clutch not engaging?

[onecross]

So we just tried to drive my 1960 series II 109 sw (for the first time) it and for some reason the clutch seams to be stuck. The clutch system has been bled and seams to operate correctly... Any advise on how to remedy not this would be great. I have attached some videos and pictures.
Thanks

-Mat
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/onecross/landrover/DSC05855-1.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/onecross/landrover/DSC05856-1.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/onecross/landrover/DSC05856-2.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFqXxR1aXAQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbfCK58Y3po

[Nium]

What exactly do you mean by the clutch isn't engaging? You aren't able to shift gears when you depress the clutch pedal? You can shift gears when you depress the clutch pedal but the Landy doesn't move when you let up the clutch pedal? When you push down on the clutch pedal the clutch disk doesn't disengage so that power is still transferred through to the transmission?

I watched your U-tube videos and it was a nice attempt but I couldn't really tell what they were suppose to be showing.:o

[onecross]

Nium,

thanks for the response sorry for not being clear i wasnt sure what to say.... when it is running i can not get it to go into any gear. the Land rover lurched forward when it was in third and then i started the motor but then shut off proptly. Does this help you help me?
ya... that was my atempt of showing what the clutch was doing through the acess panel of the bell house...

[Nium]

I'm guessing you replaced the pressure plate and clutch disk as the pressure plate in the photo looks new. If yes, have you followed the procedures to adjust the pedal position, Clutch Master Cylinder free play, and Pedal free play. It looks also like you still have the Early model of the clutch slave cylinder and not the Hydrostatic slave cylinder so you would need to verify that it is Early model and follow the procedure for the Early model (Early model has a return spring attached to the straight slave cylinder operating lever). If it is the later Hydrostatic slave cylinder follow that procedure to adjust.

It looks like the clutch withdrawal sleeve (as seen in pictures) isn't moving far enough forward to push in the fingers of the pressure plate to allow the pressure plate to stop squeezing the clutch disk to the flywheel.

Cheers

[Nium]

Here's a link with pictures with what I mean by the clutch withdrawal sleeve isn't moving far enough forward onto the pressure plate fingers...

http://www.automotivearticles.com/Clutch_Operation_Explained.shtml

[onecross]

I have adjusted the hydrolics as much as i can and i think the pressure plate may be stuck. would that be a possibility?

[Nium]

I have adjusted the hydrolics as much as i can and i think the pressure plate may be stuck. would that be a possibility?

Yes, but probably not the problem.

Can you see the withdrawal sleeve push in the fingers of the pressure plate toward the flywheel?

Please, post a picture of the slave cylinder.

[I Leak Oil]

It's not uncommon for the friction disc to get stuck to the flywheel because the truck sits for a period of time.

[Nium]

The cross-shaft may not have been mated to the withdrawal fork correctly. There should have been maintained a 7/16" gap between the withdrawal sleeve and the withdrawal unit housing when the cross shaft was reinserted to the withdrawal fork. If the gap was not maintained for the withdrawal sleeve then the cross-shaft would have been inserted off center to the withdrawal fork which would keep the withdrawal sleeve from being able to move far enough forward to properly engage the splines on the pressure plate thus disengaging the clutch disk regardless of how much the slave cylinder was adjusted out.

You probably are going to need to take the tranny back off the engine remove the withdrawal unit and remove the cross-shaft from the withdrawal fork put a 7/16" rod or something else that will maintain a 7/16" gap between the withdrawal sleeve and the withdrawal unit housing then reinsert the cross shaft to the withdrawal fork. Then reassemble everything and it should work fine.

The clutch disk can become rusted to the face of the flywheel, but I'm guessing you just replaced the pressure plate and clutch disk so there shouldn't have been sufficent time, a year or more of the Landy sitting, for the clutch disk to rust to the flywheel face.

[Nium]

If you have the "Repair Operation Manual" Part# AKM8159 (Green Bible) reference Operation C-15, page 61-C, Step 5 and 6.

[Sputnicker]

When you say you "started it for the first time" do you mean since reassembly, or after it has been sitting a long time? If it's been sitting a long time, I second the notion that it may be the clutch disk is stuck to the flywheel.

[Bertha]

I have to agree with the clutch is stuck theory others have suggested, if in fact the truck has been sitting for awhile. If this is the case, you may be able to free it without pulling the trans.
Here is how:
Find a flat to slight decline, straight area and put your truck in 2nd or 3rd gear and try to start it. It will lurch forward a bit but eventually get going. Once you are cruising, start pressing on the clutch pedal several times. This should free it up.

[onecross]

Yes, but probably not the problem.

Can you see the withdrawal sleeve push in the fingers of the pressure plate toward the flywheel?

Please, post a picture of the slave cylinder.

The withdrawal sleeve almost pushes the fingers but dont seam to make it to actually pushing. I will post a picture of the slave cylinder when i get to the shop in about an hour. Thanks for the help diagnosing the problem.

[Nium]

Have you recently replaced the clutch disk, pressure plate, and throw out bearing?

[onecross]

When you say you "started it for the first time" do you mean since reassembly, or after it has been sitting a long time? If it's been sitting a long time, I second the notion that it may be the clutch disk is stuck to the flywheel.

I just checked the time date stamp on a picture to see when we put the motor and trans together and it appears that we did that 10/31/08. so im guessing that could cause the problem... what do yall think?

here is a picture of the trans and motor on the frame 10/31/09:

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/onecross/landrover/DSC01421-1.jpg

[Nium]

If the Landy has been in a garage since then I would doubt the clutch is stuck to the flywheel. Especially since, by your pictures of the withdrawal sleeve, it doesn't seem like the withdrawal sleeve is pushing in the pressure plate fingers.

[Bertha]

[QUOTE=Nium;40177]If the Landy has been in a garage since then I would doubt the clutch is stuck to the flywheel. QUOTE]

I would have to agree.

[Nium]

Mat,

I just looked through your old posts to get a better idea of what's going on with your rig. Wow! You've been at this restoration since 2007. I bet it's gonna be awesome! Must be a real let down to have come this far to have the clutch giving you issues especially when you were all ready to pull it out of the garage for the first time in, literally, years. Congratulations though on getting it this far along in your restoration!

Post pics of the finished rig when you get this little issue sorted.

[onecross]

Mat,

I just looked through your old posts to get a better idea of what's going on with your rig. Wow! You've been at this restoration since 2007. I bet it's gonna be awesome! Must be a real let down to have come this far to have the clutch giving you issues especially when you were all ready to pull it out of the garage for the first time in, literally, years. Congratulations though on getting it this far along in your restoration!

Post pics of the finished rig when you get this little issue sorted.

Here is the latest picture. If only it would drive...

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/onecross/landrover/DSC05854-1.jpg

[I Leak Oil]

If your throw out isn't making it to the pressure plate fingers then perhaps you need to take a look at the cross shaft assembly. The pins and the sleeve might be put together incorrectly or may just have too much slop. There is a small spherical bearing that can wear out causing the shaft not to rotate enough also.

[onecross]

here are a couple picutres that were requested:

side view:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/onecross/landrover/DSC05873-1.jpg

top view:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/onecross/landrover/DSC05870-1.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/onecross/landrover/DSC05871-1.jpg

[onecross]

I went and pulled out the old clutch pressure plate and they all look different. The truck currently has a series IIA trans in it.

All three look different:

original set up that was in the II when i bought the truck in later 2006
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/onecross/landrover/DSC05876-1.jpg

clutch clutch pressure plate out of series IIA that came with the IIA trans and motor:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/onecross/landrover/DSC05875-1-1.jpg

the one in now is a "ap borg & beck clutch parts" (thats what is says on the box) and came with the Canadian military rebuilt motor.

sorry for all the pictures but i think they say a lot more then i can tell yall... this is my first rebuild ever and i really appreciate all the help and advise.

[Nium]

The more pics the better :D. One pic says a thousand words.

There are some things about your slave cylinder fitted to the vehicle. It is a Late type hydrostatic setup you don't need the return spring fit to the cranked operating rod you should remove it. There looks to be a spacer between the slave cylinder and the support bracket there shouldn't be one. The support bracket for the slave cylinder should be straight up and down where yours is pitched to the front of the vehicle. Why?

[Nium]

I went and looked at my setup for the support bracket for the slave cylinder and I was wrong it is pitched somewaht to the front of the vehicle. As long as yours is bolted flat to the bell housing it should be fine. Sorry about that. I'm going to bet removing that spacer is gonna give you the distance you need to get the withdrawal sleeve to engage the pressure plate.

[onecross]

I think i may have figured out what i did wrong.

this one is without the spacer thing:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/onecross/landrover/DSC05855-1.jpg

and this one has it:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/onecross/landrover/DSC05875-1-1.jpg

I need to take the spacer and put it on the new pressure plate. Is this correct?

Thanks,
-Mat

[Bertha]

I think i may have figured out what i did wrong.

I need to take the spacer and put it on the new pressure plate. Is this correct?

Thanks,
-Mat

Mat
I think the spacer Nium was referring to was the black one in between the slave cylinder and the mounting bracket. I know that I have seen that spacer before, but I dont believe it goes with the bracket you have mounted on your truck. Its hard for me to remember which has which and I am not in my shop to look at a parts book.

[Nium]

Mat
I think the spacer Nium was referring to was the black one in between the slave cylinder and the mounting bracket.

Exactly as Bertha said. Look at your picture
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/onecross/landrover/DSC05873-1.jpg


Remove the spring attached to the slave cylinder arm. Remove the black spacer (looks to be about 1/4" in thickness) between the slave cylinder and the bracket the slave cylinder is attached to. The spring is for the early style slave cylinder not the hydrostatic setup you have, don't use it. I don't know what the spacer is for I've never seen one for a hydrostatic slave cylinder.

The new pressure plates DO NOT use the center spacer piece like the old ones. DO NOT try to fit one to your new pressure plate.

The hydrostatic slave is self adjusting. The pressure plate itself is all that is needed to push the slave cylinder back. That is why you need to remove that big rusty spring in the picture.

[Nium]

Here's a picture of a slave cylinder to show you that the spring and spacer are absent. The PO for this pic had welded a bit of rod to the slave push rod so the push rod is longer then it's suppose to be and the owner whom took the pic (not my rig) was bleeding the slave so you can see a tube full of fluid hanging down in front of the bell housing.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2632/3999224020_278b3415f0.jpg

[onecross]

Exactly as Bertha said. Look at your picture



Remove the spring attached to the slave cylinder arm. Remove the black spacer (looks to be about 1/4" in thickness) between the slave cylinder and the bracket the slave cylinder is attached to. The spring is for the early style slave cylinder not the hydrostatic setup you have, don't use it. I don't know what the spacer is for I've never seen one for a hydrostatic slave cylinder.

The new pressure plates DO NOT use the center spacer piece like the old ones. DO NOT try to fit one to your new pressure plate.


The rover i took the trans out of had the same pressure plate and spring on it (out of a series IIA)i some how added the spacer to the slave so i will remove that. the new pressure plate is identical to the old one other then not having that spacer in are you positive that i do not need it? sorry for questioning but i really want to get this right.

Thanks for the advice,
-Mat

[Bertha]

The rover i took the trans out of had the same pressure plate and spring on it (out of a series IIA)i some how added the spacer to the slave so i will remove that. the new pressure plate is identical to the old one other then not having that spacer in are you positive that i do not need it? sorry for questioning but i really want to get this right.

Thanks for the advice,
-Mat

Mat
Here is the story(now that I am back in my shop I am thinking a lot clearer)
There are 2 different setups depending on which clutch you go with 9" or 9.5". It appears your truck originally had a 9.5 clutch in it(hence the spacer you were refering to on the pressure plate which is non removable) The clutch you currently have on your truck appears to be a 9" which does not require the spacer that Nium was referring to. Soooo, your 2 options are refit the 9.5 clutch or remove the spacer under your slave cylinder. You can also remove the spring on the side of your slave cyl. This should fix your problem.

[Nium]

The rover i took the trans out of had the same pressure plate and spring on it (out of a series IIA)i some how added the spacer to the slave so i will remove that. the new pressure plate is identical to the old one other then not having that spacer in are you positive that i do not need it? sorry for questioning but i really want to get this right.

Mat, don't worry about questioning it's the only way to find out what you want to know. Personally I always to try and ask as many questions as I can think of.

In terms of the spring attached to the slave cylinder reference in the Green Bible Part 1, Operation B1-9, Page 20-B top left of page under
"The following information concerns early and late type clutches.

Late models have a hydrostatic clutch, that is, clutch mechanism which requires no adjustment for the life of the clutch plate.

(c) Return spring is not fitted to the operating lever on late models."

In regards to the pressure plate.
The pressure plate (your picture DSC05876-1.jpg) that was originally fit to the truck is a 9" coil spring type pressure plate usually they are replaced with the larger 9.5" pressure plate and clutch disk.

The other old pressure plate (image DSC05875-1-1.jpg) is the later type 9.5" pressure plate normally fitted with 9.5" clutch disk.

The one you have installed should be a 9.5" pressure plate and clutch disk. After looking at various parts suppliers the pressure plate (DSC05875-1-1.jpg) is still available but it is not necessary. The one you have fitted is the same one that I fit to my rig when my original coil spring pressure plate died. The center piece isn't necessary many, many vehicles use pressure plates exactly like the one you have, in the tranny right now. Don't worry about that center piece it's not necessary even if you can buy a new pressure plate with it fitted you don't need to. Also the center piece is a part that is installed by the manufactorer so it wouldn't be a good idea to try and take it off and fit it to your pressure plate you wouldn't want it to fall off inside the bell housing, bad things would happen if it did. Borg and Beck were the original suppliers of the pressure plate. Green Bible Part 1, General Data Page 26-B, Section "Clutch, diaphgram spring type". I believe Borg and Beck is now renamed AP Borg and Beck. The pressure plate should work fine once you get the spacer removed from between the slave cylinder and the slave cylinder support bracket.

Once you have the slave cylinder back in the bracket follow the procedure in the Green Bible Part 1, Operation B1-9, Page 21-B "Hydrostatic clutch mechanism-Late Models" to properly adjust the slave cylinder. Use method "a" or "b" in step 2, whichever you find easier.

Never hesitate to post questions if you have any. :thumb-up: Hope that helps.

Thanks for the pic of your Landy looks real good you done a helluva great job!

Cheers,
Walker

[Les Parker]

Hello there,

Looking at the pix. it appears you have a Series III pressure plate fitted, not the 9.5" IIa style with the triangular spacer for the clutch realease.
Please confirm the style of clutch cover fitted.

[Nium]

Les,

If it is a Series III clutch cover are there any issues with using it with a Series IIA slave cylinder set-up. I ask because, from what I remember, I had gotten a Series III 9.5" pressure plate (clutch cover) and clutch dick from you guys years ago and have been running them in my Series IIA, with the hydrostatic slave cylinder set-up, without a second thought.

Not to mention I'd hate to have been giving Mat bad advice.

[onecross]

Hello there,

Looking at the pix. it appears you have a Series III pressure plate fitted, not the 9.5" IIa style with the triangular spacer for the clutch realease. P
lease confirm the style of clutch cover fitted.

Thanks Les!

i contacted Aurther at Rovers north and ordered the 9.5 IIA Pressure plate.

just wondering.. would it be an option to pull the triangular spacer off the old clutch plate and put it in the 9.5 pressure plate?

Thanks again!

[Bertha]

Thanks Les!

i contacted Aurther at Rovers north and ordered the 9.5 IIA Pressure plate.

just wondering.. would it be an option to pull the triangular spacer off the old clutch plate and put it in the 9.5 pressure plate?

Thanks again!

I believe the 9.5" plate comes with the triangular spacer.

[Les Parker]

The spacer is pressed onto the diaphragm and the diameter within the fingers are different, so I do not think this would be viable.

:(

[Les Parker]

If this is a late IIa with 9.5" clutch plate/cover, there should be a triangular flange in the centre of the diaphragm, form the pix I cannot see this.