The plot tickens (series III backfire/idle, brakes)

[NickDawson]

Hey guys, just a quick update...

Took the distributor cap off to inspect the points, and then turned the engine over ... forgetting to put the cap back on. I cranked it for about 15 seconds and then realized what I'd done.

Long story short, if the coil wasn't dead before, then it is now. The ignition lead is strong at 12V and the small lead going to the distributor is strong at 12V, but the lead coming out of the coil to the top of the distributor is dead dead dead. It will slowly discharge a few microvolts but doesnt seem to put putting out anything substantial.

This was confirmed by my the brother of my friend, a mechanic whos is a little red, he used a screw driver and tried to get it to arch off the block...didn't seem wise to me, but nonetheless, no spark.

without the vacuum it was pointless to try and bleed the brakes - right? So we got the back to bleed and called it a night.

So - does a coil fail slowly? Could it be my root cause of the backfiring, etc? or did I burn it out by cracking without the distributor cap in place? It got hot!

Next question - anyone know what kind of coil I need for my 2.5l?

While I had the cap of, I checked the points, they were new and clean, but pitted, going to replace the as well.

Also, to time them, I understand I need to turn the crankshaft - the pulley is held on with a large (guessing 34mm) bolt - nothing I have fits it, and its recessed into the pulley so I can't get a monkey wrench on it. It does not have the groves for a hand crank. Any ideas on turning it over to time the new points?

Finally - brakes, the front two bleeders are rusty and slick with oil and feel like they are stripping - any ideas on getting them open without damaging?

[TJR]

Hey guys, just a quick update...


Also, to time them, I understand I need to turn the crankshaft - the pulley is held on with a large (guessing 34mm) bolt - nothing I have fits it, and its recessed into the pulley so I can't get a monkey wrench on it. It does not have the groves for a hand crank. Any ideas on turning it over to time the new points?

Finally - brakes, the front two bleeders are rusty and slick with oil and feel like they are stripping - any ideas on getting them open without damaging?

I'll have to re-read the first part to better understand what your saying.. ?

As for rotating the points cam(lobe) to open the points w/o using the front pulley.

1.) place car in 4th gear high range T/Case and slowy push it forward. have someone with you to step on the brakes

2.) you may be able to rotate the engine by grabbing and rotating the fan blade(Trans not in gear, car's wheels blocked) which will turn the lower pulley via the v-belt, though you may have the fan shroud in the way.


...Talbot

[TJR]

Here's a web album of a few pages of the book I mentioned to you in your other posting.... Click on the pics to enlarge them....TJR

http://picasaweb.google.com/88seriesiii/Ignition_Basics?authkey=Gv1sRgCPzt7KPUlviJhwE&feat=directlink

[pisten-bully]

Hey guys, just a quick update...

So - does a coil fail slowly? Could it be my root cause of the backfiring, etc? or did I burn it out by cracking without the distributor cap in place? It got hot!

Also, to time them, I understand I need to turn the crankshaft - the pulley is held on with a large (guessing 34mm) bolt - nothing I have fits it, and its recessed into the pulley so I can't get a monkey wrench on it. It does not have the groves for a hand crank. Any ideas on turning it over to time the new points?


Check the wiring, too, before you sign the death certificate on that coil. HT lead could be bad, the ground may be faulty, etc.

Also, if I were you I'd simply go purchase the correct socket for that front pulley so you can turn the crank. But since you don't seem to have the hand crank dog on the pulley, do something like pull the plugs to ensure the engine doesn't fire while you've got a wrench on that pulley... you'd get more than bruised knuckles if it did !

[jac04]

I assume that you have a double groove crank pulley and that's why the bolt is recessed. I'm in the same boat. The socket is 1-11/16" or 43mm. Tractor Supply usually stocks the 1-11/16" socket in 3/4" drive.

[daveb]

Nick

First, do you own the factory service manual for this truck? You are asking some pretty open ended questions that really require long and complicated answers and would best be solved by you acquiring and the manual and following its instructions step by step. The haynes manual also has a pretty good section on ignition troubleshooting.

short answers below:


>This was confirmed by my the brother of my friend, a mechanic whos is a little red,

are you saying he is a redneck? how is that pertinent to the story?

>he used a screw driver and tried to get it to arch off the block...didn't seem wise to me, but nonetheless, no spark.

arc, not arch. what else did he do. did he try to figure out why there is no spark?

>without the vacuum it was pointless to try and bleed the brakes - right?

wrong. no vacuum required. do it with the engine off.

>So - does a coil fail slowly?

never had one fail so I don't know

>Could it be my root cause of the backfiring, etc?

doubt it. most likely it is your haphazard diagnostic and tuning method.

>did I burn it out by cracking without the distributor cap in place?

doubt it. coil will still discharge through the points. do you see an arc there?

>It got hot!

something is not set up properly.

>Next question - anyone know what kind of coil I need for my 2.5l?

yes, the kind our hosts sell. end of story. you can get into parts substitution later in life when you have leanred more of the basics. if RN's price is to high then go somewhere else but don't talk about it here. just make sure you buy one for a LR.

>While I had the cap of, I checked the points, they were new and clean, >but pitted, going to replace the as well.

pitted is not the same as new and clean.

> the pulley is held on with a large (guessing 34mm) bolt - Any ideas on >turning it over to time the new points?

um, a 34 mm socket perhaps?

>Finally - brakes, the front two bleeders are rusty and slick with oil and >feel like they are stripping - any ideas on getting them open without >damaging?

if I get stuck bleeders I pull the rubber bits out of the cylinder and heat the bleeder with a MAPP torch. that usually works. if you can't fathom this then buy new cylinders. again, MAPP gas to get the lines undone or you'll be replacing them too. Keep a fire extinguisher close at hand any time you are using open flame on your vehicle. see what I mean about long answers?

[pisten-bully]

Nick

if I get stuck bleeders I pull the rubber bits out of the cylinder and heat the bleeder with a MAPP torch. that usually works. if you can't fathom this then buy new cylinders. again, MAPP gas to get the lines undone or you'll be replacing them too. Keep a fire extinguisher close at hand any time you are using open flame on your vehicle. see what I mean about long answers?
Heat the cylinder body around the bleeder and/or brake line fitting, try not to put heat to the bleeder screw itself or brake line fitting. You're hoping to expand the metal of the cylinder body enough to allow those things to screw out.

[NickDawson]

Thanks all, I appreciate the input!

I may not be testing it correctly, but I checked every wire coming into and out of that coil. It was dark out at the time, I think we would have seen a spark if there was one. I don't want to be hasty in replacing it, but it really seems to have kicked the bucket.

I retract my statement about the points looking new and/or pitted - frankly I guess I dont know what they should look like.

I'll check around for that 1-11/16th socket today, thanks Jac04.

some pics, for what they are worth...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3522/3859199306_b459b4aeeb_m.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2551/3858409979_61844aed79_m.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2497/3858409725_8545bb0624_m.jpg
this is the connection b/t the distributor and the carb - anyone think that cracked bushing could be a problem?

I don't want to ask the questions the wrong way or sound repetitive, but I feel pretty confident that the coil is dead. I'll call RN and see what my options are.
I'm still curious if the coil was slowing going bad and not delivering a good spark, wouldn't that account for my slight backfiring? Maybe that's wishful thinking.

[pisten-bully]

Thanks all, I appreciate the input!

I'll check around for that 1-11/16th socket today, thanks Jac04.


Save the receipt!

[NickDawson]

Save the receipt!

what am I missing?

[bmohan55]

Not that I am a wealth of experience but your trials and tribulations seems to be mirroring my problems with my recently aquired truck (and our mechanical knowledge seem to match up, i.e. near non-existant) so here it goes.

Get a new cap, rotor, points, condenser, wires & plugs, that way you can eliminate those relatively cheap parts as the problem. Keep the old ones incase they were good so you will have spares. I'd do the distributor parts first , if no change in performance then change the plugs, again if no change then the wires.

The bushing your refer to is the vacuum advance, it shouldn't have anything to do with your problems as it only comes into play at higher engine speeds.

I also stripped out my brake bleed screw so I went ahead and installed new wheel cylinders, again not too expensive and now I don't have to worry about them. Actually one thing lead to another and I re-did the entire brake system, remember whoa is more important than go!

My biggest advice to you is to find someone with basic mechanical knowledge (these trucks are VERY basic) and make him/her your best buddy. I was adopted my the mechanics here at the plant and have learned sooo much by their hands-on training/advice that is impossible to convey via this board. Buy them lunch, dinner or free health care, what ever deal you can strike but it very difficult and discouraging to try to trouble shoot alone at our level. I couldn't have done what I've done without hands-on help.

I'd be willing to help you later on but right know I'm finishing my truck (new distrbutor and u-joints go on tonight) and if I start spending time under another truck right away I believe SWMBO may not be very happy. Give me a week or two!

[pisten-bully]

what am I missing?
You know Land Rovers... no two are alike. So if the socket doesn't fit, take it back and get another!

[kevkon]

I think it would be wise to invest in the proper Whitworth and other tools if you are going to do your own wrenching. For the bleeders use a dedicated bleeder wrench or a flair wrench. Soak it liberally with WD40 and let it sit overnight, then give it a sharp tap. If that doesn't work then resort to the heat method. Just make sure you have a new set of bleeder valves on hand.
As for the vacuum advance, any vacuum leak in the system can cause problems. Your engine is drawing in air which effectively leans out the fuel mixture. In addition the job of the vacuum advance is to advance the timing under no load conditions ( that's when the vacuum is at it's greatest) as when you are running with the throttle closed. So a vacuum leak will not only allow the mixture to lean out it will also prevent the distributor from advancing the spark to the degree needed under partial throttle conditions.

[NickDawson]

My biggest advice to you is to find someone with basic mechanical knowledge (these trucks are VERY basic) and make him/her your best buddy.

Agree with this 100% - just trying to find the right buddy. My neighbor is pretty knowledgeable, but is no expert on Rovers. Together we are better than either one of us on our own. Not the same as having a master mechanic, but its a start.


You know Land Rovers... no two are alike. So if the socket doesn't fit, take it back and get another!
Tell me about it! :D

Kevkon - I'll get that vacuum line to the advance sorted as well.

Ordered a new cylinder (proline), plugs, points, condenser and cap from our hosts along with a new wheel cylinder in case I cant get the bleeder loose.

I also found the 1-11/16th socket on Amazon ($5 and with their prime service, free shipping) along with a set of feeler gauges

If it ever starts again, it will be a miracle, but in the mean time at least it will have a bunch of shiny new parts :D

Thanks again folks!

[NickDawson]

One more question -
The Green bible's limited diagrams show the wheel cylinders on the top of the wheel. On mine, that is true for the rears. But on the front wheels the bleeder is on the bottom. Does that sound correct?

[I Leak Oil]

Sounds like someone put the lefts on the right and rights on the left....Or upside down. I REALLY would like to see a picture of this!

[NickDawson]

Full set here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/sets/72157622029085631/

I'm looking at the 90/110 book I have - these look strangely like defender fronts...
I'd rather someone tell me that I'm just wrong about the location of the bleeder, that its in fact up top and I'm just missing it. Guessing that if they are 90/110 wheels (axle too?) that wheel cylinder that I ordered won't work, is that the case?

Note to anyone thinking about importing a truck: DONT or at least make sure you know more than I did at the time

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3419/3859840883_6eaeff07fe.jpg

[NepentheSea]

you have two brake cylinders on the front. one on the top and one on the bottom. the bleeder screw is on the bottom, same as mine. thats how its supposed to be.

[greenmeanie]

Someone has upgraded your truck to a set of 11" drums from a 109. They do increase stopping power but require a certain skill to bleed properly. You can either modify the line routing to move the bleed screw to the top or remove the backing palte, brakes and all and hold it in an orientation that puts the bleed nipple at the high point of the system.

[NickDawson]

the closer I get...
Just went to pull the wheel and realized I don't own a jack that is tall enough - maybe time to buy a floor jack :D

Going back to the plan of tring to find a local shop. Right now I have a truck that won't start, won't stop and I'm over my head. Thanks for the advice thus far guys!

[NickDawson]

Someone has upgraded your truck to a set of 11" drums from a 109. They do increase stopping power but require a certain skill to bleed properly. You can either modify the line routing to move the bleed screw to the top or remove the backing palte, brakes and all and hold it in an orientation that puts the bleed nipple at the high point of the system.

Thanks Green - the green bible doesn't detail that in the 109 section - is that the standard way to bleed a 109 setup?

[TJR]

Nick... as stated earlier...someone has either upgraded your front brakes or maybe it was an axle swap.
Either way.. I did the same brake upgrage to my Ser III 88 though I've never driven it yet. still slowly rebuilding

In fact the swap I did was exactly what the LR factory did in the 1980's to the Ser III 88's (see pics below)
Pre-june 1980 UK 88's had Frt & Rear 10" drums with a larger front wheel cylinder. F&R drums and brake shoes were the same.

The upgraded 88 system is basically this...
Use 4 cyl 109 11 drums, backing plates, shoes and dual wheel cylinders up front
use the orignal 10 drums, backing plates , shoes in the rear, BUT use the original 88" 10 brake FRONT wheel cylinders. The larger dia wheel cylinder will then boost the rear brakes.
Now to handle the larger rear wheel cylinders and the 11 dual cylinders.. you need to upgrade to a dual 109 brake master cylinder inorder to have the correct pedal volume. You might want to find out what other compnenets you have in the rear and the master cyl.



Whenever I have a stuck bleader the use of a good penetrating oil is step one. Kroil-oil, PB blaster or Howes Lubricant seem to me to be the best.. WD 40 has never done much for me.

You can get a new bleeder, so if it round over with your 6 (SIX) point socket or wrench... you'll need try really tight visegrips. No 12 point tools to be used here. If you are successfull... here are some bleeding tips..

http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6635

http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php?t=166880


Ref Material for brake setups. though the sketch seems to show the 109 dual cylinders 90 degrees out of position???

http://picasaweb.google.com/88seriesiii/LandRoverBrakes?authkey=Gv1sRgCOOun4WjveuSHg&feat=directlink

[Nium]

Nick,

It'd help if you kept posting to the same thread. That way it'd be easier to reference what you've already said and done.

Take a pic of your dizzy from directly above, with the rotor button off. It kinda looks like the low tension lead is attached to the condenser mount. If that's the case then the points aren't opening the circuit to the coil, which wouldn't allow the coil to fire. With the "-" side of the coil permanently grounded the coil would get really hot from the really strong magnetic field it would be producing.

The low tension lead is suppose to be attached to the points so that it isolates the "-" side of the coil from ground. That way the coil's "-" side is isolated from ground EXCEPT when the points are closed. The condenser should be attached to the same place on the points as the low tension lead.

Here's a sight that explains automotive ignition and it has pictures.
http://www.2carpros.com/how_does_it_work/ignition.htm


Brakes
On the bleeder screws make sure you use a six sided closed end wrench to prevent stripping off the sides of the bleeder screws. PB Blaster is better to loosen frozen threads then WD-40, IMHO.

Some friendly advice. Take LOTS of pictures before you take stuff apart. Then you'll have a visual reminder of what it's suppose to look like.

Cheers

[NickDawson]

Nick,

It'd help if you kept posting to the same thread. That way it'd be easier to reference what you've already said and done.

Take a pic of your dizzy from directly above, with the rotor button off. It kinda looks like the low tension lead is attached to the condenser mount.

Thanks Nium - I'll make a point to stick to this thread only from now on.

I'll work on a better pic tonight, but if it was wired up wrong (I have not changed a thing) why would it have run well for 4 weeks? That site with the animated pics is great - thanks



Now to handle the larger rear wheel cylinders and the 11 dual cylinders.. you need to upgrade to a dual 109 brake master cylinder inorder to have the correct pedal volume.

Does that mean this one that I just installed won't work?
http://www.roversnorth.com/store/p-4758-master-cyl-88-dual-power-series-iia-iii.aspx
And if not - what about the single circuit orignal 88 cylinder that I replaced - was it just undersized? It was stopping fine until it spring a leak.

Regarding the stuck bleeder - it is fully stripped, now that I've gotten through the rust I can see that its basically round. I ordered an 88 wheel cylinder before I realized that it was an 11" wheel. So now what do I need - a 109 front cylinder or can I use the 88 cylinder that I ordered?

[kevkon]

Nick, just my two cents, but if you are going to attempt this yourself I think you should concentrate on one problem at a time. Regarding the brakes, I think you had better determine whether or not you can break free all of the fittings and nuts. That will determine what parts you will need to get. There's no point in rushing to order a brake cylinder if it's the wrong one. Also if you can't free the brake line compression nut or the mounting nuts, then you will need a new line, fittings, and nuts in order to proceed. Once again, make sure you have the proper wrenches to do the job or else you will be rounding over all of the nuts. Pretty soon you will end up replacing the entire brake system.

[NickDawson]

I think you had better determine whether or not you can break free all of the fittings and nuts.
Well, one can of penetrating oil and blaster and two days later and I still cannot get the lugs off, even with a breaker bar. I think the shop that put the tires on played a cruel joke...

Part of the problem is the crappy lug wrench the came with the truck, it keeps popping off. I checked the auto store and couldnt find one large enough. Going to call RN in the morning and see if they have one...

I'm still calling around to find a local shop but not having much luck. I'd prefer to get it knocked out for a reasonable lump sum rather than me buying tools like an air compressor and impact wrench just to get the lugs off.

[Tim Smith]

Did the brakes go out Nick? I'm asking because I'm sort of skipping ahead in this thread and my first thought is that you should just concentrate on one job at the time. If the brakes still work then I'd say table them (American version ;)) until you get the motor running. Then come back to them later.

As for going to a shop, sure you can go for that option but I wouldn't advise it. These trucks do like maintenance and the sooner you can pick up the steps the sooner you'll be able to see your way though these troubles. Besides, it's all very easy.

The coil won't send a charge until the points open. Of course if the points are not really closing, or never closing you'll never trigger the coil either. I'm thinking that the pitting on the points could be a problem or maybe you adjusted the points incorrectly so here is my advise.

With the keys out of the ignition, pop the top of the distributor and rotor and look at where the lobe is on the points. Make sure the lobe is not at the point where it would be opening the points. So long as that's not the case and the points are fully closed then take a piece of fine sand paper, fold it in half so the sandy side is on both sides, open the points with a screwdriver and then place the sand paper in between the points. Once you've got it in there, you want try and sand the points clean. You may end up just pulling the sand paper out, reopening the points, replacing the sand paper and then pulling it out again. Keep doing that until you are pretty confident that the points are clean. You may need to use a clean piece of sand paper to see if it comes out dirty. Once you see that it comes out clean, you should be pretty close to having clean points.

Next you want to adjust the points. You will need to turn the motor over a little bit to get the lobe to open the points. To do this you want to make sure the parking brake is on and that the truck is out of gear. Next, grab your starter handle and insert it into the front crank position, or if you don't have that just grab the belts. Turn the engine little by little until you see the lobe is opening the points at pretty much the most open you can get it. This is the position you need to have the engine at to set the points.

I can't remember the size that the points need to be set at off the top of my head right now but you can just use the cover of a matchbook as your gauge. Take that matchbook cover and see if it will slide between the opening of the points. If it does, then does it slip through without any resistance (gap is too big)? If you can't get the matchbook cover in there then the points gap is set too small. Either way you find it, you will need to take a small screwdriver and loosen the set screw. Loosen it just enough so that the points will adjust but not so much that the assembly just goes way loose. This is a bit of a fine art and will just help you make the fine adjustments. If you can't get it right then you'll just need a second screwdriver to adjust/hold the points as you take your measurements with the matchbook cover. To adjust the points you will see two small grooves in the body of the points assembly and the base of the distributor. It's just big enough for a medium sized screwdriver to catch both sides. Use that point as a lever to adjust the points as you are opening and closing the points to perfection. Once you've go that right, keep the points in position while you tighten the set screw back down again. Don't tighten down too hard or you'll strip the set screw. Just make it good and snug.

Bingo you are done setting the points.

Put everything back together and make sure all the wires are connected. Be sure you haven't forgotten the trigger wire going from the distributor to the negative side of the coil. I always bump mine off in this operation and it's always the thing I forget. :o

You should be good to go now. At this point we can safely say your points are adjusted and that they shouldn't be the point of your problem.

You can't kill the coil by cranking the motor with the distributor cap off. If it was working before all of this, I'd doubt it's broken now. So don't loose too much sleep over that.

Let us know your results.
:thumb-up:

[greenmeanie]

Thanks Green - the green bible doesn't detail that in the 109 section - is that the standard way to bleed a 109 setup?

The manual does not detail this becuase it is not concerned with design flaws and instead tells you how to deal with the system as originally supplied.

The problem with the 11" set up is that you are trying to bleed air out of the system at the low point which makes it very difficult to purge the upper cylinder. The art of the game is to make the bleed nipple the high point.

The recommendation to reroute the brake lines is just knowledge from running this set up on a 101 for a few years and now on my 109. It is a common trick, cheap and simple to do and makes bleeding the big drums easy.

If you don't feel comfortable making brake lines the other method is just bitter experience but more of a pain because you have to strip the brakes to do it.

[Tim Smith]

Oops. Just saw the part that you have ordered the new ignition parts. Okay. You can skip that part about cleaning your points. Just be sure you adjust the new ones correctly and let us know how it goes.
:thumb-up:

[Nium]

I'll work on a better pic tonight, but if it was wired up wrong (I have not changed a thing) why would it have run well for 4 weeks? That site with the animated pics is great - thanks

Sorry Nick, I wasn't sure if you had took the points apart or not. I looked at the other pics of your Rover you've got on flickr.com. The other pic of the dizzy, IMG-0600, made me realize the wire I thought was the low tension lead was just a ground bond wire to the condenser. My bad.

Check that your points are opening it seems like they might not be. They should open 0.014" - 0.016" or as Tim wrote about the thickness of a matchbook cover when the following arm of the points is on the peak of a cam lobe on the dizzy.

I'd doubt the coil is dead. Cranking a few seconds with the cap off shouldn't kill the coil it doesn't have any electronics in it to fry.

To check for spark from the coil.

Turn the ignition on. Have your red friend do his screwdriver thing again , I've done it to check for spark too, and flick the points open with a screwdriver or something similar. You should get a spark. Points are just a simple switch to open and close the connection of the coil to ground.

Your points and condenser look pretty new, by the pics. The points more then likely just need to be adjusted.

Make sure that break in the insulation, of the low tension lead as seen in pic IMG_0600, isn't grounding out to the dizzy body and that the wire inside isn't broken. If it is grounding out. The coil would get really hot by being constantly energized. The coil is suppose to be continually turned on and off by the points really quickly too. Engines run at a few thousand RPM , right?

That crude on the spark plug electrodes inside the dizzy cap, IMG-0602, shouldn't be there. It will inhibit maximum spark from getting to the plugs. Sand it off with a semi-fine or medium grit sand paper. Of course you can compare it to the new cap when you get it.

Glad you liked the auto ignition site I thought the pics might help. If not I felt the animation was neat.

Man I get long winded.

Cheers

[kevkon]

Well, one can of penetrating oil and blaster and two days later and I still cannot get the lugs off, even with a breaker bar. I think the shop that put the tires on played a cruel joke...

Part of the problem is the crappy lug wrench the came with the truck, it keeps popping off. I checked the auto store and couldnt find one large enough. Going to call RN in the morning and see if they have one...

I'm still calling around to find a local shop but not having much luck. I'd prefer to get it knocked out for a reasonable lump sum rather than me buying tools like an air compressor and impact wrench just to get the lugs off.

Try calling a mobile truck tire service company. Their trucks have compressors and air guns. I'd still concentrate on getting it running before getting into the brakes, though.

[NickDawson]

Every time I'd ready to give up you guys come back with more advice that I'm dieing to try... just leave me, save yourselves! :D

Joking aside, I'm coming around to the conclusion that it may not be our weekend ride again anytime soon and I can live with that I guess - but we do have street cleaning coming up so if I can't move it soon, the city may do it for me. ;) To that end, I'm going to take the common theme here and pick a problem - getting it running. Tell me if I'm wrong, but if I had to move it 400 yards to avoid a costly tow, I could at least use a combo of engine breaking and the hand break to bring it to a stop.


Did the brakes go out Nick?

Besides, it's all very easy.

The coil won't send a charge until the points open.

With the keys out of the ignition, pop the top of the distributor and rotor and look at where the lobe is on the points. Make sure the lobe is not at the point where it would be opening the points.

grab your starter handle and insert it into the front crank position, or if you don't have that just grab the belts.

I can't remember the size that the points need to be set at off the top of my head

To adjust the points you will see two small grooves in the body of the points assembly and the base of the distributor. It's just big enough for a medium sized screwdriver to catch both sides. Use that point as a lever to adjust the points as you are opening and closing the points to perfection.


You can't kill the coil by cranking the motor with the distributor cap off. If it was working before all of this, I'd doubt it's broken now. So don't loose too much sleep over that.

Let us know your results.


This is great info - really builds on what I have learned from talking to the guys at RN and the other posts here. Thanks Tim, et al!

Part of the problem is me understanding what the various parts are - I found some diagrams and now think I know what the lobe is (for instance) and the other part is learning how the system works. Its starting to sink in.

I got a set of feeler gauges so in theory I should be good there. I've also go some super fine wood working sand paper - any difference between that and the automotive stuff?

I've tried moving the belts and they just slip, but hopefully the 1-11/16 socket on its way will help me turn the engine. I'm still not exactly clear what I'm looking for but suspect it will become apparent as I get deeper into it - and of course I'll be asking a lot of questions here.



Make sure that break in the insulation, of the low tension lead as seen in pic IMG_0600, isn't grounding out to the dizzy body and that the wire inside isn't broken.

That crude on the spark plug electrodes inside the dizzy cap, IMG-0602, shouldn't be there.

Wow - didn't even see that nick in the insulation - will get right on it, good eye! Again, goes back to learning more about how the system works...I guess that's the benefit of having to do this myself

Thanks again folks, I'll continue to keep everyone posted.

[SeriesShorty]

I can't really help out with your mechanical problems Nick and these other guys have got you covered, but when it's street sweeping time on my street and my truck is down, I put a big note in my road side window glass that says "broke down sorry, parts on order" and they haven't ticketed me or towed me. Of course, they are used to at least one of my Rovers being broke down at any given time. However, your area may be much tougher so use with caution. :p

[pisten-bully]

Nick, The lugnuts on my Rover(s) take a 1 1/16" socket. That's a good socket to have when you own a Land Rover.

There's a thread on this forum about OEM versus aftermarket parts, and I think the same sentiments should apply to tools. Sometimes saving a few bucks on a cheap tool is false economy. So where you ordered the socket from Amazon, that's fine except you have to wait for it and it could be poor quality. Sometimes inexpensive tools work great, sometimes they're junk.

My toolbox has some cheap tools in it, but most are the more expensive brand name tools. For sockets and wrenches... my opinion is that you should stop by a Sears store and purchase Craftsman (certainly not the only option, but most people can find a Sears store near them). That way you've got a good tool, and you've got it now.

[NickDawson]

Sometimes saving a few bucks on a cheap tool is false economy.

Yeah - I'd agree with that. I have a full craftsman wrench and socket set that I love - just nothing that big. I've had it since I was like 7 so its likely that I've lost the 1-1/16th if I ever had it.

After remodeling our house ourselves (where is the internet forum for that!?!?) we got good at determining good tools from rubbish.

My amazon order was a get-er-done thing, but there is a rumor that Sears is sponsoring the classic car show in town this weekend and will have tools for sale at a large tent. This could get dangerous :D !

[bmohan55]

What classic car show???

[galen216]

What classic car show???

x2:thumb-up:

[Tim Smith]

...I've also go some super fine wood working sand paper - any difference between that and the automotive stuff?I think the proper stuff is called emery paper but lately I've just been using plumbers sand paper. If you're doing a remodel, then I bet you have some of that laying around.

Regular fine sand paper should also work but sometimes it leaves some of the sand behind. Just make sure there aren't any grains stuck in between the points when you are done and you'll do fine.

You also have new points on the way right? Once you swap them in, you should still clean these ones up for practice and then keep them on the truck in case the new ones fail down the road. It's a good to have on board sort of thing.

[NickDawson]

Well, I got the new points, distributor cap and coil (hey, why not?) installed.
I was able turn the engine just enough with the pulleys and gaped the points with a feeler gauge. Not going to lie, felt pretty proud of myself.

but it still won't start :(

I checked the fuel lines - they are clear and pressurized (IE fuel spurts out when I disconnect them). I thought there might be a blockage in the carb, but when I move the pump mechanism I can see it spraying fuel into the bowl (understanding that my terms may be incorrect).

I had the key on and examined the points, I manually opened them and saw a spark. Glad I had rubber gloves on... so I'm guessing that means there's at least current moving through them.

Any other ideas? now that I'm looking at the old points (and can tell what the "points" actually are) they look almost brand new. Guessing that was never the problem.

____

Since I had the day blocked off to working on the rover, I am going to jump back on the breaks. Just to confirm that I'm not crazy, the lugs to come off counter clockwise, right? I've got a longer 10' section of pipe and going to give them hell with a breaker bar and 1-1/16" socket before giving up and finding someone with an impact wrench.

[Nium]

Good job! I thought the installed points looked new. Keep them for later.


I got the new points, distributor cap and coil (hey, why not?) installed.

And the rotor button installed too, right? No rotor, no go. :)

Now you need to statically or stationary set the timing (whichever term you prefer). Remember you threw it off in tinkering. Don't use the timing gun.

Once you get the timing set you are going to have to monkey around with the idle adjustment a bit on the carb to get it to idle long enough to warm up to operating temp. Once at operating temp you can set the idle and forget about it.

Have you replaced that torn apart rubber boot on the vacuum advance of the dizzy that is a BIG vacuum leak that needs to be rectified. If you don't have a replacement use duct tape till you do. That should be a fitting available at the local auto parts store in the vacuum fittings aisle/area.


had the key on and examined the points, I manually opened them and saw a spark

A spark from a spark plug or from the coil right? Not a spark from in between the contacts of the points?


Cheers

[Nium]

Make sure the firing order is correct.

With the 1 cylinder set at Top Dead Center (TDC) and the timing mark on the pulley lined up with the timing pointer. The rotor should point to the 1 cylinder firing position of the dizzy cap. The progression of the rotor around the cap should be...

1-3-4-2 (firing order)

It is possible to have the timing mark lined up and the rotor be pointing at # 4 cylinder firing position so make sure # 1 cylinder is at TDC and not # 4.

My method of static timing...

1) ignition off. Remove dizzy cap (leave plug wires connected to cap)
2) disconnect the low tension lead from the points.
3) attach a test light to the low tension led at the points and the other end to the "+" side of the battery (I use the battery cause mines in the engine bay close to the dizzy and I'm assuming yours is)
4) have the # 1 cylinder set so it's just before lining up the timing marks or just a little before TDC on the power stroke
5) the test light should be on
6) rotate the engine by hand till the points just open. The test light will go off when the points just start to open.
7) If the timing mark lines up when the points just start to open. Good to go. If not...
a) loosen the dizzy hold down clamp/device
b) rotate the the dizzy body till the points just start to open with the timing marks lined up.
c)if the timings good clamp down the dizzy.
d) double check by getting #1 set to just before TDC again. Rotate the engine by hand till the timing marks just line up. Watch the test light as the timing marks line up. The test light should go off just as the timing marks line up. If not repeat previous procedure.

8) Reconnect low tension lead to points.

My method varies a little from TerriAnn's ( that I referd you to on a different post) but I like it better because the ignitions off. Either method of stationary timing should work.

[NickDawson]

And the rotor button installed too, right? No rotor, no go. :)

Now you need to statically or stationary set the timing
A spark from a spark plug or from the coil right? Not a spark from in between the contacts of the points?


Cheers

I did remember the rotor button - although not at first, right before I cranked over the engine, it occurred to me :

The engine isn't even making an attempt to fire. How do I set the timing or the idle if it won't turn over? Its like there's no fuel or spark at all.

I saw a spark b/t the contact points when I manually pulled them apart while the key was in the ignition. How bad is that?

_____
Brakes - the stuck bleeder is stuck no more! My front yard looks like the wheel threw up, but after hours of yanking and tugging the lower cylinder came out and I got the bleeder out with a stripped nut tool in my screw gun. Not guessing I'm going to find that screw locally - think I'll replace both wheel cylinders while I'm at it. The top one had a bit of corrosion under the boot. (it also occured to me to scaveng the bleeder from the new 88" cylinder I ordered...which might have done if it were running.

Still unclear on if they master cylinder I installed will work with the 11" wheels up front - I would think so since its a larger dual and replaced the smaller single that was there.

[Nium]

The engine should be OFF when setting the static timing. Mostly because you're gonna need the dizzy cap off to do it.


I saw a spark b/t the contact points when I manually pulled them apart while the key was in the ignition. How bad is that

Not bad at all. Means there is a connection to ground thru the points for the coil.

I posted my method of static timing just before your last post.


but when I move the pump mechanism I can see it spraying fuel into the bowl (understanding that my terms may be incorrect).

When you depressed the accelerator pump (on the carb) and saw a shot of gas go down the carb I'd take that to mean your getting gas. Concentrate on the spark issue.

Take out #1 spark plug. With it out of the engine set it back in it's wire. With the dizzy all together. Rest the electrode end of the plug against a good ground (clean metal part of the frame or engine) turn the engine over. Did you observe a bright blue spark between the spark plug electrodes? If yes your getting spark. Set the timing. If the timings set and your getting spark and fuel. Pull the choke out to it's max and crank for awhile (about a minute or a little more at a time with a minute or two of rest between attempts).

Setting idle. You aren't gonna be able to set idle till the engine runs.

[NickDawson]

Make sure the firing order is correct.

This is very helpful, thanks! only issue is that I can't turn the engine all the way over by hand.

Going on a mission to find an 1-11/16th socket...

[Nium]

Sure you can, take the plugs out and block a wheel and put it in neutral.

[Nium]

3) attach a test light to the low tension led at the points and the other end to the "+" side of the battery (I use the battery cause mines in the engine bay close to the dizzy and I'm assuming yours is)


I just realized I made a little mistake in my instructions for static timing :o.

In step 3) I meant to say you connect the other end of the test light to the points (at the low tension lead connection). Not to connect the test light to the low tension lead wire. Sorry for any confusion. You are looking to use the points as a switch to turn on and off the test light that way you can tell exactly when they open.

[SafeAirOne]

This is very helpful, thanks! only issue is that I can't turn the engine all the way over by hand.

Going on a mission to find an 1-11/16th socket...


Sounds like you have the same crank pulley bolt I have on my 2.5 diesel (there were 3 sizes of bolt heads used). It's a 41mm socket you're looking for, although this site (http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=7880)calls for a 42mm.

[kevkon]

Nick, first off; do you have a proper repair manual? If you don't, I suggest you stop what you are doing and get one. If you do, look carefully at the diagrams and diagnostic proceedures under the relevant sections. A good manual is worth it's weight in gold.
You say you just installed new points, cap, and rotor. Did you compare them closely with the existing ones you repaced? Did you get a new condenser as well? Are you confident all the connections are correct and secure?

[NickDawson]

Sure you can, take the plugs out and block a wheel and put it in neutral.

Maybe I'm missing something - still can only get it about 1/4 turn in each direction. I'm not a weak guy but no matter how hard I yank it hits a spot and will not turn.

I'll see if I can find 41mm and a 1-11/16" ...

When I pulled the plugs they were damp and smelled of gas. They are also pitch black, does that mean it was running way rich?

I do have a set of 4 new plugs, I hate to complicate the diagnosis by introducing a new variable - should I use the new ones?

[NickDawson]

put the new plugs in (call me crazy by according to my feelers they were already gapped correctly) and cranked it for about a minute. It fired once but never caught.

I'll work on the static timing as soon as I find a way to turn the engine... calling it a day.

Thanks for the play-by-play help today

[Nium]

Maybe I'm missing something - still can only get it about 1/4 turn in each direction. I'm not a weak guy but no matter how hard I yank it hits a spot and will not turn.

Ok that's a little odd. It'll turn over fine by the starter, but with all the spark plugs out of the holes, and the tranny in neutral, you can't turn it by hand? I'm not saying you aren't trying, I'm sure you are. There just shouldn't be any resistance at least not that much. My reasoning being that without the plugs in your not working against the pistons compressing the air/fuel mixture so it should turn really easy, and you'll hear a little pheesht as the air/fuel mixture is blown out the spark plug holes. Engines should have very little resistance to turning because if they didn't then all the more gas would be used to just over come the resistance of the engine.

Nick I really want to be wrong about this but I have to ask. When you took off the air cleaner assembly were any of the studs or nuts, that hold the air cleaner assembly to the carb missing? Were any of the bottom electrodes of the old spark plugs bent over more then any others or nicked or marked up like something had hit them? I am really hoping that some foreign object didn't find it's way down the throat of your carb. On that note whenever the air cleaner is off stuff a clean rag in the top of the carb to prevent any foreign matter from dropping into the combustion chamber via the carb throat.

I only ask because once upon a time I had a FIAT Spyder that had studs on the inside of the air cleaner assembly. One worked itself loose and fell down the carb throat. For an instant the throttle stuck open while driving. I worked the throttle a couple of times with my foot and it came unstuck. Months later I pulled the head, for some reason, and there was the stud stuck to the bottom of the head. I figured hey no big deal removed the stud replaced the rest of them with long screws that went thru the top of the air cleaner assembly and put the engine back together. A few months after that the tiny crack the stud had caused in the intake valve, as it passed into the combustion chamber, finally came to be a big crack and the valve head dropped off and completely shattered the piston head. The piston-less crank rod then went thru the cylinder wall. That engine never ran again.

:confused:

[SafeAirOne]

Nick I really want to be wrong about this but I have to ask. When you took off the air cleaner assembly were any of the studs or nuts, that hold the air cleaner assembly to the carb missing?

I was wondering something similar but more disasterous...I don't want to create unnecessary fear, but the 2.5 diesel has a timing BELT (not chain) to time the cam (valves) to the crank (pistons). I'm wondering if the petrol does too.

There is always the possiblility that the pistons are out of time with the valves and are striking the valves as the pistons near the top of their stroke. Being a non-clearance engine, this has always been a danger with the 2.5 diesels, necessitating the religious changing of timing belts at regular intervals.

Again, this would be a worst-case scenario. It is probably something else...

[I Leak Oil]

Maybe I'm missing something - still can only get it about 1/4 turn in each direction. I'm not a weak guy but no matter how hard I yank it hits a spot and will not turn.

Stupid question but is the transmission in neutral when you're trying to turn the motor? When you're looking at the motor from the front of the truck it normally turns clockwise fwiw.

[NickDawson]

All good questions - I actually had the sense to stuff a rag down the intake the few times I had the carb off.

The question does have me concerned. I'm a one man show today, so I put a mark on the crank shaft pully with a marker and spun the starter motor a few times, I can confirm that the starter is turning the engine over. Still doesnt answer why I can't do it by hand.

I also had it in 4th earlier and tried to push it - no dice. Again, not a weak guy here... in fact I had pushed in 2nd one other time. Plus, if it were in gear and I tried to start it, I think I'd feel lt lurching forward, right?

At one point I did engage 4wd low to lock all 4 wheels, right now the shifter is in neutral and the red knob is fully forward (although there have been times when it didn't fully re-engage in 2wd high until you moved a bit).

[Nium]

Nick,

You'll need to perform a compression test before you do anything else to the engine. I just wrote a really eloquent reply that was spell checked and everything on how to perform a compression test but the (expletive of your choice inserted here) forum erased it when I hit the Preview Post button. So, I'll write it up again later. It's not that hard and tells you a lot about the health of the valves and piston rings. Right now though I have to walk away from the computer before I hurt it. I would imagine you can relate after your fun with Rover today.

:eek:

[NickDawson]

Nick,

Right now though I have to walk away from the computer before I hurt it. I would imagine you can relate after your fun with Rover today.

:eek:

You have no idea how true those words ring!

I have the basic idea of how a compression test works - and have been harboring concern about a blown head gasket since the first time I saw coolant on the block (very very minuscule amount which may have been solved by replacing the thermostat and gasket - not sure b/c it has been driven since).

Do these plugs tell anyone anything? When I pulled them out, they smelled of gas. When I run the try and crank it over (15 seconds or so) I can smell gas under the hood - no leaks or drips.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3429/3871022699_b9c12854d1.jpg

[kevkon]

Do yourself a favor Nick and sloooow down! Concentrate on the ignition and getting the motor running before worrying about broken valves and such. Try to keep it simple. Read the manual. Take the ignition diagnostics step by step.

[Nium]

What's the gap on that plug and the other old ones you pulled out?


have been harboring concern about a blown head gasket since the first time I saw coolant on the block

That's not how a blown head gasket manifests. The coolant leaks into the cylinder and is displayed as constant white smoke out of the exhaust after the engine is warmed up and at operating temperature. When the engine is cool, white smoke isn't uncommon due to condensation in the exhaust system being burned off.

[NickDawson]

I've got a compromise...its not exactly quitting...

We have a family mechanic friend about 2.5 hours away who works on Series trucks a lot (has one in his shop now and serviced the Series that got me hooked for years before it was sold). His son-in-law, coincidentally, would be well known to Va rover folks since his family hosted rallies at their farm for several years.

In short, I trust the guy with my truck.

I can get it hauled down there for a reasonable price (thankfully got that option on my insurance). I can't spend a week with this guy, but I can spend an afternoon with him learning. I've asked him to walk me through whatever he does and he's agreed to work with me and show me what's what.

If I can get it running and passing VA inspection for a few hundred (fingers crossed) then its money well spent - and with what I've learned so far I'll be in a MUCH better place to be able to keep it running. I think its the next best think to having a rover sage locally.

Thanks for the help thus far folks, I'll keep you posted!

[Bertha]

I've got a compromise...its not exactly quitting...

We have a family mechanic friend about 2.5 hours away who works on Series trucks a lot (has one in his shop now and serviced the Series that got me hooked for years before it was sold). His son-in-law, coincidentally, would be well known to Va rover folks since his family hosted rallies at their farm for several years.

In short, I trust the guy with my truck.

I can get it hauled down there for a reasonable price (thankfully got that option on my insurance). I can't spend a week with this guy, but I can spend an afternoon with him learning. I've asked him to walk me through whatever he does and he's agreed to work with me and show me what's what.

If I can get it running and passing VA inspection for a few hundred (fingers crossed) then its money well spent - and with what I've learned so far I'll be in a MUCH better place to be able to keep it running. I think its the next best think to having a rover sage locally.

Thanks for the help thus far folks, I'll keep you posted!

This is the best move/plan you have come up with so far. Let us know your findings after that afternoon session with him.

[Nium]

If you wanted to give static timing 1 last go before you had it towed. Put every gear lever in the neutral position. Main gear lever selector, transfer box selector (red knob), and the overdrive gear lever selector (if you have one). I don't really think it's some foreign object in the engine it really seems like you still had the tranny engaged and that's why you couldn't turn the engine by hand with all the spark plugs out. With the tranny in neutral (all selector levers) you should still be able to turn the engine by hand using the cooling fan even with the spark plugs in.

[NickDawson]

If you wanted to give static timing 1 last go before you had it towed. Put every gear lever in the neutral position.

Fairly sure I did that, but could have missed something... will verify tonight since I need it to roll onto the flat bed tomorrow

[NickDawson]

Why can't i quit! :D
Its soooo close to firing, if I crank it or 30 seconds or so it fires once or twice but never catches.

I've got the green bible in hand and am working on the static timing - giving it one more shot before it goes to the Rover hospital tomorrow. With everything in neutral I am still not able to fully turn it over. When I try the fan, the belt just slips. If I really jerk on the belt I can move it about 1/4 turn in each direction, but not all the way around.

I got lucky and got the timing mark to line up by turning it over with the starter motor.

[JimCT]

The rotor needs to be pointing to the #1 wire.

[NickDawson]

Gentlemen, for a brief moment tonight, I held dominion over machine.
I'm not a father yet, but I have to imagine its similar :D

I couldnt find a static timing night and thought I'd goof off for a few minutes before packing it up. I tried to static time it by eye, getting the points to open just before TDC (the manual says to static time closed at TDC for #1). That actually worked.

It ran for a good 10 minutes, pretty rough at first, pouring black/brown smoke out of the exhaust as it cleared the cruft. Once it warmed it I was able to try and dial it in a bit... it was still rough, if I gave it gas it sounded gnarly and would backfire...LOUDLY!

I used the timing gun and dialed it in even more and it smoothed out. Then I set the idle on the carb and it was purring I tell you... still not totally smooth at higher revs (remember that busted vacuum line to the advance?) and then it died. For no reason, it just kind of petered out and I can't get back to that happy place. I do, however offer proof

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2b8OPTLePM

So now I have to decide if I send it away or keep puttering...why does it live to taunt me?

[Nium]

Is there gas in the tank?

Check the low tension lead.

[NickDawson]

gas - check

Low tension still connected

I should say that I'm doing this without a timing light. I still cannot for the life of me turn the engine over by hand (oddly even in neutral the front wheels would not spin when off the ground) - but again, when it was running it didn't lurch, crawl or make any suggestion of going forward on its own...

So I know its probably silly without a light, but help me understand some basics here. I had the rotor button lined up on the first plug, and the timing mark on TDC (as per the manual). Do I understand correctly that I want the points to just be closing at the point? If so, why do I want a spark when the first cylinder is all the way at the top?

Also, I can get the points to close at two locations on the inside of the distributor, when they've just been open and when they are just about to open again (make sense?) which is it that I'm looking for?

In other words, they seem to be closed when they are on the flat side of the spindle in the distributor (is that the dizzy by the way?) and they open when the spindle makes a turn on the 4 corners.

Just trying to better understand how this contraption works

[Nium]

Distributor = dizzy

4 stroke engine

Each of the 4 cylinders have 4 individual strokes they go through. From TDC with the rotor pointing at the corresponding spark plug wire location inside the distributor cap. The piston goes thru these 4 strokes.

Power-The spark plug fired igniting the air/fuel mixture pushing the piston down from 6 degrees past TDC. Intake and exhaust valves are closed
Exhaust-The piston has traveled to the bottom of the cylinder the energy from the burning air/fuel mixture's ignition has been spent and the piston is now traveling back up to the top of the cylinder. The exhaust valve is open.
Intake-At the top of the cylinder the exhaust valve has closed. Just after TDC the intake valve opens allowing the piston to draw in the air/fuel mixture as the piston travels to the bottom of the cylinder.
Compression-At the bottom of the Intake stroke the Intake valve closes. Now both Intake and Exhaust valve are closed. The piston now travels to the top of the cylinder compressing the air/fuel mixture for ignition just after the top of the compression stroke.
There are 4 lobes on the distributor shaft. Each lobe (one of the 4 corners of the distributor shaft) corresponds to opening the points for a cylinder. When the following arm of the points rides up onto the distributor shaft lobe the points are opened. The open points trigger the spark from the coil. You want the points to open just after the piston has moved a few degrees past TDC so it pushes the piston down on the power stroke and not backwards into the compression stroke. After triggering the spark from the coil the distributor shaft rotates thus closing the points (once again completing the circuit to the coil) allowing the coil to build the charge for the next opening of the points.

For static timing you need a 12 Volt test light not a timing light or timing gun.

Check that the low tension lead wire isn't broken inside the insulation. Disconnect it from the coil and from the connection to the points. Test it for continuity with a multimeter set to read ohms while flexing the low tension lead where it connects to the points. You want no resistance in the low tension lead. Continuity = no resistance.

Or just keep turning it over till it fires up again. Pour a little gas down the carb throat (1/4 cup or less) to see if it'll fire with that.

[kevkon]

So now I have to decide if I send it away or keep puttering...why does it live to taunt me?

I sure hope it was only the quality of your recording, but that motor sounded like it lost a cylinder. Take it to the LR mechanic, have him check it out. Learn from him. You and the Rover will be the better for it.

[Nium]

I concur with taking it to the mechanic.

[Nium]

Any word from the front? Did ya ever get it to the mechanic?

[NickDawson]

yep, getting very terse updates right now (hes a busy guy) , but as of last night its running and perhaps more importantly stopping (brakes).

Plan to head down there to spend some time learning from the master over the weekend. Anxious to figure out what he did and what he discovered.

I'm still feeling a tad guilty, I think I was really close to getting it running. But in the end this will be money well spent and I'll know that my starting point is soild.

[bmohan55]

Good! Now you can take it to MAR with confidence. Think of all the Series owners that will be there, talk about experience!

[NickDawson]

Update:
Spoke with Bobby last night - most major starting problem (and why I could not get it started again) is that the "pseudo-electroid" (IE center post inside the dizzy cap) had snapped off. Some may recall it was a brand spanking new cap, but apparently if thigns aren't seated perfectly then its an easy thing to break.
I would never have thought to look there, but will never miss it again. Thankfully still have the older working cap as a spare.

He also said my points were not installed exactly straight. I have before and after pictures that would imply the previous points may have also been installed incorrectly (since they are exactly the same...hey, trying to save some face here).

I haven't gotten the details on the breaks, besides generally bleeding them and getting them up to snuff again, I suggested he replace both wheel cylinders on the front right - no confirmation on that yet.

I've asked that he see if it will pass inpsection today so I can pick it up tomorrow. More details to follow. That will be a 2.5 hour drive (read: 4 hours in a series) so it will be about as good a test as any.

[galen216]

Where is your mechanic that is 2.5 hours away? There is a good guy here in Charlottesville that would be closer than that. He has my series right now and a yard full of Rovers.

[NickDawson]

Galen - I took it to a guy in Lynchburg whom I know well and who knows Series. As I mentioned in another thread, by way of marrage he is connected to one of Virginia's great Rover families. It was a tough call to have to towed down there, but it was the only resource I had at the time.

I'd love to have the name of your shop in C-Ville, much easier!

[galen216]

Ah yes, there is a large Rover contingent in Lynchburg.

Ben doesn't really have a shop name per se, but I'll be happy to pm you his phone #.

[Nium]

Timing

I wrote

You want the points to open just after the piston has moved a few degrees past TDC so it pushes the piston down on the power stroke and not backwards into the compression stroke.

After reviewing this statement I realized it was a little off. You actually want the points to open at 6 degrees BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) not after TDC. The reason being that by firing just before TDC the air/fuel mixture starts to burn and the momentum of the engine carries the piston past TDC at which point the air/fuel mixture is fully burning to give the most oomph to pushing the piston down in the power stroke.

The broken center electrode in the dizzy cap is a new one. How did ya manage to get the cap on crooked? :sly: Hope ya had fun on the long drive and were able to glean some useful info from the mechanic. :thumb-up:

Cheers!

[NickDawson]

After getting it purring like a kitten (or maybe a kitten with emphysema) the shop took it for a test drive. They have since decided that the breaks, despite solid pedal are not as effective as they would like. They are also concerned about the darty steering - something I noticed but got accustomed to (most of the rovers I have driven are like that).

The latest update is that they want to replace all the wheel cylinders with the thought that some were sticking and some not extending fully - solving both problems. They are the experts, but it strikes me as an odd thing. I checked them previously and only found one to have slight corrosion. Didn't notice any sticking, but its entirely plausible and would account for the poorer than expected gas mileage.

My only concern is that they may be chasing the wrong problem - someone mentioned that given the upgraded front wheels and brakes that the new dual cylinder MC I installed may be insufficient. I passed that comment along to the shop - have to trust they know more than I do (and we all know that to be the case :D )

They also made a comment about a bad relay to the fuel pump - I had good solid pressure and they had it running, so I'm not sure what that was about.

Out of curiosity - why would someone replace the front wheels with the larger ones including the brakes? Is it just for braking performance?

I've also decided to let them fix the exhaust manifold leak - in for a penny...

I'd love to see it again before the Mid Atlantic Rally - but at this point, they seem to find something new every day. I trust them not to do unnecessary work for revenue's sake, but hope they aren't missing some rover-centric solution to the problem(s).

Fingers crossed - I'll keep everyone posted.

[Tim Smith]

I can't remember. Is this a rover specialist shop? If not then just be careful that they aren't trying to turn this into a modern performer.

Rover shop or not, make sure you get the total estimate before going ahead with it. You might find yourself in a big shock after all is said and done.

Good luck!

[NickDawson]

I can't remember. Is this a rover specialist shop? If not then just be careful that they aren't trying to turn this into a modern performer.

Rover shop or not, make sure you get the total estimate before going ahead with it. You might find yourself in a big shock after all is said and done.

Good luck!

Been pleasantly surprised so far :D - Expected a whopper - with the ignition and brakes sorted I'm about $200 - less than I spent on tools for tinkering. I expect the exhaust manifold leak to be much worse.

They are not a rover shop per se, but have quite a bit of experience (so I'm told)- The owner of the shop drives an old British sports car, so he's not totally stuck in today's mindset.

[Nium]

See you still can't spell brakes. :D

What did they find was the issue with the engine running like crap?

[Nium]

Out of curiosity - why would someone replace the front wheels with the larger ones including the brakes? Is it just for braking performance?

Yes, better braking. Same reason some vehicles are fitted with disc brakes in the front and drums in the rear.

[NickDawson]

See you still can't spell brakes. :D

What did they find was the issue with the engine running like crap?

kut me some slack :D
You believe that I was an English major? I'm hopeful that I'll get the rover back some time this week.

While I'm waiting, I think I'm going to turn my attention to refinishing the hard top.... but thats a topic for another thread.

[Nium]

Get all your old parts back from the mechanic. Then you can rebuild them or at least take them apart and see how they work and you won't have to worry about damaging them.

[NickDawson]

Brief update - my guy finally got the wheel cylinders in but has not finished installing them. Due to my schedule this week, tonight was my only window to pick it up before the Mid Atlantic Rally this weekend. Such is life, but I'm bummed.

In the mean time he did nothing to tackle the exhaust leak which he now states is a large crack and blown gasket. I told him he had it for 4 weeks and could have done that any time while waiting on parts. I'm going to get it back as soon as I can, leak and all, and deal with that some other time (JB wield?).

Frustrated but trying to remember how much fun it is when it does run....

[Bertha]

I'm going to get it back as soon as I can, leak and all, and deal with that some other time (JB wield?).

Frustrated but trying to remember how much fun it is when it does run....

Sorry to hear its taken so long. Dont go the JB Weld route, find a used manifold if you want to save some $$$ or pony up the 276.00 for a new one from our hosts.

[NickDawson]

Sorry to hear its taken so long. Dont go the JB Weld route, find a used manifold if you want to save some $$$ or pony up the 276.00 for a new one from our hosts.

Actually, $276.00 doesnt sound too bad - maybe a winter project. The biggest fear is the bolts sheering off. At least that's his biggest fear and I suspect he may be on to something. Again, that makes it great idea for a long winter project.

Anyone have concerns about letting it go until winter or using JB in the mean time?

[Nium]

If there is a concern of shearing off bolts have new ones on hand to replace any that do break. Plus, if they're that bad looking maybe you should get new ones to replace the old anyway.

Is JB Weld even rated for the temperature of an exhaust manifold?

[kevkon]

Nick, do yourself a favor and let the mechanic tackle it. If you are not happy with his performance, find another. Replacing an origional exhaust manifold is usually never a fun job. Remember, it's not just the manifold that must be removed. As for an epoxy patch, it would depend on where the crack is and how severe it is. I have an industrial epoxy that will work under extreme heat, but thermal expansion and contraction are another story.

[bmohan55]

If it's the bolts on the downpipe he's worried about they may be re-tapped to a larger size, I had to do that with mine, brittle metal but it can be done. BTW waiting 4 weeks for wheel cylinders? tell him about a place called Rovers North, I was able to get my wheel cylinders in 2 days...but maybe I just got lucky!

If you need to feed your Land Rover Jones why don't you come out to MAR anyways, believe all you would need to do is pay dues and sign a waiver. Then you can hang out with very knowledgeable Series owners (I'm not including myself in that group) and learn. I'm sure you would get plenty of offers to ride along as we could always use another person to help push.

[Bertha]

If you need to feed your Land Rover Jones why don't you come out to MAR anyways, believe all you would need to do is pay dues and sign a waiver. Then you can hang out with very knowledgeable Series owners (I'm not including myself in that group) and learn. I'm sure you would get plenty of offers to ride along as we could always use another person to help push.

That is a great suggestion. When I had gone down to MAR years back, I ended up driving my truck for a short while, but there were so many great folks down there, I ended up parking my truck and riding in everyone elses truck.

[NickDawson]

If it's the bolts on the downpipe he's worried about they may be re-tapped to a larger size, I had to do that with mine, brittle metal but it can be done. BTW waiting 4 weeks for wheel cylinders? tell him about a place called Rovers North, I was able to get my wheel cylinders in 2 days...but maybe I just got lucky!

If you need to feed your Land Rover Jones why don't you come out to MAR anyways, believe all you would need to do is pay dues and sign a waiver. Then you can hang out with very knowledgeable Series owners (I'm not including myself in that group) and learn. I'm sure you would get plenty of offers to ride along as we could always use another person to help push.

I don't want to pit the two against each other, but lets just say he pointed the finger somewhere on the parts delay... Truthfully, there are always two sides and I really don't care. That has not been my experience with our hosts and wont influence my future shopping decisions.

I'll tackle the exhaust some other time, either by taking it somewhere or relegating myself to parking it and doing the work myself. The mechanic and I discussed it and we both think its an approachable repair, just a matter of who and when. He is also confident that it is not causing any other problems and should not get any worse. Actually, when the block heats up, the leak goes away (there's that thermal expansion business)

I'm going to pick it up tonight - I could come as a spectator but it'd be too painful :D Its not that I feel the need to trash the truck on a trail, but to go and not have it with me would stink. But like Bertha and BMohan55 said - I really am just excited to be there, I'll be all over the place with my camera and wife in tow (you'll recognize us b/c she'll have my wallett and be lagging behind with a very concerned look on her face).

[bmohan55]

Look forward to meeting you. My wife is VERY worried about the parts swap...mmm maybe I should bring a trailer!

[NickDawson]

Brief post mortem (once a consultant, the business speak sticks with you)

First the good:
The engine is tuned in really well - I'm very pleased. In fact, the idle is so smooth when I put the clutch in to come to a stop it feels/sounds like the engine has cut out. The MPG is greatly improved (anecdotal at this point) and it just feels like its running better.

Root cause - blown fuel shutoff relay causing the solenoids in the carb not to function properly. After all that tinkering with timing, points, carb cleaning, throttle cable...it was a damned relay. Not sure I'd have ever found that, but I'll be sure to check it in the future.

The steering is improved, although he was concerned about the astronomical amount of weight that the tire shop put on to balance it. Apparently he was right and the brakes were sticking and causing the darty steering.

The so-so:
The brakes are good, but not great. He expressed that concern when I picked it up. He thinks the power assist is completely gone, something we can confirm by pumping the brakes and hearing the vacuum leak affect the engine.

I realize that probably raises a huge red flag - it does for me as well. It stops well, but there is a lot of travel in the pedal. I question if the power assist would change the travel, or if we still have the wrong MC for the swapped 109 front in this thing?

I'm game to tackle the power servo myself unless someone tells me that is more complicated than I expect - seems like a part swap.

Slack in the drive train - I've always noticed a little slap when engaging 1st or 2nd quickly. My AWD sedan does that as part of design to prevent wheel slippage...I've noticed it on tons of old trucks and never thought anything of it. The mechanic thinks there is about 1/2 a turn of play in the drive shaft and suggests its indicative a problem in the rear diff. Anyone have any thoughts on that one?

The Bad:
There is still the crack in the exhaust manifold. Its not causing any noticable performance issues and I'm going to live with it a while.


All in all, I'm really happy to have it back and drivable. There are some things to consider in the next few months but nothing that seems to be preventing me from enjoying it now.

Thanks for the patience and support gang - this board has been a wonderful resource (as I'm sure it will continue to be) - I'm especially thankful for everyone putting up with my frustrations. I'll say this, I know a heck of a lot more about mechanics than I did 6 months ago. (enough to be dangerous now :D )

[NickDawson]

well...
After 4 days of running like a top, it just died about 6 blocks from home :(

I was driving about 25 mph, it bucked hard like it had been dropped into 1st and then stalled and will not restart.

I had been running errands and stopped and started a few times, no issues. The only other thing I did today was install an inverter - but that did not even require lifting the hood (I already had a 12 gauge wire from the battery and and another from the ignition switch for the relay)... although I did notice earlier today that the charge light was on during idle and the ammeter showed about 11V - both problems were fixed by a light touch of the accelerator.

I'm going to let it sit for an hour and hope that it was just vapor locked or something... but if not I'll test the alternator - but the starter motor is turning over fine, the battery is at least charged.

[Tim Smith]

Being that you are new to the truck, I'd suggest checking to make sure you have gas. Gauges can be finicky sometimes.

[Nium]

You probably need to make a blood sacrifice and bow 5 times toward Solihull and offer up prayers to the Rover Gods while sprinkling EP90 on the driveway.

[rbonnett]

Being that you are new to the truck, I'd suggest checking to make sure you have gas. Gauges can be finicky sometimes.

I'll second that. I discovered my bad voltage reg by running out of gas with 1/4 tank indicated. Same symptoms you had.

[NickDawson]

I'll second that. I discovered my bad voltage reg by running out of gas with 1/4 tank indicated. Same symptoms you had.

Interesting!
Had not thought to link the two... but with the charge light on and the tank reading 1/4, it really might be that simple.

I'll report tonight when go for the rescue mission. If that fails, then we'll see how many horsepower I have as I try and push it home

[SafeAirOne]

Interesting!
Had not thought to link the two... but with the charge light on and the tank reading 1/4, it really might be that simple.

I'll report tonight when go for the rescue mission. If that fails, then we'll see how many horsepower I have as I try and push it home

An alternator light that is on immediately after startup and goes out and stays out once you give it a few more RPMs isn't abnormal. I don't believe this characteristic has any relation to a bad fuel gauge indication.

If the charge light stays on all the time, it would certainly cause your rover to stop running eventually, but not from lack of fuel, but rather lack of sufficient electricity in the battery.


Hmm...Just re-read your earlier posts. It sounds as if your alternator doesn't put out enough juice to support all of your electrical demand at low RPMs. Out of curiosity, did this happen only after you hooked up that inverter? You're not driving around with a hotplate and steam iron plugged in are you? ;)

[badvibes]

Bummer dude. Check the basics, fuel, spark, air. I've had electric fuel pumps die suddenly. I now carry a spare, don't know if you're running elec or mechanical. Fuel filters get clogged. Check spark by pulling a plug and turning the engine over. A friend had problems with his Rover running like crap, didn't totally quit running though, just because his K & N filter was sooo dirty. Checking these things may not zero your problem right off but if you can eliminate 2 out of the 3 then it makes finding the real problem easier.

Jeff

[NickDawson]

Drat, not out of gas - added two gallons, reading 1/2 tank and I think thats accurate (was a little less than 1/2 before)

Got positive fuel pressure all the way to the carb, thats as far as I could troubleshoot tonight.

The build in ammeter is pegged to the left below 10v - although its turning over fine. I cranked it a lot, often for 30 seconds - 1 minute. At first it almost felt like it was going to catch, few good chugs but then nothing on the remaining attempts.

To Safe Air One's point - the inverter has been off since it was installed. Still don't trust it (wonder why). The timing feels too coincidental.

The filter is clean - so I've got air

There is fuel

Guessing the next step is to verify spark... two man job and will have to wait until later in the week. Headed out of town tomorrow.

[Nium]

Check the fuel shutoff relay. Relays are simply magnetic switches if it went bad without explanation before wouldn't hurt to check that first to make sure it didn't head south again IMHO.

Of course you know me I always think it's in the dizzy first ;).

Sorry the rigs testing you again I was hoping it was out of gas too.

[NickDawson]

Whoo-hoo! found a local shop who says they are comfortable with old rovers. In fact, they are literally a straight shot, less than 1 mile from where the rover is stalled. Ironic - in a good way!

The problem is that I feel like this time I could probably tinker for a weekend or two and figure it out. On the other hand, I have no time in my life for the next few weekends and this shop has time tomorrow.

I'm leaning towards taking it in and asking them to call me when they have it diagnosed. Then I can offer to pay their hourly rate if they will teach me while they fix it. Two birds, one stone?

[NickDawson]

This time Nium was right on the money - it *was* the points! :D
$200 later I have a running truck with brakes that stop a lot better. I have not gotten the full post mortem but they said something about the wiring for the points being defective - they were not burned up. The only thing I can imagine was the the low tension lead. It came with a honking plug on the end that would not fit through the hole in the dizzy. I cut it and re-crimped a new plug. Wondering if that crimp failed. Although I did check that the low tension lead was attached before towing it...

I'm kicking myself because I really think I could have tackled both over the weekend.... but $200 isn't the end of the world and I'm glad to have someone else bloody their knuckles with the rusty brake adjusters.

They also quoted me $900 for a new exhaust manifold from the UK. I told them about a little company I know in Vermont, just for future reference. (I'm still passing on the exhaust leak, I'll order the $250 manifold from RN this winter).

[kevkon]

Good news Nick!
I'd be inersted to hear what exactly was wrong in the "wiring". I just put in a new set of points and just happened to find that the factory crimp was no good. Took them out and soldered the connections.

[Jim-ME]

Glad to hear that the Rover is back on the road. Look at http://www.lrseries.com/shop/category/listing/95/1/Land-Rover-Series.html to see if you can get an exhaust manifold for less than you have been quoted. My 2.5 diesel manifold was $150.00 with expedited shipping.
Jim

[Nium]

Glad to see you are up and running again.

A little FYI if you had bought low tension lead RN# RNC604 Land Rover Part # 54413549 and it looked like the picture attached below. That's the wrong low tension lead for your distributor. That lead is for the Lucas 25D4 you've got a Lucas 45D4 where the low tension lead is incorporated to the wire for the condensor. Review Rover's North description of points part # RNF232 though I think you have the blue version of points fit to your dizzy part # RNE637. Hence why when you ordered a low tension lead it wouldn't fit and you had to cut the plastic block off that mates to the distributor body of the Lucas 25D4.

[amcordo]

11 pages in...

So Nick. Tell us how you feel about Land Rover. :)

[bmohan55]

11 pages in...

So Nick. Tell us how you feel about Land Rover. :)

LOL, that was mean!

Probably feels the same as we all have (and will again) at one time or another.

[amcordo]

Haha, it wasn't intended to be mean! You know - misery loves company as I look at my current crap list:
need to re-route exhaust
need to rewire cooling fan
need to overhaul brakes
need to pull trans to replace third gear and overhaul
need to paint
need to reupholster roof
need to replace window frames
need to replace shocks
need to re-wire vehicle with modern electric safety standards
I don't have the paper list on me, but I know there's a lot more...

God I love to hate this tractor.



LOL, that was mean!

Probably feels the same as we all have (and will again) at one time or another.

[NickDawson]

Its funny, someone at work today asked me "why are you doing this? Why did you get into it in the first place and why don't you sell it and cut your losses?"

My response "you'll never get it"

After getting really frustrated (the genesis of this thread), I took a step back, reminded myself of the point of own a rover and just let it roll off my back. Even last night after paying the guy $200, as soon as I'm behind the wheel I have a mild wide grin like a little kid that makes it all worth it.

Nium - regarding the lead, I do have the lead that is integrated with the condenser. The crimped end still did not fit through the hole in the dizzy.

I'm planning on getting under the hood tonight to try and determine what they did - still can't get a clear answer out of them... mechanics, almost worse than doctors :D

[Nium]

Nium - regarding the lead, I do have the lead that is integrated with the condenser. The crimped end still did not fit through the hole in the dizzy.


Oops, sorry I misunderstood what you had meant when you wrote that you had to cut the crimped end.:o My bad.

[NickDawson]

Oops, sorry I misunderstood what you had meant when you wrote that you had to cut the crimped end.:o My bad.

Think we *are* saying the same thing. The crimped end was too large to fit through the dizzy. I had to cut it, pass it through and crimp a new end on before attaching to the coil. (the other end was pre-attached to the condenser)