Problem with door hinges and the bulkhead!

[Dashface]

So, today one of my doors basically just fell off. Turns out the threaded insert in the bulkhead that the hinges attach to has rusted and I guess is stripped now. Does anyone have any ideas how to solve this? Is there a better way to attach the hinges? Are there replacements for that part of the bulkhead? Anything?

Thanks guys!

[SafeAirOne]

So, today one of my doors basically just fell off. Turns out the threaded insert in the bulkhead that the hinges attach to has rusted and I guess is stripped now. Does anyone have any ideas how to solve this? Is there a better way to attach the hinges? Are there replacements for that part of the bulkhead? Anything?

Thanks guys!


The hinges are just held on with captive nuts on my SIII (see item 24 here (http://www.roversnorth.com/store/c-91-doors-hinges-locks-latches.aspx)). As for replacement parts for the bulkhead, see item #4 here (http://www.roversnorth.com/store/c-78-footwells-door-posts-rails.aspx):


http://www.roversnorth.com/store/images/product/large/LR-page43.1.jpg

[brucejohn]

Our hosts have a kit comprised of Land Rover's design for hinges and bolts of a "new, non-corrosive alloy", too. Part number RNK 8060.

[Dashface]

Thanks for the tips guys - do I have to remove the bulkhead to replace this section? And what do I do, cut it out?

[brucejohn]

Why not post a picture or two before talking too much about cutting things out. Are all you trying to do is replace the captive nuts or is there more rust damage to the bulkhead you are concerned about too?

[SafeAirOne]

Why not post a picture or two before talking too much about cutting things out. Are all you trying to do is replace the captive nuts or is there more rust damage to the bulkhead you are concerned about too?


I was thinking the same thing. You don't need to replace the door support just because the captive nuts are stripped out.

[Dashface]

I was thinking the same thing. You don't need to replace the door support just because the captive nuts are stripped out.


You guys are probably all correct. I mean, the whole area is pretty shot (I get the feeling this is common), but I could maybe get away with replacing just the nuts... Until I went out to take the picture I thought the rust was more widespread than it is for some reason. Just assuming the worst I guess.

Here is a pic:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a210/Hobbie_42/grumblespillarone.jpg

So - if I can just replace the nuts, can anyone tell me how? How do I access them? As well - could someone point me towards where to get the right bits that I'll need?

Thanks tons for all the help!

[SafeAirOne]

Well, let me say that your doorpost is shot. If the top looks like that, the bottom is probably worse. :(

As for the captive nuts being replacable, I had the SIII doorposts in mind (and I think brucejohn probably did too). You obviously don't have a SIII, so I'm not sure that your captive nuts are easily replaced. Probably a dozen pre-SIII owners that can chime in with good info here.

[thixon]

Hi Dashface,

Interesting problem you have there. From the photo, it looks like the plate that the hinge bolts thread into is still in place behind the doorpost. Is that right? You could try to install a helicoils for the time being. Either way, you have some obvious rust issues with the bulkhead. How's the rest of it?

Are you after a quick fix, or do you want to tear the truck down and rework the entire bulkhead? Send more photos of what that door post looks like down low. The quick fix would be to just cut out the rusty area and weld in new metal. Based on the photo it wouldn't be all that challenging. Trouble is, you probably have issues elsewhere.

[brucejohn]

I agree from my experience trying to chase that rust for a patch will be a challenge. I would begin planning to do a more extensive replacement and refurbishment of the bulkhead. If this were my running rig I would use Travis' suggestion for a quick fix while planning my long term fix.

Also, yes I have a series III and should not have assumed.

Keep us posted with more pictures, there are those here with way more experience and great suggestions. I have been successful at doing way more than I would have imagined because of the help I have received here.

[Dashface]

I will go and take some more pictures of the bottom of the post, though it doesn't look so bad.

Are there any other parts that you guys need to see on the bulkhead to know if the whole thing is shot?

Thing is, I don't have the money or facilities to replace the entire bulkhead, so posts might be the way to go. It figures that the only parts of Rovers that rust are the important bits (ie, the door posts, window tops, frame, etc), since everything else is just fine.

Thanks for all the help - I like the suggestion of the Helicoils, but if I can just cut out the post and have a new one welded in I will have that done. Any more info is great, and I'll get some pics of the bottom of the post up asap!

[thixon]

Dashface,

Based on what I see in the photos, welding in new metal there wouldn't be dificult. Replacing the whole door post is also no sweat. You have rust higher than the door post repair piece goes IIRC.

Where are you located? If you're anywhere near GA, you can bring it by one weekend, and I'd be glad to help you out.

[Dashface]

Yeah, the rest of the door post doesn't look too bad really. Here's the whole post:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a210/Hobbie_42/wholepost.jpg

If I were just to replace where the nuts are, how would I do it? Is there a piece available, or would I just weld in a sheet of metal with whatever nuts I want attached to it? I can't for the life of me see how to get at the nuts - would I cut in from the front? Here's a pic of the inside, and there's obviously no way in that way:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a210/Hobbie_42/insideofpost.jpg

[SafeAirOne]

I'd be willing to bet that if you poke around under the lower hinge, you'd find the same corrosion down there.

These patches are sold by our hosts for $40 and make a good band-aid fix that'll likely get you by for 5 more years...

http://www.roversnorth.com/store/images/Product/large/CHAS36.JPG

[Dashface]

Thanks for all the info guys! I've never dealt with any body work on any car before, so it's a bit terrifying.

If I'm going to put that top patch in, would I be well served to just go right ahead and do the whole post too do you figure?

Also - does that top patch come with the captive nuts built in, or do you just weld some on there?

[brucejohn]

I think Travis and SafeAirOne have the best idea. I just went out and looked at a IIa bulkhead I have out back and cutting out and adding the repair piece looks challenging but doable. I doubt the captive nuts come with it.

Call our hosts and ask about the taller door post piece (even though the link at their store doesn't work) which is available from other sources, the upper corner piece and the captive nuts. I mention the taller door piece becauase I think it includes the upper hinge point and the curve like the original posts appears too. Then you can decide what you think is best.

The pictures of Travis' work are really nice, if you are close, that was a generous offer.

Keep us posted on your progress.

[Dashface]

Yeah, it's looking like I may have to just do the whole thing. I'll call up our hosts tomorrow when they're open again and see about the tall posts - as you point out, Brucejohn, the website is gibbled there so I can't see what they're like. If they're tall enough to make it a one-piece solution then that's obviously the way to go.

I wish I could get Travis' help, but unfortunately I'm a long way away - up where a huge number of these NADAs went originally; Canada :D So, I'll be stuck with finding some local help.

[SafeAirOne]

If I'm going to put that top patch in, would I be well served to just go right ahead and do the whole post too do you figure?

Also - does that top patch come with the captive nuts built in, or do you just weld some on there?

The doorpost is much more involved that the patch. That patch is just a piece of sheet metal cut out and bent up. You just weld it over the existing area. The patch does nothing to solve your hinge anchor issue. Honestly, I'm not sure what holds your anchors in. Probably spot welds. Somebody with a Series IIa and below who has had their bulkhead apart can probably tell you if and how those anchor nuts can be accessed.

I'm only familiar with the SIII, and it shows. Not sure what a SII bulkhead looks like, but can you access anything from the engine bay behind here?:


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4004/4384011654_c76aa15b37_o.jpg

[SafeAirOne]

I mention the taller door piece becauase I think it includes the upper hinge point and the curve like the original posts appears too.

The taller post includes the upper hinge captive nut slots (but not the captive nuts themselves). It comes in 2 pieces (the upright and the "foot" , where it mounts to the chassis outrigger).

EDIT: Also be careful with the doorpost replacement--it is a VERY slippery slope, because as soon as you open everything up to access the doorpost, you find all sorts of other corrosion. You have to be prepared to deal with what you find:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4384036234_36b9a0449f_o.jpg

[brucejohn]

...but can you access anything from the engine bay behind here?:


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4004/4384011654_c76aa15b37_o.jpg

I forgot to add that to my last. No there is a another post that comes down from above that terminate about even with your arrow. The captive nuts in my iia bulkhead are two tapped holes in a piece of bar steel that must sit in a pocket. The pocket retains the bar while allowing wiggle to adjust the doors at the hinge attachment.

I would probably try coming in through that rusted out hole first.

[thixon]

Dashface,

The photos don't look bad, but its on it way there. First, Its fixable and won't be a challenge for someone with the skills to weld in new metal, so don't get all worked up over this. Second, if you don't want to do the work yourself, then check around your area and look for someone who's done restoration work. They don't have to have experience with rovers. The guy that taught me to do all this could fix that in his sleep, and he's never touched a rover. My only word of warning is that you need to be careful on the pricing. Some shops will rip you.

Even better, try to find a "hobbyist" like me, or some guy known in your area that's done some restorations. In my experience, the work tends to be better than a lot of pro shops out there. I'm sure I'll get some feedback from the board on that comment!

For example, I have a Triumph in my garage right now that has similar issues to your truck on the trunk lid, two of the fenders, and it needs new floor pans. The guy is paying me 5 grand to fix the rust (felt bad taking that much), prime the whole car, and hang and align the body (basically get it ready for the paint guy). The "professional shop" he took the car to first wanted 12 grand for the same work. He let them start, and three or four months in got tired of waiting. He had to pay 3 grand to get the car back. All the shop had done was dissasemble and bead blast the car, tack weld in the floor pans (poorly I might add), and try to fix one of the rusty fender bottoms.

[Dashface]

Thanks for all the help everyone - I'm very impressed.

I called our hosts today and was told rather shortly that they do not have any door post bits for Series II trucks at this time. I am a little sad that the appropriate peices aren't available anymore.

I think I'm just going to have a local shop cut out around the captive nuts and weld in a new plate with new nuts welded to that. There should be enough metal here and there to anchor it.

Thixon, I know what you mean about shop costs for body work. I haven't bothered to bring my MG in anywhere because I don't want to know how much they'll ask. Then again, grinding out some bubbles is a bit different than fabricating a chunk of metal.

An old friend's boyfriend does work at an aluminum fabricating shop though... Maybe I should get him to rig me up some new bits :D

[daveb]

there is really nothing unique about doorposts between SII and SIII, they are the same. If you get the RN repair piece that covers the upper corner, it has a square hole in between the two round holes. there are new-style captive nuts that slip in and clip onto the edge of the square hole. the nut portion of it is then visible through the round hole. that patch piece will also cover the are where you have rust penetration.

disregard the comments by another poster saying those patch pieces are only a temporary fix and that they just go on top of the old metal. that is 100% incorrect, you must cut away all the corroded metal and then weld in new. the bottom of the doorpost underneath the lower hinge looks like it has been filled with bondo. that needs to be removed and a patch of 18 or 29 gauge metal properly welded in. you may find that the foot of the bulkhead that mounts to the chssis outrugger is going to, that is a more involved repair but some cleaning, paint and waxoyl should help if it isn't too far gone yet.

these repairs done properly should last as long as the rest of the bulkhead as long as proper corrosion protection measures are taken during and after the work, and over the life of the car.

there is good information here but do your own research and don't believe everything you read on the internet.

[Dashface]

Thanks for the info, Daveb. I was kind of figuring I could get by with the corner replacement patches from our hosts. I think I may give that a try - apparently I could then use the correct captive nuts, etc...

...Of course, I don't know which ones those are, but I'll try and sort it out.

[SafeAirOne]

...disregard the comments by another poster saying those patch pieces are only a temporary fix and that they just go on top of the old metal. that is 100% incorrect, you must cut away all the corroded metal and then weld in new...


Are you saying that the pictured piece doesn't just fit over the old, lousy bulkhead piece and get welded over it as a patch? I suppose I could be 100% incorrect on that...The 2 things compelling me to call it a weld-over patch is:

1) That's the way a PO did it on mine (of course we all know about previous owners...) and

2) The doorpost metal is much thicker than the corner patch (at least the patch that the PO used on mine). Maybe the corner patches RN sells are really thick ones??

If you cut away the doorpost where the upper hinge holes are and replace it with this metal patch, I don't think there will be enough rigidity/structure. As I recall, the replacement doorpost is much thicker than the surrounding sheet steel and is stamped in an L or a C-channel shape, making it very rigid in the area of the uppper hinge. Please note that these are just my observations from the bulkhead restoration I completed a couple years ago. I had much more corrosion than the RN corner patch would cover, so I ended up fabricating the entire upper corners of my bulkhead and the vent seal channels from scratch and used the tall doorpost replacements from RN. I've never examined the RN corner replacements personally, but am going by the similar patches that were attached to my bulkhead by the PO.

Now the doorpost is definitely a remove-and-replace item.
http://www.roversnorth.com/store/images/Product/large/CHAS36.JPG

[daveb]

Mark

In my experience bulkheads are mostly 18 or 19 gauge metal. Not the thickest material. The strength in that area comes from the shape not from the thickness of the metal. Adding metal over a rusted area does nothing for longevity and the added strength will soon be lost as the cancer in the metal underneath continues to spread. Best to cut out all the rust and weld in a new patch. Properly done it should have all the strength of the original. Have seen, in fact I own one, several bulkheads where the repair was done as you describe. This causes problems with fitting the captive nuts over the multiple layers of metal and just makes a proper repair more difficult down the road as now the new patch has to be cut away as well necessitating more extensive repairs than that originally required. Less work to do it right the first time...a lesson I repeatedly teach myself :)