a screwdriver. I guess floats can stick but I ain't never seen it except on a carb that sat so long the gas turned to a solid.

Nick you can do it! Rovers were designed to be worked on in the field with a minimum amount of tools. Read the Green Bible, identify the parts in the section your reading, then read it again.

One more thing, THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE POINTS!

Cheers,
"Ronnie"
1968 Series IIA, Petrol

[NickDawson]

Heya Nick,

1st things 1st, I'm very blunt and I mean no offense.

You need to learn how to adjust points because your going to be doing it a lot. Or save yourself from having to worry about it at all and get an electronic dizzy/ignition.

One more thing, THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE POINTS!


Thank you! Not because I'm closer to solving the problem, but because your post gave me cause to take a deep breath and get reinvigorated.

Can someone tell me more about my options for an electronic ignition? I saw someone else (cant find it now) say they are like $30 and a snap to install - if thats the case, sign me up.

I also appreciate your primer - its basic, but we teach "back to basics" all the time in healthcare, you always pick up something new. In thinking about the points and static timing, I get the general idea from reading about it in the Green bible. Based on the feedback to the electronic ignition, I'll wire up a test bulb and go from there.

Brakes - my order for lines and fittings got lost and it was suggested that I try and make them myself out of the local auto parts store. I struck out at the one near me tonight and am still concerned about mating the older 1/4 line from the single circuit to the 3/16" line for the dual. It looks like the lines on the frame are 3/16" - can anyone confirm that? If that is the case the job just got a lot easier. I'm going to take the advice and run new lines, but I'm assuming I still need to mate to the flexible lines or cylinders themselves at some point.

Thanks again guys - know I've been a squeaky wheel, but I am learning and its fun...mostly...sometimes...kinda

last question - pains me to ask this... my father has the theory that when we tried to jump the boat off the rover that it could have burned up the points, that's *exactly* when the trouble started. Is there any validity to that arguement? I feel like I'm calling in to Car Talk...

[SafeAirOne]

...my father has the theory that when we tried to jump the boat off the rover that it could have burned up the points, that's *exactly* when the trouble started. Is there any validity to that arguement? I feel like I'm calling in to Car Talk...

That's some pretty significant information. I would definitely stay away from the carb now. Did you fry the battery or alternator/regulator during the jump start? I can't imagine damaging the points as a result of an unsuccessful jump start, but you could damage a battery or alternator/regulator by accidently reversing the polarity during the jump.

Try swapping in a known good battery and see what happens. I don't think a weak spark would cause backfiring though, unless some plugs are sparking intermittently, sending unburned fuel/air into the exhaust manifold, then lighting it off occasionally.

[NickDawson]

That's some pretty significant information. I would definitely stay away from the carb now. Did you fry the battery or alternator/regulator during the jump start? I can't imagine damaging the points as a result of an unsuccessful jump start, but you could damage a battery or alternator/regulator by accidently reversing the polarity during the jump.

I'm 90% sure the polarity was not reversed during the jump, assuming + on a British battery is the same + on an American marine battery... novice as I am, I know a thing or two about electricity but nothing would surprise me at this point :D

Now, when I picked up the truck up during the import process the battery was dead - jumped and had not been a problem......until now. I do have to jump it if I let it sit more than 24 hours. Going to replace it, but had assumed that had a lot to do with not running at speed. In thinking about it, it doesn't make sense - I've checked the running charge, its about 13v at idle, so if its not charging then the battery must be failing. I had also checked the battery terminals which clock in at about 12.4v, didn't think to check amps at the time

Wonder if we shorted or something while jumping the boat...can't see how, but could have happened.

just don't tell my old man that he might be right as to the root cause :sly:

[Nium]

I would have to disagree with SafeAirOne about the battery alternator route. You ran the rig after water immersion. If the battery were weak you'd notice when you started the rig. If the alternator weren't charging you'd notice it when the battery died. I had an alternator bracket break while driving and figured it out when the battery died within a few miles. Used a pair of vice grips to hold the alternator bracket together till I got home. A kindly State Trooper gave me a jump to get me going again.

Nick, double check your firing order if it's incorrect you could have the dizzy firing on the exhaust stroke. Only takes two cylinders to be firing at the wrong time and it would still run, but backfire like heck. I've run my rig on 3 cylinders because of a burnt exhaust valve. Figured it out when a compression test revealed one cylinder with extremely low compression. If the timing is far enough off it could be firing on the end of the power stroke and would then push the still burning air/fuel mixture out the opening exhaust valve on the exhaust stroke.

Nick wrote on 8/2/2009
"We went out to the river today and the rover made the 15 mile trek on the highway just fine. About 1/2 way though the day the battery in the boat died so I pulled the rover down to the ramp to jump the boat (think I'm a rover novice? you should see me on the water, total mess) - it was in with the water level about at the hubs on the front tires (back dry)...ran fine during that ordeal..."

My guess is that you got the dizzy wet when you went in the drink. The radiator fan would have sprayed water everywhere inside the engine bay. The pitch on most boat ramps is pretty steep so that would put the breakfast even lower then the hubs, right? Which could have lead to water infiltrating the dizzy and fouling the points, cap, and rotor. When I've used a steam cleaner to remove the grim from an engine I'd always have to thoroughly dry the inside of the dizzy. Even if I had tightly wrapped the dizzy cap with a plastic bag. Double check the inside of the cap and rotor button for carbon build up and sand it off as needed.

To check the spark. Take a spark plug out of the head, stick it back in the plug wire and rest the bent end of the plug against a good ground and have someone spin the engine while you observe the resulting spark. Don't hold the plug wire or the plug as you will experience 10,000 volts, shocking! Bright blue spark = very good spark. Yellow spark = not so good.

Static or stationary timing.
I refer you to http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/Distributer.htm. I feel this is a good description of static timing or as she calls it stationary timing, she seems to know her stuff. Actually her site is chock full of useful info on Rovers and her Dormobile is really cool IMHO.

You ever seen the movie "The Gods Must be Crazy"? If that Landie can run then you shouldn't have any problems. Heck, that guy didn't even have brakes just a big rock.

Cheers

[TJR]

Here's an east test to validate proper spark plug ignition, with the vehicle running you can pull off a single plug wire (spark plug end, while wearing a thick glove) and see pay attention to the Engine RPM's drop. You shoud be able to tell by the audible change in the engine speed and noise. Replace the wire to the plug and repeat for the other 3. If one wire when removed doesn't cause a change the RPM , you've narrowed it down to that single electrical path or cylinder. Could be the plug, Could be the wire, could be the dist cap. Simply switching the spark plug wire and retesting as metioned above can help you determine what it is. i.e. does the problem move w/ the wire or stay w/ the cylinder.


A compession test could also determine if there is a burnt or sticky exhaust valve.

The ignigtion of raw fuel in the exhaust could be from the normally functioning other cylinders.

Many years back as kids we used to turn off the ignition while still driving my '69 bronco (No steering lock & usually in front of a buddies house late at night) and then place the key back into the run position.. LOUD BANG as planned !!!! quite impressive until I split a cast iron exhaust manifold and the ruptured the muffler... Who was laughing now!!

Just to back up another posters mention to look at ignition system, I tried to trace a stumbling issue in my bronco , rebuilt the carb, no luck, turned out it was the NEW Napa Dist cap. Changed back to the prior one and the problem went away..


Here's a cool , well written book on automotive design, function and theory, it's not a repair manual and it's not my auction....

http://cgi.ebay.com/Norman-Gibbs-Book-INTRODUCTORY-AUTOMECHANICS-Study-HB_W0QQitemZ130289082632QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Nonf iction_Book?hash=item1e55d5a108&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

I was given the same book as a kid and still refer to it today from time to time. What's cool is that all the systems in your rover are essentially covered in this easy to read and follow book. I think it's basically a Highschool automotive shop text book. The rover is so basic the automotive fundementals apply to it.

Good luck... Talbot

[NickDawson]

Here's a cool , well written book on automotive design, function and theory, it's not a repair manual and it's not my auction....

http://cgi.ebay.com/Norman-Gibbs-Book-INTRODUCTORY-AUTOMECHANICS-Study-HB_W0QQitemZ130289082632QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Nonf iction_Book?hash=item1e55d5a108&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116


Thanks! Good timing (intended :) )




My guess is that you got the dizzy wet when you went in the drink. The radiator fan would have sprayed water everywhere inside the engine bay. The pitch on most boat ramps is pretty steep so that would put the breakfast even lower then the hubs, right?

You ever seen the movie "The Gods Must be Crazy"? If that Landie can run then you shouldn't have any problems. Heck, that guy didn't even have brakes just a big rock.

Cheers
this was about the same time I was troubleshooting a leak and using a power washer frequently. That may prove your theory.

Still interested in an electronic replacement if that could prevent future issues - thoughts?

As for "The Gods Must be Crazy" - its on our Netflix list (top of the queue) after being mentioned in several recent threads. Funny you mention it, I've seen one scene of the movie and its what always comes to mind when Im under the hood.

[Bertha]

Can someone tell me more about my options for an electronic ignition? I saw someone else (cant find it now) say they are like $30 and a snap to install - if thats the case, sign me up.


Nick
Dont keep adding fuel to your fire. The best bet for a novice is to keep things as original as possible, this way you will always be able to use the workshop manual and work with standard values. Don't start messing with an electronic ignition at this point-stick with your points, they are a known value and easy to work with at this juncture.

[NickDawson]

Nick
Dont keep adding fuel to your fire. The best bet for a novice is to keep things as original as possible, this way you will always be able to use the workshop manual and work with standard values. Don't start messing with an electronic ignition at this point-stick with your points, they are a known value and easy to work with at this juncture.

I'm with you in theory - just worried about not knowing what I am doing and causing more problems. Points seem to run about $20 - should I just order a new set?
I'm also working on a non-standard engine - a 2.5l, so Im never quite sure what in the green bible is applicable (in terms of values) and what is rendered moot.

[Bertha]

I'm with you in theory - just worried about not knowing what I am doing and causing more problems. Points seem to run about $20 - should I just order a new set?
I'm also working on a non-standard engine - a 2.5l, so Im never quite sure what in the green bible is applicable (in terms of values) and what is rendered moot.

You need a 90/110 ws manual that covers the 2.5 motor ck w our hosts or ebay.

[SafeAirOne]

Nick--It was the 90/110 Workshop Manual that I was referring to in my PM to you, not the SIII--Sorry I got confused about which one covered the 2.5 P & D. I'll get that taken care of right now...

[NickDawson]

your a saint - thanks SafeAirOne!

[Nium]

The most popular electronic ignitions I've heard of are the...

PerTronix system-bolts inside of the dizzy where the points go.
http://www.shopatron.com/search/591.0?q=LU-142A

Crane XR-700 system-little more involved to install.
I couldn't find a website for these guys

I personally haven't installed or used either so can't vouch for reliability and I'm not endorsing either just FYI.

Not to recommend any other company, as a parts source, 'cause I been shopping with RN for well forever but since they don't offer, as far as I know, anything but OEM style dizzys. BritishPacific.com carries both these dizzys.

Cheers