Loud bang, dead rover - transmission? [Archive]

NickDawson

12-20-2009, 10:53 AM

Well I knew things were feeling too good lately with the truck...
We went to pull out from the curb this morning (in the snow, in 4wd high) and BANG then no more movement.

I thought it was the axle based on what I had read in previous threads. I cycled through every gear, including low range, and got nothing.

Something is making a disconcerting whhhrrrr sound that I tried to document on video. The high pitch you hear at first is 3rd high. The lower pitch is reverse high

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/4200629750/

Its not a great day to get on my back under the truck, without a warm dry place to work things are going to have to sit until the thaw. When I do get a chance, what trouble shooting measures to you guys suggest? Is it a look inside the tranny or clutch or...?

Im trying to keep my cool but expecting this is not going to have a pleasant outcome... Im weighing spending the money on a transmission or a plane ticket to find the seller (although in fairness, I was warned about importing a truck from the UK...and it could be the result of something I have done)...but I still want to take my aggression out on him :) (kidding, of course)

navydevildoc

12-20-2009, 11:25 AM

Well, the clutch seems to be working just fine, as the sound stops when you put the clutch in, yes?

Try some other quick tests:

Leave the transfer case in High, but put the transmission in neutral and let out the clutch. Any noise?

Next, put the transmission in any gear, but first is probably best, but put the transfer case in neutral with the red knob. Let out the clutch. Noise?

This might narrow it down to either the tranny or transfer case.

navydevildoc

12-20-2009, 11:26 AM

I should have added that the fact that the sound is changing pitch when you change gears means that the problem is more on the "rear" side of the transmission, or in the transfer case.

The fact that the sound is much higher is due to the output side of the box spinning faster for the higher gear.

greasyhandsagain

12-20-2009, 11:54 AM

O Brother The video..the AUDIO...horrible to watch/hear.

I feel your pain. An unresolved mechanical problem with the Rover, and weather conspiring against you...been there done that.

Cant offer you any help/advice other than that the first horrible sound is not unlike the nasty noise I had when I put in clutch number 1, which was returned as 'defective'. maybe opening up the inspection plate under the shifter can show you something?

BTW despite the horror of the noise, Im tempted to use it as a ring tone on my phone.

Cheer up it will all get sorted out sooner or later. You may best to get someone down to look at it who "knows" rovers.

Apis Mellifera

12-20-2009, 03:38 PM

Try OD on and off too. I'd remove the inspection covers to see how far the power is getting. Maybe go fishing down the holes with a magnet.

With the engine off, try lifting different combinations of wheels off the ground and TC gear selections, and then spinning the lifted wheel. You can probably pinpoint the location of the broken bits that way, but it may be a moot point, as I believe you need a new TC.

Apis Mellifera

12-20-2009, 03:51 PM

After listening to it again (cringing all the way), it sounds to me like the Hi/Lo range selector is between gears.

Here's a picture of my TC. The green arrow is pointing to the sliding Hi/Lo gear. The OD is on the far left.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v307/dandomatic2/Land_Rover/DSC00887.jpg

If you have no movement regardless of gear lever positions, the problem has to be in this section of the TC. Either the output shaft of the gearbox broke, the OD broke, or the arrowed gear area broke. There are other less-likely causes, but I'd look at the pictured area first.

NickDawson

12-20-2009, 05:47 PM

Thanks for the input everyone!
My first though was that the OD had popped out, which it is kown to do from time to time. I could live without the OD which would be a more palatable solution than a new transfer case.

I'll see what kind of inspection I can do once it thaws and drys out around here.

Apis - with your later theory that the transfer case is between gears - wouldn't that be the best case? I worked the red knob back and fourth a lot (again thinking it had just popped out of gear).

greasyhandsagain

12-20-2009, 06:14 PM

dont totally rely on the position of the transfer lever, if you have snow/ice wedged into the sliding pins you may be blocked. Get a hair dryer in there and defrost the pins/linkage at the base of the lever,.

Once long ago I was convinced Id sheard a halfshaft, even pulled the diff...when all it was was the damn transfer lever wasnt engaging high.

good luck Remember saying a silent prayer to Maurice Wilkes DOES work!

May the Alumiforce be with you!

Apis Mellifera

12-20-2009, 06:22 PM

I guess that depends on how it got between gears and why it won't shift. If you look at the arrowed gear, just above that (in the pic) is a smooth area. In that smooth area to the left is a "thing" in that groove. That "thing" is the shift fork. When you work the lever, that fork, riding in the groove, slides the arrowed gear back and forth, engaging high and low range. It's possible that the fork broke, allowing it to jump out of high range. It's also possible that the teeth on the smallest straight cut gear pictured (missing every other tooth) have broken. I'm speculating on the between gears idea based completely on the sound. It's hard to say what actually happened. For what it's worth, I took this picture because in my TC, the arrowed gear was quite wobbly. I don't know if that's normal, but that's what I found. I also don't know if the gear gets really wobbly and how they break.

It would be pretty simple to remove the middle seat and access panel to pull those inspection covers.

Something else you can try is to set the parking brake and try to roll it. If the axles are busted, it will still roll.

brucejohn

12-20-2009, 07:38 PM

Bummer Nick. Praying for you and Rover.

LaneRover

12-20-2009, 08:10 PM

I am voting for (hoping for?) what Greasyhands said. Don't rely on the position of the transfer lever. Maybe something underneath came loose.

Brent

griswald

12-21-2009, 08:43 AM

Nick,
I am so sorry about your Rover. Please as hard as it is, try not to let it get you down. For alot of us, me included, it is not always about the money (although that is painful!) it is about the fact that you can't drive the vehicle!

Griswald

bmohan55

12-21-2009, 09:45 AM

Man, you were so stoked in your earlier post and now this....bummer. I've had to go thru just about every system in my truck EXCEPT the tranny, it's failure is my biggest fear, and the fact that it can happen w/o any forwarning is scary. Hang in there and remember how great the truck is (and will be again) when shes back running.

LaneRover

12-21-2009, 11:48 AM

NickDawson

12-21-2009, 12:01 PM

Nick

Looking through some of your other photos I thought that maybe this link will cheer you up a bit - or give you a bit of a laugh at least while you try to figure out what is up with your truck.

http://bakonvodka.com/

Brent

WHAT?!?!? Someone beat me to market with bacon vodka!?!? There goes my retirement plan :)

Thanks guys for the uplifting well wishes. I think my family was surprised by my mood, I've reached the zen stage of rover acceptance. It is what it is, it's not my daily driver and it will run again some day...it just might be a few months (and a lot of jabs from friends who just don't understand :rolleyes: )

Im anxious to at least diagnose the problem with the hope that is may be something miraculous like a broken linkage causing it to be between high and low range.

the one thing I am worried about (b/c I think stanta's elfs already secured a winch and some other off road stuff)... are they all this fragile? I feel like they can't be - even for the age of these trucks, the videos and real life experience I have seen lives up to the hype. So why would pulling away from the curb in 4wd high cause the transfer case to have a meltdown? I guess if it was abused most of its life then it was only a matter of time... but I want to get the truck to the stage where I am not constantly fearful of something braking under relatively normal conditions (or is that called the joy of ownership :) )

I have also given some thought to finding a parts truck... :D

Apis Mellifera

12-21-2009, 01:14 PM

I don't think it's a matter of being fragile. It's an old truck and everything will eventually break. My frame is held together with nothing but hope and denial (waiting for RN to discount the 88 chassis or at least offer cheaper shipping) and along with that and my wobbly gear TC, I lashed a log chain to my storage building and drug is across my yard, spinning tires in 4lo. Friday I hauled a load and a half of firewood. I wouldn't abuse the truck, dumping the clutch etc, but I wouldn't have any reservations "using" the drivetrain.

I just finished playing with the SIII gearbox/TC I have on the shelf. It's very difficult to get the TC between gears, but I was able to do it and did produce a sound similar to that in the video. The lever detents that hold the the TC in gear are pretty robust. Although possible that the lever is being blocked from fully engaging, it seems pretty unlikely. The bottom of the red lever is bolted to the gearbox bellhoushing. A few inches up from that is a ball. This ball rides in a round bit that's bolted onto the end of the shaft that shifts the TC. There would have to be a lot of very tenacious debris wedged into the lever to prevent it from engaging Hi or Low.

I've been focusing on the TC, but it is possible that something in the gearbox has broken. If the layshaft or outputshaft broke, it might produce that same sound.

Good Luck and make sure you post pictures of the diagnosis.

Bertha

12-21-2009, 01:43 PM

WHAT?!?!? Someone beat me to market with bacon vodka!?!? There goes my retirement plan :)

Thanks guys for the uplifting well wishes. I think my family was surprised by my mood, I've reached the zen stage of rover acceptance. It is what it is, it's not my daily driver and it will run again some day...it just might be a few months (and a lot of jabs from friends who just don't understand :rolleyes: )

Im anxious to at least diagnose the problem with the hope that is may be something miraculous like a broken linkage causing it to be between high and low range.

the one thing I am worried about (b/c I think stanta's elfs already secured a winch and some other off road stuff)... are they all this fragile? I feel like they can't be - even for the age of these trucks, the videos and real life experience I have seen lives up to the hype. So why would pulling away from the curb in 4wd high cause the transfer case to have a meltdown? I guess if it was abused most of its life then it was only a matter of time... but I want to get the truck to the stage where I am not constantly fearful of something braking under relatively normal conditions (or is that called the joy of ownership :) )

I have also given some thought to finding a parts truck... :D

Nick
I feel your pain, however there is no cheap way to own a Rover. They are certainly not a fragile truck, however miles and miles of hard use will eventually take its toll on even the heartiest of drivetrains. By getting a truck from the UK, you initially saved some money, however in the long run, you will end up spending whatever it is you thought you saved on the unknowns. Unfortunately the only way to have a near bulletproof Rover is to go through every system one by one and replace what is worn out. Otherwise you go down the road that you are currently on, which is to fix things as they break. Don't loose hope, this is just the facts of owning an old car. Eventually everything that is going to break, will, and then you will fix it and all will be well. BTW a parts truck is not going to help you with your current issues as that presents you with a entirely new set of unknowns. Best to fix what you have and any fix you do, make it a quality one, so you dont have to revisit it again. Remember that, if in fact you do need to rebuild the trans, most places charge under 2K for this service(once you have removed the trans)

SafeAirOne

12-21-2009, 03:48 PM

NickDawson

12-21-2009, 05:18 PM

Take it from somebody with his engine in a million pieces in the garage right now...You didn't just buy an old land rover, you bought a whole lifestyle. Part of that lifestyle is having to fix the broken stuff. It happens. :thumb-up:

Ha! Thanks again guys - really am rolling with the punches on this one.

I'll keep everyone posted after the thaw and diagnosis is more complete.

Moose

12-21-2009, 08:43 PM

Many, many moons ago, my truck did something similar. Nice big bang and complete loss of drive. After giving everything a good coat of looking at, I decided to yank the Over Drive off. Sure enough, the gear/spline thingy (don't want to get too technical :rolleyes:) stripped out, and that was that. Pretty poor design really as no oil can get in there to lube the splines and over time they wear till they fail.

http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt190/wolfe88/DSCN5453.jpg

http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt190/wolfe88/DSCN5454.jpg

I had had it apart at some point long before the failure and noticed some wear, so greased things up, but the wear was too far advanced and eventually it failed.

Yours may may have suffered the same fate. Pop the OD off and have a look. If that's is the problem, you'll need to have, or find, an original gear and rear cover to button things back up.

Brett

Jim-ME

12-22-2009, 04:30 AM

I also think the OD is the cause of the problem. If that is the case the part can be replaced and you are going again. That would be my first check. Just hope the rest of the OD is OK if the drive gear is the problem.
Jim

NickDawson

12-23-2009, 10:32 AM

Did one last bit of diagnosis work before leaving town - applied the parking brake - same whhhrrrr sound, clutch out did not stall.

bpj911

12-23-2009, 11:27 AM

Just move all the damn levers until something happens. I'd bet on the t-case lever. :)

NickDawson

12-23-2009, 04:09 PM

Just move all the damn levers until something happens. I'd bet on the t-case lever. :)

Ohhhh believe me, I tried them all...I looked like Jim Henson in there pulling levers left and right...in fact I yanked the OD rod so hard that the lock nut came lose :)

Once it thaws and we are back home I'll start spinning wheels

NickDawson

12-24-2009, 07:22 PM

So, the rover may move again sooner than expected...
Santa brough me a warn winch :D

more on that anyother time

Bostonian1976

12-24-2009, 08:36 PM

...I looked like Jim Henson in there pulling levers left and right.

hilarious

Nium

12-24-2009, 08:44 PM

So, the rover may move again sooner than expected...
Santa brough me a warn winch :D

more on that anyother time

Don't get it stuck up any trees! "Gods must be Crazy" reference.

Merry Christmas

TeriAnn

12-26-2009, 11:28 AM

I've been focusing on the TC, but it is possible that something in the gearbox has broken. If the layshaft or outputshaft broke, it might produce that same sound.

Could be a broken overdrive. You can replace it with the stock gear & back plate to check. I'd go there first since you have already played with the levers. There's a reason why people with overdrives tend to keep all the old non overdrive parts in the truck so the OD can be removed away from home.

Layshafts commonly break and when they do it feels & sounds about the same as a rear axle snapping. When mine broke I still had fourth gear, which is lucky because I was at the California Oregon border and a long way from home. Fourth was the only gear I had.

Mostly the sound is associated with an axle breaking, transfercase popping out of gear, overdrive breaking or a gearbox shaft breaking.

Good luck & hopefully it is something easy & cheap to repair.

JimCT

12-26-2009, 02:29 PM

I agree, the two times I have broken a layshaft I always had some gear left, usually 4th. Fun driving home using low 4th and hi 4 only!

NickDawson

01-23-2010, 12:19 PM

We had an unexpected break in the weather this weekend so I got a chance to dig into the rover's issues for the first time since it died on me.

I've learned one thing, I still have no clue what I am doing :D

I've taken off the inspection panels on the over drive, transfer case and gear box (I think). The symptoms are strange. It occurred to me in the middle of the night last week that I could do an audible diagnosis - if engaging or disengaging the OD did not change the pitch, it must be the OD right? Well interestingly enough, the pitch changes but nothing is moving. None of the gears that I can see via access panels are turning at all.. in the fact the only time I see movement is when the OD is in its neutral (b/t engaged and disengaged) and the clutch is out (and sometimes even when it is depressed).

Anyone have any ideas or education for me? What does this tell us? I dont mind continuing to disassemble things and take the OD off...but not sure what that does for me yet. Could this be a clutch issue?

Have a look for yourselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDBZN3Qd8bo
I still cannot figure out how to use the youtube embed option on the forums... I've tried adding the URL and the video's code... any tips?

Apis Mellifera

01-23-2010, 12:51 PM

First, don't make it make those noises any more!

Second, remove the OD and I bet you'll find a stripped OD clutch sleeve.

http://www.faireyoverdrive.com/images/ClutchSleeve&BearingRTC7170&71.jpg
http://www.faireyoverdrive.com/images/ClutchSleeve&BearingRTC7170&71.jpg

The reason you see movement when the OD is in N is because it is free wheeling and the TC, immediately downstream, is no longer providing resistance (trying to make the truck move) and so the clutch sleeve doesn't slip. When it goes into gear, the clutch sleeve isn't strong enough to make the truck move so it slips. The clutch sleeve is a square-cut gear/bearing thing (pictured) that bolts onto the output shaft of the gearbox. It goes into and drives the OD. Sadly, if the easily-replaceable clutch sleeve is toast, the not-so-easily-replaceable driven gear in the OD is toast too.

That's my (revised) theory, anyway.

brucejohn

01-23-2010, 12:52 PM

Nick, I was just wondering how you were coming yesterday.

If my truck was showing these symptoms (no movement in gearbox or overdrive) I would be inclined to pull the transmission off. I will be interested to hear what the experienced rover mechanics suggest.

Edit [Oops, I missed that the gearbox is moving when the overdrive is in 'neutral'. Scratch pulling the transmission. (just paint a big "L" in my forehead)]

Sending good thoughts your way.

NickDawson

01-23-2010, 01:19 PM

Nick, I was just wondering how you were coming yesterday.

Edit [Oops, I missed that the gearbox is moving when the overdrive is in 'neutral'. Scratch pulling the transmission. (just paint a big "L" in my forehead)]

Sending good thoughts your way.
Dont count yourself out yet - you may still be very right... the gearbox is not moving at all from what I can tell.

At least there is no movement from the gear I can see in the most forward of the access panels - is that the gear box?

NickDawson

01-23-2010, 01:20 PM

First, don't make it make those noises any more!

Second, remove the OD and I bet you'll find a stripped OD clutch sleeve.

That's my (revised) theory, anyway.
Thanks Apis - I'll see if I can get it off and see what comes next.

NickDawson

01-23-2010, 02:08 PM

OK! This is getting fun :) I love this board - post a video, get some input, go back out and start turning a wrench. Thanks guys for all the help and support.

Pulled the OD and found a nice shiny gear / shaft and guess what, it spins with the engine and no more ghastly sound!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSm2-riZrhc

So does that mean the OD is toast? I cannot see anything in the clutch shaft (is that even what this is?) that looks stripped. I also cannot see any way to get into the OD any further than I already am.

What are my next steps? Can I order a factor gear and back plate for the transmission and start motoring again? If I want to attempt to repair the OD how do I go about it?

Here's looking into the shaft of the OD. I bumped the contrast, at least as much as one can do with an iPhone photo. The teeth in there do not feel stripped.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4026/4297816655_596d63091d_m.jpg

Here's the gear/shaft from the transmission, it also looks and feels solid
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2733/4297817031_d30cce5942.jpg

Apis Mellifera

01-23-2010, 02:32 PM

Post a closer/larger picture of the inside of the OD where the clutch sleeve mates.

The thing in the square (attached picture) is the clutch sleeve, which I linked above. The arrow points to the gear. If you're lucky, the input shaft of the OD (the female geared portion that mates with the arrowed gear) is not damaged. If that's the case, you could simply replace the clutch sleeve. If the OD is damaged, I'd recommend either having RDS rebuild it or possibly more economical, buy a replacement secondhand OD.

rovers2a

01-23-2010, 02:33 PM

i believe you can rebuld the over drive. that exact same thing happened to our over drive. once on the dormi and once on the 109. both times stranded on the highway. FWIW forget about the over drive option they only last around 40-60 anyway. also when engaged they exert presure on the transmission bearings, ever noticed that the whinning is louder with over drive engaged. better off with high ration transfer box or high ratio diffs, if you got freewheel hubs dump those too. or next will be railko bushings. at least you got a quick easy fix, and not a new transmission. good luck

NickDawson

01-23-2010, 03:25 PM

Good excuse to go play with a new lens :)
More on flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/sets/72157623269067402/)
Im not entirely sure I understand this clutch sleeve thing - the part Alpis drew the arrow on spins now and I think is in normal shape. Although now that I look at the picture up close, maybe it is chewed up (though it does not feel like it is)... Im also thinking about that loud bang that is the title of this thread. How would a shredded female gear cause that bang?
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4019/4298742980_487019e193_b.jpg

heres a better shot of the inside of the OD's shaft - which also looks in good shape
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4038/4298744514_aefa7c5d18.jpg

SafeAirOne

01-23-2010, 04:12 PM

I admittedly have a limited understanding of how the overdrive works, but presumably the input for the OD is in the center, driven by the gear that is under the spline nut on the transmisision output shaft. The OD output is through the gear around the outer circumference of the front of the OD, which engages the input gear of the transfer case.

Without the OD installed, the OD doesn't spin (duh!) AND the transfer case doesn't spin either, so your problem may be in either unit. The pitch of the nasty noise should change when you engage/disengage the OD in either case.

If it were me, I might try to eliminate the transfer case as a cause. I'd probably jack up one back wheel so it can spin freely, then put the transfer case in neutral and spin the handbrake drum and see how it feels. Then I'd probably put it in 2wd high and see how it feels and watch to see that the transfer case input gear (where the OD outer gear meshes) spins.

I might also drain the transfer case oil and see if there's anything in there that suggests damage.

I didn't bother to re-read this whole thread--I don't remember if you eliminated the transfer case shift system or not (the transfer case might not be fully shifting into gear. If it was only partially engaged and slipped out of engagement, it would do so with a loud pop or bang, such as you experienced originally.

It might be that you just cant fully engage the transfer case gears for some reason now and they may just be barely touching as they begin to meet, causing your horrible noise.

I've heard of people damaging those thin caps on the front of the transfer case that house the shifter rods, which caused their transfer case to not engage properly (see red arrow, below). Have you checked those for external damage/dents?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2690/4298876736_bb907779fd_o.jpg

Apis Mellifera

01-23-2010, 04:30 PM

BackInA88

01-23-2010, 04:31 PM

The piece with the red arrow engages the spline teeth inside the overdrive and from the picture it looks to me that most of those teeth in the O/D are sheared.:(

Steve

NickDawson

01-23-2010, 04:37 PM

The piece with the red arrow engages the spline teeth inside the overdrive and from the picture it looks to me that most of those teeth in the O/D are sheared.:(

Steve
I went out to feel around - they actually feel intact...then again, Im not sure what normal should feel like.
Im also going back to the loud bang- I can't imagine a gear sheering off be a bang so much as a grind.

SafeAirOne

01-23-2010, 04:39 PM

AHH...I see what you mean. I couldn't tell with all that grease on there what the gear splines looked like, but upon close examination of the photos, it would appear that the gear on the inside of the OD is nackered. Can't tell about the drive gear on the transmssion shaft still. Either way, parts are available through RDS if I'm not mistaken.

...Just checked. I am not mistaken.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, is that the mainshaft that has the worn splines on the OD?

NickDawson

01-23-2010, 04:42 PM

Yes.

I don't know why the part is called a clutch sleeve. Basically you need at least a clutch sleeve and an input shaft for the OD. Both of them are seriously broken. What I've labeled the mainshaft is actually the gearbox output shaft. I'd guess the loud bang was the combination of the last bits of metal holding the clutch sleeve and OD input shaft in contact letting go and the resulting drive train shock when it did let go.

Just saw your post Apis - I went out of order. Thanks for the markups on the pictures, helps a lot! If the teeth look trashed to you than thats good enough for me.

Am I still right to think that I can get the factory part, ditch the OD and be running again?

NickDawson

01-23-2010, 04:45 PM

Either way, parts are available through RDS if I'm not mistaken.

...Just checked. I am not mistaken.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, is that the mainshaft that has the worn splines on the OD?

Thanks for the great input today SafeAirOne!

Do you think I should repair the OD or ditch it all together? I'd love to have it working again if that's a feasible possibility. Ill call RDS first thing on monday.

SafeAirOne

01-23-2010, 04:50 PM

Nick, here's a good page for you involving overhaul of the OD. I didn't read the whole thing but it should say how to disassemble the OD:

http://www.nickslandrover.co.uk/archives/582

Apis Mellifera

01-23-2010, 05:07 PM

Am I still right to think that I can get the factory part, ditch the OD and be running again?

Yes. You'd need the pieces the PO removed when he installed the OD. Basically a large gear and the black piece pictured below:
http://www.lrseries.com/resources/user/bd1cf46393b2025f0e4fe159b8129ad9a33440ae/RTC2705-SERIES-3-GEARBOX-ASSY-COMPLETE.jpg

You could rebuild it and be pretty close in price to a second hand OD. I have a few pictures of an extra OD I have that show what your broken parts should look like:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v307/dandomatic2/

NickDawson

01-23-2010, 05:10 PM

http://www.lrseries.com/resources/user/bd1cf46393b2025f0e4fe159b8129ad9a33440ae/RTC2705-SERIES-3-GEARBOX-ASSY-COMPLETE.jpg

You could rebuild it and be pretty close in price to a second hand OD. I have a few pictures of an extra OD I have that show what your broken parts should look like:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v307/dandomatic2/

Sooooo that thing in the picture above? Just mail it to me, ok? You're a pal! :)

Nick, here's a good page for you involving overhaul of the OD. I didn't read the whole thing but it should say how to disassemble the OD:

http://www.nickslandrover.co.uk/archives/582

Great site - good find SafeAirOne - Going to give the rebuild a shot - got nothing to lose at this point :)

Apis Mellifera

01-23-2010, 05:14 PM

Sooooo that thing in the picture above? Just mail it to me, ok? You're a pal! :)

I could do that, but only if you pay me with a two-party, out of state, bad check.

Nium

01-23-2010, 08:10 PM

A copy of the Fairey/Superwinch overdrive manual can be printed out or downloaded from RDS. Copy of the link...

http://www.faireyoverdrive.com/guide/page1.htm

If that doesn't work go to...

http://www.roversdownsouth.com/about.htm

and click on "Fairey OD Parts" under "Misc. Parts" lower left side of the screen. The manual shows the plate and gear that are removed from the transfer case and which are replaced with the gear for the OD.

NickDawson

01-24-2010, 11:37 AM

What's the best way to get the broken gear off of the main shaft? Apis mentioned it going on with a hammer and chisel - is that the best way to reverse it too?

I;ve got the entire OD soaking in petrol now - going to go clean it up and start pulling it apart as per the guides posted above.

Apis Mellifera

01-24-2010, 12:37 PM

The hammer and chisel is the wrong way to do it, but it's still done that way. In one of the pictures I pointed to the gearbox output shaft nut. It requires a special socket to remove (properly) and to refit (properly). Bend the tab out on the retainer washer, remove the nut, and then pull the CS off. It might be stuck on there so a little light prying may be necessary.

SafeAirOne

01-24-2010, 12:45 PM

What's the best way to get the broken gear off of the main shaft? Apis mentioned it going on with a hammer and chisel - is that the best way to reverse it too?

The hammer and punch works but it is cartainly not the BEST way to do it. I've done it both ways and have found that the best way would be to use the (rather pricey) socket:

http://roversnorth.com/store/images/Product/medium/RNT0002.JPG
http://roversnorth.com/store/p-5705-tool-gearbox-mainshaft-series-ii-iia-and-iii.aspx

NickDawson

01-24-2010, 01:10 PM

Thanks again guys!
I went with the chisel and hammer b/c it is what I had. Found the retainer ring too - didn't realize it was there.

I started working on disassembling the OD. I ran out and bought some ring pullers. The ones I found at Lowes just weren't up to the task of pulling the clips on the OD. I did de-grease the input shaft. Its odd, Its clear that the teeth have some pits and damage, and I found metal shards...but they still feel pretty sharp and have good depth. I'm fairly sure that this is the problem, but its amazing that such little damage caused the entire system to fail.

The prices for the RDS replacements are pretty steep - thinking about going back to the factory gear setup for now and rebuilding later. Its unclear to me what I need from the RN site. Any thoughts?

Here's the clutch and gear from the main output shaft - same story. Teeth have depth and are sharp, but also clearly damaged. You can zoom way in on flickr and see the detail. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/sets/72157623269067402/)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2765/4301372870_5f59b892e2.jpg

Apis Mellifera

01-24-2010, 03:05 PM

The teeth shouldn't be sharp. They are square cut sort of like smaller versions of the gearbox output shaft splines. Looking at the larger pictures, it appears that most of the damage is to the OD input shaft.

BackInA88

01-24-2010, 04:01 PM

As bad as this looks the mating part in the overdrive looks worse.:eek:

Looking at the link to the pictures you posted.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2765/4301372870_5f59b892e2.jpg[/QUOTE]

SafeAirOne

01-24-2010, 06:26 PM

As bad as this looks the mating part in the overdrive looks worse.:eek:

Yeah--I'd like to see what the female splines look like with all the grease off of 'em--These on the male bit pictured are wasted!

Bertha

01-25-2010, 02:33 PM

better off with high ration transfer box or high ratio diffs,

Yes, that way you could pound out the bearings on your engine instead:rolleyes:

Jeff Aronson

01-25-2010, 02:49 PM

Nick,

The overdrive feature is nice - one of my Rovers has one and one does not - but it's not mandatory, even for highway driving. The overdrive did not become available for Land Rovers until the Series III and it was an authorized option to help improve gas mileage. The improvement is in the 2-3 mpg range, meaningful at $8-9.00/gallon, but less so at $3.00 per gallon. Yes, you can reduce engine rpm at 60-65 mph through the overdrive, but what usually happens is that we peg our Rovers to the floor anyway and just go faster, negating the advantage :).

Why not just get a final drive gear and end case for you Series III and try it for a while without the overdrive? Then you'll know whether the price for a rebuilt one is worth it for you.

BTW, are you running 15" or 16" wheels on your Rover? Just moving up to 16" wheels helps achieve some of the benefits without an overdrive.

Jeff

Bertha

01-25-2010, 02:56 PM

Why not just get a final drive gear and end case for your Series III and try it for a while without the overdrive? Then you'll know whether the price for a rebuilt one is worth it for you.

Nick
I have to agree with Jeff. Your best bet may be to obtain the original trans gear and cover, just to get going again, and remove the overdrive for now. You may find that once you dig deeper into the overdrive, that the cost of rebuilding it may be prohibitive. Your best bet is to ship it to RDS for a free evaluation.

Bertha

01-25-2010, 03:01 PM

The hammer and punch works but it is cartainly not the BEST way to do it. I've done it both ways and have found that the best way would be to use the (rather pricey) socket:

http://roversnorth.com/store/images/Product/medium/RNT0002.JPG
http://roversnorth.com/store/p-5705-tool-gearbox-mainshaft-series-ii-iia-and-iii.aspx

Actually our hosts are offering that at a pretty cheap price compared to this one at another vendor:

Land Rover Tool
Heavy Duty
Mainshaft nut spanner
LRT-37-509 or 600300
$155.00

NickDawson

01-25-2010, 05:06 PM

Why not just get a final drive gear and end case for you Series III and try it for a while without the overdrive? Then you'll know whether the price for a rebuilt one is worth it for you.
BTW, are you running 15" or 16" wheels on your Rover? Just moving up to 16" wheels helps achieve some of the benefits without an overdrive.
Jeff

Nick
I have to agree with Jeff. Your best bet may be to obtain the original trans gear and cover, just to get going again, and remove the overdrive for now. You may find that once you dig deeper into the overdrive, that the cost of rebuilding it may be prohibitive. Your best bet is to ship it to RDS for a free evaluation.

Thanks guys - I had hoped to spend some time researching both options today and getting some input. Thanks for the thoughts, helps a lot in the decision process! I'm inclined to follow your advice with the thought that even if I rebuild the OD at some point I'd have the spares to keep moving if the need arose.

Back to the question from above - so what do I need? Just a final drive gear and end cap?

Jeff Aronson

01-25-2010, 06:42 PM

Sorry, Nick, but I don't have my manual by my side here. However, I used to carry just the final drive and the end cap in my Rover "just in case." When an overdrive did fail once, that's all I remember swapping out to get the car running again. Rovers North -as well as others on this Forum - will know for certain.

Jeff

NickDawson

01-26-2010, 07:29 PM

The plot thickens...
I checked with our hosts and BA - it appears that the factory transmission end cap is a pretty rare item... as in, it cannot be purchased.

Anyone know of a source for used ones? I've heard mentions of Rover junk yards that will yank parts and sell em. Anyone got a lead?

HybridIIA

01-26-2010, 08:05 PM

Anyone know of a source for used ones? I've heard mentions of Rover junk yards that will yank parts and sell em. Anyone got a lead?

I would just keep an eye on the classifieds for a complete box - they pop up fairly frequently and are usually pretty cheap. It could also be an opportunity to change to a IIA box, which some (myself included) prefer. There is one on ebay now, but it is a '65 and I am not sure what suffix box that is. If you were to go the IIA route, the suffix D and later are stronger. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1965-Land-Rover-series-11a-Transmission_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4a9e0fd26b QQitemZ320479416939QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPar tsQ5fAccessories

rwollschlager

01-26-2010, 09:30 PM

What are the advantages/differences of the IIA gearboxes other than no sychro's in 1st and 2nd??

-Rob

scott

01-26-2010, 11:33 PM

Apis Mellifera

01-27-2010, 04:44 PM

What are the advantages/differences of the IIA gearboxes other than no sychro's in 1st and 2nd??

-Rob

Mainly clutch actuation. The chassis may differ because of this too.

SIIa
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v307/dandomatic2/Land_Rover/Picture127.jpg

SIII
http://www.lrseries.com/resources/user/d11cd52c208d726c4edfd9790dfb839023a0d559/RTC2705-SERIES-3-GEARBOX-ASSY-COMPLETE.jpg

NickDawson

01-27-2010, 05:18 PM

Thanks again all!
I followed Scott's advice and called RDS - they were great. They have an "emergency kit" for $100 - final drive gear, end cap, gaskets, the works. Easy fix.

May also mail them my OD for a quote. For $700 it might be worth referbing... maybe. (I hope my wife doesn't read this)

NickDawson

02-02-2010, 05:25 PM

I DID IT! and in no small way thanks to this group, the help was invaluable!

I got the kit from RDS yesterday and took some time tonight to work on things. The gear slid right in, the washer and dog went on (use the chisel method, inelegant but it worked) and threw on the back plate... then realized that I forgot the gasket, un-did all the bolts, put the gasket on and reapplied the back plate.

Its driving great (well, minus that rear shock I'm still missing)... in fact, the slap that a mechanic has previously diagnosed as a failing differential is gone - wonder if that was the gears in the OD failing?

The only challenge I ran into was with the locking washer. I could not get the dog to line up with one of the tabs to bend it down - how bad is that? I need to do a full flush and transmission oil change. Thinking I'll get the tool from RN to tighten the dog and try again then.

Thanks again gang - this board saves my bacon every time!

Now...on to that broken shock, or the broken brake booster....or installing the winch... or new headlights...or finally repainting the roof....or........

rwollschlager

02-02-2010, 05:33 PM

Now...on to that broken shock, or the broken brake booster....or installing the winch... or new headlights...or finally repainting the roof....or........

or just savor the moment that your truck is working :thumb-up: then do the brake booster first.

SafeAirOne

02-02-2010, 11:53 PM

The only challenge I ran into was with the locking washer. I could not get the dog to line up with one of the tabs to bend it down - how bad is that?

First off, glad to hear that you're mobile again, and for not too much cash to boot!

Now for that spline nut...You definitely want that nut to be 1) tight and 2) positively locked with the locking tab, ensuring that it won't loosen.

Unbeknownst to me, my locking washer had the forward-pointing tabs break off, though the tabs folded down onto the nut were still intact. The nut backed off, causing the transmission to jump out of gear while engine-braking. The next day, as I was backing out of my driveway the nut backed off as far as it could go, until it jammed into that cover plate you just installed, immobilizing my rover halfway out in the street.