Replacement Parts; OEM vs Aftermarket

[kevkon]

I would like to hear everyone's experience with replacement parts which are non OEM. Has anyone noticed any substantial difference in quality? Obviously we don't have any choice in some cases, but sometimes there is still an original Land Rover, Lucas, etc part available ( usually at a higher cost). All in all, how do the replacements ( ProLine, BritPart, Allmakes,etc) compare?

[SafeAirOne]

I've had good parts from RN's ProLine, and from Allmakes. I've NEVER had a good BritPart and now completely avoid them.

[Bertha]

Proline is good for the most part
Allmakes is good as well
britpart=$hitpart-dont waste your money

[kevkon]

Well let me ask this; would you always go with OEM if that choice is available? I have been told that in certain instances the replacement parts are actually better than the original.

[Bertha]

Well let me ask this; would you always go with OEM if that choice is available? I have been told that in certain instances the replacement parts are actually better than the original.
Not exactly true-depends on which part

[jac04]

You guys do know that Proline = Britpart in some cases, right? My Proline brake shoes are Britpart, and they don't even fit.

But, the worst part is that someone at RN actually took the time to place a Proline sticker over the Britpart sticker, and they also used a razor to cut around the Britpart logo on the box and peel off the outer layer of cardboard box to remove the logo. Now, RN claims that they make no attempt to hide the manufacturer of their Proline parts, but it doesn't seem that way on my brake shoes. Sorry for the rant, but things like this don't sit well with me.

[Bertha]

You guys do know that Proline = Britpart in some cases, right? My Proline brake shoes are Britpart, and they don't even fit.

Been a while since I ordered shoes(thanks to a good supply on my parts shelf) last time I got a proline set, they were Lucas(I think). I guess it is possible to get britpart through allmakes, however when I dealt direct with them years back, I used to tell them what suppliers I would accept and which ones I wouldn't. Now that I deal strictly with our hosts, I have yet to get a britpart anything, but maybe things have changed. britpart and bearmach are certainly the bottom feeders of the parts business. I wouldn't use parts from either company-but that is just my opinion.

[TeriAnn]

<soapbox>

The truth is not pretty. For those of you old enough to remember the Pogo comic strips "We have met the enemy and they are us" For Series Land Rover parts fewer words ring truer.

One would think that all American Series owners have immigrated from the poor backwoods of Scotland and have learned to pinch each penny tight enough to make Scrooge McDuck proud. Quality materials, quality manufacturing processes cost more than pot metal pattern parts. Which one do we buy? Why the cheapest one of course. We force our retailers to purchase low quality stuff because it is cheap and it sells. The more expensive quality part that is better fit for use languishes in unsold inventory tying up money our retailers need to keep the company afloat and new inventory coming in. Manufacturers of OEM and OEM quality products are going out of business because no one buys their parts. They can not compete with the low quality pattern manufacturers.

As end users we get what we are willing to pay for. The retailers have to buy what sells as does the wholesalers and the manufacturer's of crap get rewarded while the manufacturers of quality parts go into receivership or get bought out by larger companies who often reduce quality to return the new division to profitability. After Lucas got purchased the owner licensed out the use of the Lucas name to some manufactures of crappy electrical parts. There is no comparison between today's Lucas points to old Lucas points.

There is a lot of crap out there BECAUSE it is the only stuff we end users are willing to pay for.

</soapbox>



Proline is good for the most part
Allmakes is good as well
britpart=$hitpart-dont waste your money

Proline - Hopefully good but I personally have a problem not knowing where the part comes from

Allmakes - I consider them to be a mixed bag. They are a wholesaler who buys from different manufacturers. They try to source quality parts and most of the time they do. I've gotten some stuff from them that I thought were superior to Genuine Land Rover. I've gotten some stuff I thought was a step above junk. Luckily I think the former happens a lot more often than the latter. I've found most of their stuff to be fit for use and provides an acceptably long service life.

Britpart & Bearmach - I've had nothing but bad luck with them and personally avoid them whenever possible.

Companies I like include Payden, OME, Mintex, Ferodo, Delphi, Timkin, Spicer, GKN and Borg & Beck. There are more brands I prefer but these are ones that come to mind at the moment.



But, the worst part is that someone at RN actually took the time to place a Proline sticker over the Britpart sticker, and they also used a razor to cut around the Britpart logo on the box and peel off the outer layer of cardboard box to remove the logo.

I avoid buying parts unless I at least know who the primary wholesaler company is, preferably the company who actually manufactured the part.


Well let me ask this; would you always go with OEM if that choice is available? I have been told that in certain instances the replacement parts are actually better than the original.

I figure you can never go wrong with OEM, but sometimes aftermarket parts can be a lot better. Two come to mind:

One is a set of lock tabs I got from Allmakes. The genuine LR parts are flat stamped steel and unfinished so they pick up a layer of rust quickly. The ones from Allmakes had the tabs slightly bent so it would be easy to slide a tool under the tab and bend them the rest of the way. And they were plated.

The other is Series floor mats that British Pacific carries. The factory mats are thin rubber that rolls easily and gets worn through in a few years. The ones that BP caries are a couple times thicker, stay in place and after a couple years use almost like new. The bad news is that you get what you pay for. The better mats are more expensive than the originals.

[kevkon]

Point well taken TeriAnn. I'm a mechanic so I understand the value of quality and I always choose on that basis. That's why I asked the question central to this thread. I also don't like purchasing parts and components without knowing who the manufacturer is ( although these days it all seems to come from China anyway).
There is , however, another issue where the "truth is not pretty". That would be the overall decline of the British motor industry and it's standards. I have seen this reflected in some of the OEM stuff I have worked with. Now relating to vintage cars and specifically Land Rover, given that it is a relatively small market comprising mainly enthusiasts, I thought that there would be a good chance that the aftermarket parts might actually be made with that in mind and be preferable to OEM. It seems that you are saying it's a mixed bag.

[KSMTAW]

As usual- Very well thought out and thorough answer by Ms. Terri Ann. Thanks. Always insightful.

British Pacific and Rovers North do have an obligation to ensure the parts they sell us fit and work.

My 20 years of experience with both of them has shown me that they will uphold their end of the bargain if they sell us something that does not fit or is not what we expected- they will refund us.

No one is perfect- I would guess that once in a while an inferior piece gets mailed to one of us. I really don't think they do it on purpose.

I am interested in what happened with the brake shoes and the "sticker over" thing mentioned above. But I still trust Rovers North and British Pacific. They are good companies trying to do good business.

As far as cost goes- I can’t help but keep my eye on the cost. A gallon of milk costs almost $5.00 here in Maine- A quart of oil is about $4.00. It is a balance though. You don’t have to always buy OEM or always buy aftermarket. Boards and discussions like this will help us all make good decisions. It will also help keep the companies in check. If something shady did happen with those “relabeled” brakes- now they know we know. If nothing shady happened- no real harm.

[jac04]

Proline re-labeled brake shoes:
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/000_1595.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j126/jac04/000_1596.jpg

[Calef]

Jac04,

Im sorry to hear you felt deceived.

What makes a part a ProLine? We call parts ProLine because we have tested them and we sell them backed by our 1 year unlimited milage warranty and industry leading customer support.

As far as putting our sticker over the original manufacturers sticker, we do that for customer convenience as it reduces confusion. If a customer calls in referencing the manufacturer's numbers on the box, our tech support can't easily help. So we put our sticker over the original one, so everybody speaks the same language.

AND, Lets be real here, you guys don't really think Britpart, Allmakes 4X4 or Bearmach actually manufactures all their parts do you? They put their stickers on parts other people manufacture just like we do. The difference is that we are cutting costs and passing on the savings by not putting them in custom ProLine boxes. By the way, the ProLine box is a solution we have discussed, but we decided our customers would rather not pay for packaging.

And while at times there is a great deal of quality difference between the different brands, they often share manufacturers on certain parts. On top of that, no one brand is perfect with all the parts they sell. You can't say every Britpart is crap or every Allmakes 4X4 part is perfect. That is why Rovers North has the Pro-line. We pick out the best parts at the best price and stand behind it with our warranty so customers don't have to worry. :thumb-up:

[Firemanshort]

This sort of falls into the same story as what has already been stated above.....

I bought a replacement rear brake light assembly from Paddocks a while back while I was in the UK. The thing was cheap-as-chips - 2 quid or something. It was Wipac brand.

I installed it without any problem. It replaced an old rusted and coroded Lucas brand light assembly that appeared to be factory.

Time passes.

I was looking at my rear light this past week (preparation for getting the truck inspected). The Wipak light assembly is plastic. The ears on the light bulb have half stripped through the plastic mounting assembly and now the bulb fits a little loose. Also, the light lens has a gap in the rubber seal at the bottom to allow any moisture to drain out - but on this light, things are all lined up wrong and the gap sits about 8:30 instead of 6:00 - direct bottom. So, the lens was holding a small amount of water inside the assembly and my constacts were coroded. Finally, the plastic screw mounts have started to crack - probably from some dumb owner over tightening the lens screws (ok - that was me).

Other side of the truck still has a Lucas brand light assembly on it. It is made out of metal and ... well... infinately more durable than its new plastic brother.

I am definately putting this down to getting what I paid for. Live and learn.

[greenmeanie]

<soapbox>


One would think that all American Series owners have immigrated from the poor backwoods of Scotland and have learned to pinch each penny tight enough to make Scrooge McDuck proud.



Uh huh I do.

If I can make a part I do. If I can't make it I'll see if I can get it from the local autoparts store or replace it with something where I can. I'll then look at industrial suppliers for things like bearings and seals. Depending on the part I'll spend some time phoning around the usual suspects looking for used.

As a last resort I'll buy genuine but I usually shop around both the US and UK. As an extreme last resort I'll even buy Britpart but by that time I am usually modifying the truck to replace that part of the system with something better and that takes me back to the top of the list.

This all takes time and an understanding of what you are dealing with but works out considerably cheaper than buying from an a la carte catalogue.

[TedW]

Thst said, I am willing to pay extra for Genuine, but that's just me. In appropriate cases I prefer good used Genuine parts to aftermarket.

[kevkon]

Jac04,

Im sorry to hear you felt deceived.

What makes a part a ProLine? We call parts ProLine because we have tested them and we sell them backed by our 1 year unlimited milage warranty and industry leading customer support.

As far as putting our sticker over the original manufacturers sticker, we do that for customer convenience as it reduces confusion. If a customer calls in referencing the manufacturer's numbers on the box, our tech support can't easily help. So we put our sticker over the original one, so everybody speaks the same language.

AND, Lets be real here, you guys don't really think Britpart, Allmakes 4X4 or Bearmach actually manufactures all their parts do you? They put their stickers on parts other people manufacture just like we do. The difference is that we are cutting costs and passing on the savings by not putting them in custom ProLine boxes. By the way, the ProLine box is a solution we have discussed, but we decided our customers would rather not pay for packaging.

And while at times there is a great deal of quality difference between the different brands, they often share manufacturers on certain parts. On top of that, no one brand is perfect with all the parts they sell. You can't say every Britpart is crap or every Allmakes 4X4 part is perfect. That is why Rovers North has the Pro-line. We pick out the best parts at the best price and stand behind it with our warranty so customers don't have to worry. :thumb-up:

Understood, but what criteria is used in selecting a particular replacement brand? Does it get subjected to testing, compared to specs, or is it more of a visual comparison? Say for example, I were to purchase a ProLine distributor. How does it compare to OEM specs and who checks that? I realize that in many cases OEM parts are probably in limited supply so it's natural that they will cost more. I also know that doesn't necessarily mean they are better than newer aftermarket parts.
Perhaps a solution of sorts would be to allow user ratings on those items in which a choice is available. That way if there is an option between OEM and aftermarket ( or between aftermarket brands) the customer can decide whether the cost difference is worth it or not.

[LRMAN]

I have spent the last 10 years working on sailboats and I can assure you that maintaining a Rover is cheap so buy the best quality you can. You might as well do it the first time because if you buy the cheap part you are just wasting money and delaying the day when you finally smarten up and buy the quality part.

In 99% of the cases you get exactly what you pay for.

Calef, why don't you enable a review feature for your online catalog so the real testers(us) can rate the aftermarket vs the OEM(when available) parts.

[Bertha]

The debate about aftermarket parts has been ongoing for some time. Teri, as usual, has made some excellent points, especially in regards to the supply and demand of quality parts. I own several different makes of old cars and am on several different message boards relating to them. From my observations I can honestly say the Rover crowd in general is about the cheapest bunch of people I have ever seen(no offense to anyone), which (to Teri's point) is why there seems to be more poorly made parts on the market than ever before. As a result, suppliers such as Rovers North have been forced to sell aftermarket parts in addition to their Land Rover Genuine in the last few years, just to stay competitive. It is important, however to define aftermarket parts.
IMO they fall under 2 catagories: oem suppliers with their label on the box and non-oem suppliers. Oem suppliers, such as lucas, girling, spicer, borg and beck etc were all original suppliers to Land Rover and as such if you open a Land Rover genuine box you will probably find those parts inside. If you can get these parts in their original box, then you will be getting the same quality part, just not paying for the "box".
When you buy parts from bearmach or britpart, they souce the cheapest stuff they can find, usually not from the original supplier to Land Rover. As a result, these parts arent the tried and true parts that gave our Rovers the reputation for durability. They are just inexpensive and for the most part poorly made, with their main focus being price. These are the parts I would stay away from. In my experience and to our hosts credit, it appears as though they stay away from these parts as well. If I order a wheel cylinder from RN and I select proline, I will get a lucas/girling part, which is the same part you will receive in a Land Rover box, if you ordered a Land Rover genuine part. Again to Teri's point, knowing what proline part you are getting, is definitely helpful in the decesion making process. I try to stay as close to oem as possible, even if it means paying more, however these days even things as simple as genuine Lucas points, still leave a lot to be desired.

[jac04]

We call parts ProLine because we have tested them ...
How about this: Pull a set of these shoes off the shelf. Test them. See if you can get them to work on a set of 11" brakes with the original adjusters. :thumb-up:

[kevkon]

The only problem I see with that is it does not seem as if anyone makes anything themselves anymore. With so much outsourcing going on you can find a tremendous variation in quality, fit, and finish with the same part from the same supplier. I guess it depends on what paricular Chinese factory the lot came from. Theoretically, improved CNC machining and manufacturing processes should or can actually yield a better product than that of 40 years ago. I know that isn't always the case, though.
I still think a rating or user review of similar parts would be very helpful not only to the purchaser, but the feedback might also help the seller determine which aftermarket parts are worthy of selling and which might be better left with the distributor.

[TedW]

From my observations I can honestly say the Rover crowd in general is about the cheapest bunch of people I have ever seen(no offense to anyone), which (to Teri's point) is why there seems to be more poorly made parts on the market than ever before.

I need to share a recollection: A number of years ago I read a forum entry (maybe on this one) from a guy who discovered that the lip from the jug of a particular type of laundry detergent was the perfect dimension for window track, so all you needed to do was to cut off enough sections from your old detergent jugs and you'd have plastic window track for your Rover. Now that's squeezing the nickle!

I think the prevalence of cheap parts is a consequence of the economics of the home market. In the UK Series rovers have been farm/utility vehicles for the most part, and farmers are a frugal lot - hence the availability of so much cheap aftermarket stuff over there.

I bought some King Pins in Liverpool (at LR Supermarket - their brand) about ten years ago, and when I rebuilt my swivels I found them to be over 1/16" longer than the originals. I ditched them and kept using my original (if slightly pitted) king pins. I learned my lesson - now I just call our hosts.

[I Leak Oil]

Usually the best parts you can find are the used, original ones that are still in good shape. You can't advertise them here though. Have to look at other boards to do that. (Hint RN, you're losing board traffic)

The debate of genuine vs. aftermarket has been beat to death over the years. As far as pro-line goes, if you want a less expensive alternative to genuine then there it is. Take it or leave it. RN has ALWAYS done right by me with the very few parts I was unsatisfied with in the last 15 years of dealing with them. I've dealt with most of the other parts places also. None of them come close to RN's customer service.

AB...Do they even deal with series trucks anymore? Maybe if you want air fresheners...They seem to have forgotten their roots.
DAP...Still waiting for the wheel bearing lock washers they were supposed to send me for my disco that I sold 5 years ago. Should see them any time now right?
BP...Took nearly 2 months, and many phone calls to Lawrence for them to ship a used bulkhead to me a few years back.

So the simple answer to the original question is sometimes the genuine part is better, sometimes the aftermarket or oem is just as good if not better. It's really a part by part question.

[pisten-bully]

The debate of genuine vs. aftermarket has been beat to death over the years. As far as pro-line goes, if you want a less expensive alternative to genuine then there it is. Take it or leave it. RN has ALWAYS done right by me with the very few parts I was unsatisfied with in the last 15 years of dealing with them. I've dealt with most of the other parts places also. None of them come close to RN's customer service.

Yup! Couldn't agree more!

[TeriAnn]

BP...Took nearly 2 months, and many phone calls to Lawrence for them to ship a used bulkhead to me a few years back.


That's probably because BP doesn't sell used parts (but they sell remanufactured heads, gearboxes & engines). Lawrence was probably working a side deal for you getting the bulkhead for you as a personal favor.

I can almost guarantee that this transaction did not go through BP proper but as a personal favor from a BP employee to you.

BP is not in the business of selling used parts and hasn't been for at least a decade or more.

But bottom line is that both RN and BP try their best to get the best parts to their customers. Both companies stand behind the products they sell and try to do right by their customers. Both have employees that try to go the extra mile for the customer.

Very few of the products they sell are commissioned to be manufactured by them. Almost everything is purchased through large wholesalers who purchase most of their stuff from manufacturers. Both companies try to purchase from wholesalers who have quality requirements for the parts they buy. Wholesalers who try to source quality parts fit for use that will last. Quality wholesalers often buy from many of the same manufacturers and some of the time there is only a single source world wide for a part.

The key is purchasing from a retailer who is concerned about sourcing the best product from wholesalers who are focused on having a quality reputation for delivering parts fit for use that have a reasonable life expectancy. A GKN or Timkin bearing is the same part no mater which wholesaler and retailer was used. Your trick is to find and purchase from the companies that work with wholesalers who purchase these parts instead of a cheaper Chinese knockoff.

As end users, we can not be expected to know the best manufacturer for every part on our vehicle. The retailers we pick are our representatives who look for the best parts for us.

[kevkon]

The key is purchasing from a retailer who is concerned about sourcing the best product from wholesalers who are focused on having a quality reputation for delivering parts fit for use that have a reasonable life expectancy. A GKN or Timkin bearing is the same part no mater which wholesaler and retailer was used. Your trick is to find and purchase from the companies that work with wholesalers who purchase these parts instead of a cheaper Chinese knockoff.

As end users, we can not be expected to know the best manufacturer for every part on our vehicle. The retailers we pick are our representatives who look for the best parts for us.

I agree completely, although we also have to understand that the retailer must be concerned with profit.
Anyway, my point in starting this thread was simply to see what experiences others have had with these parts. Share some specific examples, both good and bad.

[I Leak Oil]

That's probably because BP doesn't sell used parts (but they sell remanufactured heads, gearboxes & engines). Lawrence was probably working a side deal for you getting the bulkhead for you as a personal favor.

I can almost guarantee that this transaction did not go through BP proper but as a personal favor from a BP employee to you.

BP is not in the business of selling used parts and hasn't been for at least a decade or more.

Terriann,
The transaction did happen over 10 years ago and I have bought a limited amount from them since. With that said, I didn't know anyone personally at BP, I called a BP phone number, dealt with a BP employee and BP was the one who accepted payment. What ever their internal workings are I had a less than satisfactory experience with BP on this particular transaction. Ulitmately the bulkhead was a very good unit (You lucky west coasters!) so it worked out, just slightly frustrating getting there.
My point wasn't to bash BP per se, but to point out that good customer service is an important part of the decision making process when looking at non-genuine parts. If it's a problem just getting the part then you have to think about the potential issues with returning one you're not happy with. Yes, good customer service covers the up front research of a part as well as the after sale aspect.

[I Leak Oil]

Share some specific examples, both good and bad.

I've never had good luck long term with the aluminum wheel cylinders. I now only use the cast iron, usually girling. Any amount of moisture tends to seize the aluminum version quickly where as the cast iron are more tolerant. I once bought a rebuild kit for an aluminum one but the rebuild parts didn't fit the aftermarket cylinder.
Brake shoes. Genuine are very expensive. Mintex are the best in terms of quality, fit, noise and cost. IMO.
Early on I made the mistake of buying a Bearmach wheel bearing kit. Even the bearings in the kit were different from one another in terms of construction and manufacturer. Timken is the way to go.
When it comes to transmission parts like gears and shafts, go genuine if you can. Not all are available though.

[Bertha]

When it comes to transmission parts like gears and shafts, go genuine if you can. Not all are available though.

This is currently a huge problem right now. Land Rover Genuine gears are beyond expensive and harder to find for all applications, however buying anything else has become a crap shoot.

[Calef]

How about this: Pull a set of these shoes off the shelf. Test them. See if you can get them to work on a set of 11" brakes with the original adjusters. :thumb-up:

Im sorry to hear you got a part that did not work for you. I can empathize with your frustration, in the rebuilding of my Land Rover I had a part or two that did not fit as i would have liked.

Unfortunately, distributors change manufacturers without warning and manufacturers change production techniques without warning. A part we had purchased for years and had many happy customers using, can all of a sudden turn up poorer quality than before. This is an inherent difficulty faced by all purveyors of Land Rover parts. Our purchasers take this problem VERY seriously and we do our best to stay on top of these changes and make purchasing adjustments as soon as possible.

We stand behind everything we sell. Give us a call (if you have not already) and we will make it right.

[thixon]

I hate to say this, but nothing I've read here should surprise any of us. If anything, I'm surprised the list of NLA parts isn't longer than it is. Rover owners are luckier than other owners of brit car marques. They get driven more, so my presumption has always been that the demand for replacement parts is greater than for other brit cars. Hence the cheap aftermarket parts. Over time, these will go away as well. We're a small group, and getting smaller. If you really want to drive your truck for the next 30, 40, or 50, years, you better start thinking about how you're gonna pull that off when you cant get parts to fix the tranny, or replace the diff. I can tell you from experience, finding good used parts is tough (drawing from exerience with other marques).

If memory serves, TA has a TR3. I don't know if she restored it herself or not, but the list of parts for a TR3 that are NLA grows every day, and has been doing so for a while. Try and find a cheap front valence for one, or a new rear scuttle. It aint gonna happen. Don't even ask TA about a cylinder head if her's cracks. Moss currently sells an aluminum version for over 3G's. Beyond that, shes searching for a suitable cast downer which she may or may not find. The list of parts for the Healey 100 in my garage that you can't get anymore is disturbingly long. The same goes for MG, and others.

As for Rover owners being cheaper than owners of other brit cars, well, all i have is my own perspective. I've owned plenty of other cars. When it comes to a rover, I know that a little change here or there won't signifigantly effect the value, so I don't mind going aftermarket here and there.

The one thing I have noticed is that Rover owners tend to be more hands on. Many can fab and weld, and are good mechanics. I fall into that category, and like the fact that I can talk with others who enjoy it as well. I'm not being cheap, just having fun. Sometimes it less about the Rover, and more about the project. I don't see that as much with those who stick strickly to the higher value cars. I know people with high value brit sports cars (e-types, healeys,etc) that think I'm completely nuts for even considering doing anything more than light mechanical work on my cars. My wife tends to agree!:D
Just to drive the point further, those guys don't drive those cars as much as a typical rover owner, partially because the cars are worth a lot more, and partially because they don't want them to break/wreck. When they do, it can be a butt to find parts.

[kevkon]

Just to drive the point further, those guys don't drive those cars as much as a typical rover owner, partially because the cars are worth a lot more, and partially because they don't want them to break/wreck. When they do, it can be a butt to find parts.

Another factor is insurance. Collectible car insurance has a lot of restrictions on vehicle usage.

[TJR]

Who makes the parts that get badged Genuine Land Rover ? Does LR still produce spares themselves? LR must maintain a vast array of machine shops to fill purchase orders for the spares supply chain. TR

[kevkon]

And what about all those branded boxes the parts come in?