prepping and re-painting a hard top

[NickDawson]

Hey gang - inspired by my recently re-tuned truck and the beauties at the MAR, the wife and I are interested in refinishing the hard top. Thats right, wife - she kept commenting on the hard tops on the other series trucks - including BMhoan55's Series III (which has the lining in tact, wow!).

Any time you can get the spousal engagement factor above a negative, you have to take advantage! And, since its close to fall in VA, this is a good time to start thinking about the hard top again. Of course it goes without saying, but... I'm not putting cosmetics before mechanics, but if Susan wants to get involved then count me in!

My hard top is structurally great, but cosmetically its a dull gray - less paint than bare metal.

I did some searches and found a lot on primers and paint. But in terms of stripping, I have some questions: My thought was to clean it up with steel wool and sand paper - maybe not strip to bare metal but at least smooth it out. Understanding that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, is that a reasonable approach?

Assuming it is, I want to follow Jac04's lead and try and spray it myself. I can rent a sprayer.... In terms of primer I saw a lot of info about Veraprime and epoxy primers going on galvy parts. Is Veraprime, or generic epoxy primer appropriate for the Al top? Anything I need to consider, especially in lieu of any advice on prepping what is currently there?

[Nium]

Most epoxy paints are noxious and require appropriate ventilators and ventilation to reduce risks. Strictly adhere to manufacturers safety precautions when applying them. Surface preparation must be strictly adhered to also or else the paint won't stick and you'll get craters (spots where the paint doesn't adhere). Epoxy paints are suppose to last much longer though.

[NickDawson]

Strictly adhere to manufacturers safety precautions when applying them. Surface preparation must be strictly adhered to also or else the paint won't stick and you'll get craters

Did I mention that my "shop" is 100% outside? :D - no garage, no walls...
But, I don't need lung cancer even if the wind is in my favor. Good tip, thanks! I have a decent respirator, I'll make sure its rated accordingly.

As for prep, and in response to craters, I'm willing to accept a result that is less than perfect - I've seen brush on jobs and they are far better than how my top looks currently. Given that, anything I besides roughing up the surface with sand paper and smoothing it out with steel wool that I should be aware of?

[brucejohn]

Jac04 was using Citristrip on his for old paint removal. I will be interested to see the others' replies as I too have hardtops needing repainting. I am beginning to see it is a journey, not a destination.

[Nium]

Nick it depends on the epoxy paint you're using the prep needed so you have to check with manufacturer. Friend of mine used some. He did have a garage and even with a paint vapor mask and a ventilator fan circulating air he eventually made a mask with hose to outside air because he had started to feel light headed with the vapor mask. I seem to recall he stripped it to bare metal then had to use an acid wash to really clean the metal. He still got a few craters but they were really small. I'll have to ask him what prep he did and let you know.

[kevkon]

Nick, you don't need to strip the paint if it's not showing any adhesion problems. The current paint is, in effect your primer. A light sanding and an application of prepsol to remove all oil, dirt, and silicones and you are good to go.
Do not get involved with epoxy paints!
A good acrylic enamal auto finish applied with an HVLP gun is your best bet.

[NickDawson]

Nick, you don't need to strip the paint if it's not showing any adhesion problems. The current paint is, in effect your primer. A light sanding and an application of prepsol to remove all oil, dirt, and silicones and you are good to go.
Do not get involved with epoxy paints!
A good acrylic enamal auto finish applied with an HVLP gun is your best bet.

I like this plan! Thanks Kevkon

[JackIIA]

Do not get involved with epoxy paints!
A good acrylic enamal auto finish applied with an HVLP gun is your best bet.

Losing me abit. Are you saying avoid epoxy (because you're assuming the use of hardeners and Isocyanates = cyanide)...or a durability issue, finish quality, etc?

I've thought about a 2K job (using a HVLP gun and air fed respirator) but even then, not really keen on killing all the neighborhood kids with those airbourne hardeners.

[jac04]

I think that you need to make sure that you know the proper prep steps before getting into which topcoat to use. I was lucky that the CitriStrip did not remove my original factory paint - that way I could use the factory paint as a 'base'. Any bare aluminum spots I cleaned and spot-primed with Eastwood self-etching primer.

However, if you have mostly aluminum showing, I think your best bet is stripping off any remaining paint, then prepping. Dupont has a 2-step cleaning & stabilizing process for bare aluminum - 225S and 226S:
http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/visitor/common/pdfs/b/product/dr/ChromaSystem/H-19291_226S.pdf

http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/visitor/common/pdfs/b/product/dr/ChromaSystem/H-19290_225S.pdf

[I Leak Oil]

Bare metal, even if it's just a few spots needs to be primed. Existing paint can be painted over but I highly recommend a sealer to prevent the new paint from lifting the old.
Epoxy primer is a good choice. The person applying it must take the necessary safety measures as with all paint.
Self-etch is fine also but only on bare metal, it doesn't like being sprayed over existing paint/primer.

[gudjeon]

Zinc chromate primer for bare alli. The industrial stuff from Napa. You can get it in a spray bomb and it goes on so you can still see through the finish- it chemically keyes into the aluminuuim. I then Sprayed on a layer of 3M Ultra-Schutz to cover up all the dings and scratches. The top coat was a limestone marine industrial enamel put on with. That stuff is tough as nails and has not scratched off while brushing with small tees and shrubbery.

You can't get any more outdoor DIY than this.:thumb-up:

[kevkon]

There's no good reason to screw around with epoxies if the existing base coat is intact and not delaminating. I'm taking into account that someone with no or little auto painting experience is contemplating this job. If there are areas of bare aluminum, then use an etch and prime. If there is a need to use body filler, then do so and spot pime with an apropriate primer. Keep it simple.

[NickDawson]

Got started today cleaning and prepping...but then the truck died on me. I think it knows when I'm contemplating something cosmetic and reacts violently

[I Leak Oil]

Perhaps it's allergic to epoxy primer.....

[Bertha]

Nick
You will definitely need to use a primer(either sealer or epoxy depending on the surface condition) before you put a color coat on. Email/call me today and I will give you the correct facts on how to proceede.

[thixon]

Nick,

If you're gonna buy paint, and put in the time, then you really need to pay attention to the prep side of things. 95% of the job is in the prep. If you don't do it right, you won't be happy with it. Sounds like Bertha has you covered, so I won't preach.

The only thing I'll add is this. If you go with an epoxy primer (which is a great choice on bare aluminum), and a 2K paint then you need to consider buying a respirator, and covering up when you mix and spray. Someone above mentioned isocyanates. Read up on them. Anyone telling you that anything less than positive pressure air fed respirator will work doesn't know what they're talking about. You can buy a hobby air for $500 or so nowadays.

Unless you just want to do it yourself, you might consider a local paint shop. It would cheaper for you in the end.

[NickDawson]

might start calling for quotes from a shop... but again, all that's on hold :D
The truck does not like to be pampered and reacts accordingly to idea of being painted.

I thought if I could brush or rent a sprayer and get something that looked half decent than it would be worth it. But we we start talking about health risks and epoxy paints then maybe a pro job is the way to go.


Although the idea of building a spray booth does seem kinda fun....

[galen216]

Just rattle can it. Rustoleum almond gloss. Did my old truck like this and it still looks good. Total cost ~ $20 and one afternoon.

http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu245/galen216/DSCN0440rob07.jpg

[thixon]

Galen 216,

Since you brought up rustoleum, I've sprayed a truck or two with the gallon sized rustoleum with an HVLP. It was pretty easy to spray, and turned out pretty good. Took FOREVER to dry though.

Nick, that might be a cheaper, safer option for you. You can use a regular canister type respirator (home depot/lowes) for organic solvents. Ace will custom tint the paint for you.

[NickDawson]

Could always try that and if the results stink then I'm no worse off than I am now and could take it to a shop...

[luckyjoe]

Nick,

I took my 109" roof down to bare aluminum. It had about 7 coats of different colors. I used a gel stripper from the big box home store - a gallon container with a plastic spray-bottle shink-wrapped to it. Worked fine, even with so many layers, water clean-up, and I have a lot left over too.

I used NAPA etch primer in spray cans (actually in process of completing this). Next step will be brush paint in 110 white, then sand/paint/sand/paint. I've seen a couple brush jobs that even looked Pro...

I'm planning on a warm weekend or two in the next month, and I'll knock it out.

Regards,

[amcordo]

I also did this! Just make sure you add paint thinner to the gallon BEFORE spraying it on. Rustoleum on its own (that is Rustoleum in the gallon form, rather than the aerosol form) is pretty thick and has a tendency to both orange peel and take forever to dry unless you thin it down a fair amount. I want to say I mixed it something like 1/8 thinner and still probably could have gone more...






Galen 216,

Since you brought up rustoleum, I've sprayed a truck or two with the gallon sized rustoleum with an HVLP. It was pretty easy to spray, and turned out pretty good. Took FOREVER to dry though.

Nick, that might be a cheaper, safer option for you. You can use a regular canister type respirator (home depot/lowes) for organic solvents. Ace will custom tint the paint for you.

[thixon]

Amcordo,

I did thin it, but I don't remember with what, or how much. Basically I followed the instructions. What I do remember is that it wasnt as forgiving as automotive grade paints when it came to runs at the recommend ratio of paint to thinner.

The other thing I've noticed is that it oxidizes pretty fast, so if you're after a quick patinad look, that might be the way to go.

[amcordo]

I'd agree with all that. I painted it a dark color and will be going back and painting it almond sometime when it warms up. The dark color will fade FAST. In any case, if you're looking for something that's economical and looks alright at ten feet then look no further. But show-car quality it aint. And it scratches fairly easily since rustoleum is such a soft paint.


Amcordo,

I did thin it, but I don't remember with what, or how much. Basically I followed the instructions. What I do remember is that it wasnt as forgiving as automotive grade paints when it came to runs at the recommend ratio of paint to thinner.

The other thing I've noticed is that it oxidizes pretty fast, so if you're after a quick patinad look, that might be the way to go.

[kevkon]

Put it in perspective. I assume Nick has no auto body experience and no equipment. All he wants to do is to paint his top! Should he invest $1000 dollars in equipment and paint?

[Nium]

Just get some exterior grade house paint, 35 year plus, and apply with roller. Mine hasn't started peeling yet and it's been over 10 years! Maybe use some Kilz to prime it first. :thumb-up:

[thixon]

Kevkon,

Exactly. He's probably better off taking to a shop. $400 or $500 and he's out of there with a newly painted top (less if he strips it for them). Plus, he won't take ten years off his life inhaling paint fumes (like me!).

Nium,
Awesome. Actual house paint? Did you roll it or brush it?

[Nium]

Nium,
Awesome. Actual house paint? Did you roll it or brush it?

Yep, actual house paint. Brushed it on and you can barely see the brush strokes, especially from the street ;). Don't remember which paint it was like I said it was over ten years ago.

[jrd51ox]

I'm painting the sides of my hard top to match the body this weekend. The sides are in great shape and were freshly painted with DuPont Centari limestone less then two years ago by the previous owner. So I decided to spray right over the old paint. I was able to get some Pastel Green 38504A right in a rattle can. I used it before in the past when I did the interior, very happy with the quality even though it's expensive spray paint. I used this company out of Broadview, IL. They mix it fast and I always get it a few days later. Might be an easy alternative for a series without any bare metal showing. Hope this helps someone.
http://www.touchupspraypaint.com/proddetail.php?prod=KTNDPCT01

[jgkmmoore]

Don't write off house paint for sure. In the NW and parts of Alaska, A lot of fishermen paint their fishboat hulls with it, and it often outlasts marine paint. Do the prep tho, and use self etch in a can on any bare metal spots to avoid 'fisheye'. Don't have to get a real solid coat...fog it on a couple times, lightly, and it will flash fast and give the paint real bite. Don't shoot the self etch on any paint that has been less than 6 months.
When you buy the housepaint, and you want an eggshell finish, you can buy a flattener to add to your gloss paint. Many colors can be had in eggshell right in the can. I recently had a poor result with a 'less expensive' HLVP gun, and couldn't make it shoot a flat coat to save me. If you don't have any spray paint experience, probably better to stick to the old fashioned sprayer.
Good luck!

[kevkon]

Stupid paint question; Was the color of the top an option when the truck was ordered? For example was there only one top color available with a Marine Blue body?
I had a LR dealer about a mile from my house when growing up and I seem to remember some differences.

[NickDawson]

Stupid paint question; Was the color of the top an option when the truck was ordered? For example was there only one top color available with a Marine Blue body?
I had a LR dealer about a mile from my house when growing up and I seem to remember some differences.

I would also like to know about colors - hoping to match that off-white almond color.

[jrd51ox]

I would also like to know about colors - hoping to match that off-white almond color.

Off white color is called Limestone:

DuPont
Limestone 38505A

PPG Deltron
Limestone 46251

Glasurit
Limestone ROV105/S

........or Rustoleum Almond Spray Paint is very popular.

[NickDawson]

Just to show you all what I'm dealing with, here are some pics.
I'd hoped to prime it today, but it looks like rain.

They are all here in more detail (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/tags/hardtop/)

The top where it gets ugly, the gray is bare metal, the black a mix of bare metal and grime
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3997861063_98b1343e94.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2605/3997860653_920e9838cc.jpg

The back and sides are tooooo bad (by comparison)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2529/3998623938_19471d8cd7.jpg

[Bertha]

Nick
You need to do a really good job of cleaning that before attempting to paint it. I would buy a comercial type cleaner and scrub that top down really well before putting any sandpaper or paint on it.

[NickDawson]

Nick
You need to do a really good job of cleaning that before attempting to paint it. I would buy a comercial type cleaner and scrub that top down really well before putting any sandpaper or paint on it.

Was thinking the same thing as I took the pictures...I'll see what I can find in the shops tomorrow.

[stomper]

Prior to buying me Land Rover, It was my hobby to detail cars. (they are all under warranty, so I needed something to do).

Buy a good all purpose cleaner (APC). Purple power, greased lightning, fantastic, 409. ect. the more industrial APCs are suppost to be diluted with water to be safe on most surfaces, but I would use it full strength. Wet the surface down with a power washer, or a strong water stream from the hose. spray on the APC, and let it dwell for 15 minutes, but do not let it dry to the surface. Mist with water from the hose if you need. Then use a brush or a scotch brite pad to aggitate the APC on the surface, and break up the dirt. Rinse well with water, and repeat as necessary.

I would not even contemplate paint types, sanding, etc untill you get the surface clean. you need to be able to see what you are working with.

[NickDawson]

Made some great progress with some TSP, a stiff brush and some steel wool

All the black grime is gone and I'm left with a lot a bare metal and very little paint.
Going to get some quotes on having it sprayed, but suspect I'll end up trying a rattle can job on my own.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2517/4001560641_a230bd76b3.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2488/4001561033_e1bb32a25e.jpg

[brucejohn]

My full top is okay, but my pickup top looks worst then yours. Following along here has me leaning toward the rattle can.

I wouldn't have thought about using TSP, that stuff is great for all kinds of uses.

[thixon]

Nick,

you need a D/A!

[NickDawson]

D/A?

[Bertha]

D/A?

Dual Action(as in orbital sander) and 180 grit sandpaper-any coarser and you will see scratches through your paint.

[NickDawson]

Awesome idea! Got a plethora of sanders (I am not for want of power tools after remodeling my house) - I'll start with some 180 and go lighter from there.

[brucejohn]

Thanks for asking Nick, I was too embarrassed to. Last time I asked what some initials were the answer was some internet slang my 11 year old knew.

What a great suggestion. The tub on my SIIa looks like the PO took an angle grinder to it. Realized his mistake (or ran out of steam real fast) and stopped.

[thixon]

Nick,

I feel obligated to mention that you should wear a respirator or face mask at the least. Lungs full of old paint and aluminum dust is'nt cool.

Brucejohn,
next time ask. I propably should have exlained anyway.

[Bertha]

Awesome idea! Got a plethora of sanders (I am not for want of power tools after remodeling my house) - I'll start with some 180 and go lighter from there.


All you will need is 180 and primer. You should not need to go any finer on the paper, especially if using an epoxy primer, sealer or an etch primer w/high build primer on top(you should use 1 of the 3).

[Bertha]

Thanks for asking Nick, I was too embarrassed to. Last time I asked what some initials were the answer was some internet slang my 11 year old knew.



Internet jargon and acronyms aren't my stong point either. Never be afraid to ask. Anyone who pokes fun at someone asking a question is just a fool!

[brucejohn]

Internet jargon and acronyms aren't my stong point either. Never be afraid to ask. Anyone who pokes fun at someone asking a question is just a fool!

To be clear no one here has poked fun at me. I allowed my own insecurity to inhibit my question. Everyone here has been great to a noob like myself. This is the best forum I have participated in for information and welcoming newbies/inexperienced mechanics.

That is a tribute to everyone here.

[bmohan55]

To be clear no one here has poked fun at me. I allowed my own insecurity to inhibit my question. Everyone here has been great to a noob like myself. This is the best forum I have participated in for information and welcoming newbies/inexperienced mechanics.

That is a tribute to everyone here.

X2!!!!
couldn't have said it better! My truck wouldn't be in the parking lot here at work w/o this board.

[NickDawson]

Going to try my hand at a few rattle cans of self etching primer tonight. The interior of the hard top is about as rough as the exterior. Should it treat it exactly the same?