wont idle without choke

[NickDawson]

I'm back at it...
So for a while I've had this problem, but had been more focused on other things. Wander's recent thread about a gas smell in the cabin prompted me to dig a little deeper into my own issues.

I started with the timing gun this morning, boy was that sucker out of time. I pulled up some old notes that Jeff A had been kind enough to write and found this:

If it's not, then stop the car and loosen the distributor clamp nut somewhat, leaving enough tension so it's not moving on its own. Start the car again and slowly turn the distributor; with the strobe light on you'll see that the light hits the pointer/notch more exactly. Once they are lined up properly, then tighten the clamp bolt and you're all set.

My 2.5L has 5 or 6 marks with a 6 Degree mark on the left most mark. I set it smack in the middle

when I gave it some gas, it popped a few times, then backfired badly and died. So I move it to the 6 degree mark, popped and gurgled more with gas... so I went to the far right which was not much better either... so I settled on the middle.

It sounds much better at idle now, but still requires some choke, even when hot. It also pops (unburnt fuel in the exhaust?) when I let off the gas.

The hesitation at full throttle is better, but still present.

Any thoughts? With a little choke, and me ignoring unburnt fuel pops, it does seem to be running better now...

(for the record, I'm close to blaming the seafoam)

[griswald]

Nick,
I am no expert, but I would check and gap your points, and replace the condensor...

Good luck
Griswald

[daveb]

check all the jets are clear and correctly seated. not going to tell you how to do that though, RTFM

[Wander]

Sounds like you on the path Nick. You mentioned prior that you might have crud in your tank and filter. I would get the fuel flow sorted, check and/or replace the air filter and intake and check the plugs and wires. You may have already gone this route. It sounds like the timing adjustments aren't quite settling the idle problems so make sure the air/fuel/spark is solid and then go to the jets in the carb. In the "which carb" thread is was mentioned that the Weber is often under jetted which would fit with your issues (too restrictive).

Good Luck!

[daveb]

Don't ever touch the carb until you've made sure timing accurate, gap/dwell within tolerance, and valves adjusted. then begin to address the air/fuel intake and then and only then adjust the carb.

pulling and checking jets is easy, and the weber/lean connection is for the 34ICH as fitted to series trucks. This is a different- it's the 2barrel as fitted to early 90/110 2.25 and 2.5 petrol engines. google search on the spec of the carb will turn up good info. 32/34 DMTL or something like that. not to be confused with the DGV series, totally different carb.


Sounds like you on the path Nick. You mentioned prior that you might have crud in your tank and filter. I would get the fuel flow sorted, check and/or replace the air filter and intake and check the plugs and wires. You may have already gone this route. It sounds like the timing adjustments aren't quite settling the idle problems so make sure the air/fuel/spark is solid and then go to the jets in the carb. In the "which carb" thread is was mentioned that the Weber is often under jetted which would fit with your issues (too restrictive).

Good Luck!

[NickDawson]

Thanks all - I did some work today and thought I'd made progress...I'm not sure that is the case, but I think I've found a/the problem.

First I checked the gap on the points as per the WSM - they were a little narrow so I opened them up to 38mm - which seemed to help the putter when I left off the gas... although after a test ride around town, I'm not sure it helped that much.

The fuel lines are clear, I feel good about delivery.

Since it was the cause of much angst before, and against Daveb's good advice, I checked the carb, the cut off solenoid to be exact. I pulled it and it seems its natural state is to be extended. I tried connecting it directly to the batter and it would not retract. Is that a valid enough test to determine that it is in fact broken?

[Nium]

Hope you mis-typed Nick
Point gap should be between 0.014" - 0.016" which would be 0.3556mm - 0.4064mm so setting to 38mm would be way out of adjustment but if ya meant 0.38mm that shouldn't be too bad. After readjusting point gap reset timing as it will have changed with new gap setting.

Cheers

[NickDawson]

Hope you mis-typed Nick
Point gap should be between 0.014" - 0.016" which would be 0.3556mm - 0.4064mm so setting to 38mm would be way out of adjustment but if ya meant 0.38mm that shouldn't be too bad. After readjusting point gap reset timing as it will have changed with new gap setting.

Cheers

Thanks Nium - you are absolutely correct, I mis-typed. Yeah, not sure I could get the points to 38mm wide! I used the 0.015" feeler gauge since it was right between the WSM's suggested 0.014" - 0.016".

I did reset the timing to the middle notch, that's where I had the best luck before. The manual says to adjust according to fuel quality but doesn't get more specific than that.

[NickDawson]

I love my truck...I love my truck...I love my truck...

So I went to drive it yesterday and it won't start...
It will putter and almost catch with the accelerator floored, but as soon as I let off the starter motor it dies.

I'm fairly sure I have spark, I'm sure I have fuel pressure up to the carb (in fact, when I pull the hose off there is a lot of pressure built up)...and I know its never the carb, but I think this time it might be the carb

I looked down the barrels and pumped the throttle, normally I think I can see gas squirting in, this time I see nothing. So I pulled the jets. This one, below, in particular is badly clogged. In fact, shouldn't I be able to thread something all the way through it? As you can see by this picture, I can only get that pen in about 1/2 of an inch. Whatever is in there is not budging.

If I had sediment that made it past the filters and got stuck in the jets, that would explain the poor idle and now not starting, right?

Also, and DaveB is going to love me asking this question, how do I identify which Weber it is?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/4589227782_84ef579b7e.jpg

[daveb]

Dude, you need to get your hands on some basic auto mechanics textbooks from the mid seventies or so, and read them cover to cover. NEVER stick a pin or a wire into a passage or jet on a carb for any reason. You will most likely ruin it. The jet in your picture is a main jet attached to an emulsion tube. It should slide off the tube. I've used carb cleaner and thick monofilament to poke jets through.

Since you don't want to do ANY research or learning on your own, rather you prefer to take up the time of others, it is frustrating and annoying to help you. You don't take a morsel of information that you are given and use it as a basis for exploration and further learning. Rather, you just plunder ahead until you fock something up and then come back and repeat the same basic question. I already told you what carb you had but your head was too far up your tailpipe to notice.

A while back I asked you for your engine number and you still have yet to provide that. Do you own a manual for this car? Have you opened it? Do you know what engine you have and what vehicle it came out of, and do you own the manual for that car?

Here, maybe this will help you.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2360824/Weber-DMTL-3234

[Wander]

Dude, you need to get your hands on some basic auto mechanics textbooks from the mid seventies or so, and read them cover to cover. NEVER stick a pin or a wire into a passage or jet on a carb for any reason. You will most likely ruin it. The jet in your picture is a main jet attached to an emulsion tube. It should slide off the tube. I've used carb cleaner and thick monofilament to poke jets through.

Since you don't want to do ANY research or learning on your own, rather you prefer to take up the time of others, it is frustrating and annoying to help you. You don't take a morsel of information that you are given and use it as a basis for exploration and further learning. Rather, you just plunder ahead until you fock something up and then come back and repeat the same basic question. I already told you what carb you had but your head was too far up your tailpipe to notice.



A while back I asked you for your engine number and you still have yet to provide that. Do you own a manual for this car? Have you opened it? Do you know what engine you have and what vehicle it came out of, and do you own the manual for that car?

Here, maybe this will help you.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2360824/Weber-DMTL-3234

Wow, nice way to help someone.......:nono:
So what if he's asking questions, isn't that why we're all here??? If you don't want to answer his question, move on to another thread, it's nothing to get that upset over. We all start at square one so let's help eachother not tear each other down.

[daveb]

Matt

I'm sure your reply makes sense from your perspective. I don't know you so I can't really say for sure. There are lots of people on here who like to spend time looking through the threads and helping where we can. I do get an enormous sense of satisfaction from solving problems and learning by listening and doing. When someone gives me a piece of information I try to use that information as a springboard to solve my problem. I will (and always do) exhaust every resource available to me before burdening the group or individual with another question that I could easily answer myself.

I am not going to skip threads and one person's post just because they are ignoring basic ettiquette of the teacher/student relationship. (and face it, if you are online posting questions to a public forum, you are a student-we all are from one time to another) I do want to help. But I want to help people like Nick learn to become self sufficient in their travels and not have to rely on a web forum for others to do the work for them. I think it will help them enjoy their Land Rovers more, and keep them for longer instead of getting frustrated and moving onto the next thing.

So, sorry if it offends your sense of what is polite. Nick didn't come here for people to be polite to him, he came here looking for advice to help make his Land Rover run better. He keeps coming back with questions that he might not have to even ask if he would crack a textbook or even consult google from time to time. He has not completed homework assignments he has been given and by these ommissions has earned the barbs.

So far I have yet to see anyone chime in and really offer much in the way of useful advice in this thread, so I am going to keep trying to help, as it is my thoughtful and giving nature to do. After all, I get help from the experts when I humbly ask for it, and he should too. But the difference is that I pay it back to the community by helping others and sharing the information I have learned in the process. And not burdeing others with too many simple questions that could be easily answered elsewhere. Maybe that is just my upbringing. There seems to ber a number of people out there that think you can maintain or restore a Land Rover just by asking every single question to a panel of people on a forum or mailing list somewhere. But if you don't learn to distill that information and use ti to gain real knowledge, you will never learn anything and ultimately you will fail and be disappointed.

In that vein, I don't think mine is an unreasonable position to take. Well... already more than enough time spent answering this comment. Hope that helps.

Nick, hows it going? Get that engine number yet? Find the manual in english? LOL...



Wow, nice way to help someone.......:nono:
So what if he's asking questions, isn't that why we're all here??? If you don't want to answer his question, move on to another thread, it's nothing to get that upset over. We all start at square one so let's help eachother not tear each other down.

[Les Parker]

Well, calm down folks, please !!

Nick, please post a pic. of the carb. you are working on.
From skimming through the posting thus far, a 2 barrel Weber seems favourite.
There should be a brass tag on one of the float bowl screws. That data would be useful.

Looking forward to some pix/data ,

[Nium]

If the emulsion tubes and jets are clogged then a soak in a heavy duty carb clean will clear them up. At the local auto parts look for what looks like a 5 gallon metal paint can, that's the stuff. It will probably say something about being a cleaner for carbs too. I forget the name of the stuff. A convenient dipping basket is supplied with it too. Just don't soak parts for to long (overnight) as it can ruin any special finishs on carb parts like on the float bowl.

Regards

[bmohan55]

Last time I priced that can of carb cleaner at NAPA it was $55!!!!!!! Kerosene is "almost" as good. If you don't have a compresser to blow out the carb get a couple cans of compressed air used on circurt boards. Luckily the mechanics here at work warned me about poking wires thru the carb in an attempt to clean it, or I'd had done the same thing.

[daveb]

In my experience, carbs do not get gummed up to the point where they need the magic carb cleaner unless they are sitting unused and full of gas for years. I've taken apart and rebuilt dozens of carbs and I just haven't seen it. I've owned two of the type that Nick has and the biggest problem seems to be the jets coming unscrewed and the choke vacuum tube cracking or popping off. Oh, and leaking from the throttle shaft after you turn off the engine. The upper solenoid is supposed to open an air passge to the float bowl to bleed off the pressure of the expanding fuel in the float bowl but it doesn't really seem to work.

[kevkon]

I believe Nick said that there was no fuel coming from the accelerator nozzle and there was built up fule pressure at the inlet line. That pretty much is indicative of a clogged inlet filter or float needle assembly.

[daveb]

mis read that the first time though it said you were getting fuel.

check or change the accelerator pump diaphragm.




normally I think I can see gas squirting in, this time I see nothing.

[NickDawson]

Thanks all! As always, I'm immeasurably appreciative of the help and advice - in addition to the other folks I'm talking to, things I'm reading, research, etc, this really is a great community! I'm sure I'm going to make mistakes along the way that cost me time and/or money...and a lot of frustration...but in the end, I am learning a lot and that was one of my goals (gotta keep reminding myself of that).

I've not forgotten about two important requests - engine number and carb pics (including data off the tag on the side). I've been putting in some late hours and was out of town over the weekend. I'll post that soon.

According to my (English version) of the WSM, DaveB is right - Weber 32/34 DMTL

I know the big can of carb clearer Nium is talking about - based on these comments is it fair to assume that the emulsion tube and that main jet should be clear all the way through? If that's the case, its probably worth the $20-$60 to order new jets (consider what I did with that pen and some gentle tapping).

I'm also going to research a local carburetor repair shop - see what options I have. There's something to be said about having a professional ensuring its in working order so I know where I'm starting next time.

I still don't trust the two solenoids - neither seems to be functioning...for what that's worth.

Thanks again all! I'll keep this thread updated as I poke along.

[scott]

ya said ya had it apart recently. could you have screwed up the float setting? easy to do since adjustments are made by just bending the little ****. if the float is bent too low then it'll be shuting off to soon. i've a 32/36 dgv, don't know how different they are

[NickDawson]

ya said ya had it apart recently. could you have screwed up the float setting? easy to do since adjustments are made by just bending the little ****. if the float is bent too low then it'll be shuting off to soon. i've a 32/36 dgv, don't know how different they are

I didn't have it truly apart - just took off the pan air filter so I could get to the jets and look into the bowel. But....that doesn't mean I didn't screw it up :D

I'm going to guess that I didn't since the symptoms are completely unchanged since it stopped running which happened before I did my investigation.

[daveb]

According to my (English version) of the WSM, DaveB is right - Weber 32/34 DMTL



No kidding?



I know the big can of carb clearer Nium is talking about - based on these comments is it fair to assume that the emulsion tube and that main jet should be clear all the way through?


No.




If that's the case, its probably worth the $20-$60 to order new jets (consider what I did with that pen and some gentle tapping).


Save your money. Once you finish reading all of my posts, you will see that I told you how to deal with this.




I'm also going to research a local carburetor repair shop - see what options I have. There's something to be said about having a professional ensuring its in working order so I know where I'm starting next time.


Good luck, last production year for carb'ed vehicles in the USA was 1987.



I still don't trust the two solenoids- neither seems to be functioning...for what that's worth.


Upper solenoid pointing to the front of the car should be closed while running. It is a vent that should be open when the car is off.

The lower solenoid pointing toward the left side of the car is the fuel cutoff. The vehicle will not run without it working. With the ignition on, after confirming that you have 12v at the spade terminal on the solenoid, remove the terminal and replace it while you are holding the solnoid in your other hand. You should feel it click. If it doesn't click, use a test light to make sure there is sufficient grounding through the carb body.



Thanks again all! I'll keep this thread updated as I poke along.

Read what I have posted, don't just skim. Try to pay attention to the details and proceed in an orderly, logical fashion, not jumping around from one theory to the next. For example, if you don't trust the solenoids, test them...don't just talk about it...

[NickDawson]

Interesting - I'm making progress, I think, and learning a whole lot about troubleshooting.

I re-read this thread a few times and tried Daveb's suggestion to test the fuel shutoff solenoid - it was not getting power. So I wired it straight to the battery and got a reassuring click.

Tracing it back, it was not getting juiced from the relay it was connected to which is not getting juice from the 2nd fuse under the steering column. I still can't figure out which of the two leads coming in is the hot one, both have continuity to something + but not much voltage - IE something's grounding out?

Even when I supplied a clean 12V to that circuit, it still wouldn't catch....

Thats when I read Coltphan's post here:
http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9466

which lead me back to this page I'd read a while ago (re: ignition system troubleshooting):
http://www.custompistols.com/cars/articles/ignition.htm

which led me to test the points and coil - the coil was sitting at 150F with only about 2.5V coming out on the side of the dizzy.

I bought that coil new a few months ago - Ironically when I was troubleshooting an issue that was in fact the fuel shutoff solenoid. So I swapped for the old one and after a few cranks it choked to life, but won't stay running... presumably b/c of, once again, the fuel shutoff solenoid.

So, at the risk of belaboring this tread, I'm hoping someone would be kind enough to either A) provide some validation that I'm on the right track and/or B) apply their expertise to the whole problem at large - it strikes me as related that I've got voltage problems feeding the solenoid on the carb, and I've had this same issue before and the coil is burnt out (been told they rarely if ever go bad)... seems like a short somewhere to me...thoughts?

[kevkon]

Nick, I'm not sure that I have a good understanding of your situation but it seems to me that you have had a lot of electrical related problems with your truck. It could be coincidence, but often that can be symptomatic of a hacked up wiring/ electrical system. The stock system is really pretty simple, but when it has been modified,damaged, badly repaired, and fitted with incorrect components all sorts of troubles can and will arise. Is this the case with your Series? I mean has the PO changed or altered the stock electrical system for some reason?

[NickDawson]

Kevkon - not sure I'd know what a standard wiring setup would look like, but my suspicion is that its fairly hacked together. I'm warming to the idea of buying a new wiring harness and replacing it, but would love to make that a winter project if I can put it off.

latest:
Got it running on saturday, maybe enough cranking and puttering got it warm enough?
Ran really well on the top end, but with the tiniest bit of throttle it, ie first 1/4 press of the pedal it struggles and I get some black smoke out of the tail pipe. Its nice to not have the hesitation on the top end any more.

I used the timing like and tried it dead center on the mark and then on the marks on either side, not much change in that symptom.

Went to drive it the next day when it was truly cold - started but only with full throttle and then required me to keep it at full throttle while it choked and glugged for 3 minutes coughing smoke to warm up. Shorting the relay that opens the solenoid on the carb helps, but only marginally.

I'm at the point of understanding the advice I was given during my search about finding someone local who knows what they are doing. I feel like I'm so close on a couple of issues, but without that consultation I'm not quite getting there....books and research are helping a lot, but hard to put theory into practical space without someone saying "yep, thats right".


Anyway, I feel good about where I am, but would love to hear any thoughts about dialing it in and getting it to start more smoothly.

[kevkon]

Nick, I don't necessarily mean a stock wiring harness, just one that hasn't been cut up and filled with potentially bad splices. The Series has a limited fuse block and simple wiring, Unfortunately, over time it's common for po's to add devices and circuits and to do so in the easiest manner.

It's hard to diagnose remotely, but it sounds to me like there's a possibility that you are not getting any advance on your timing.

[NickDawson]

It's hard to diagnose remotely, but it sounds to me like there's a possibility that you are not getting any advance on your timing.

Wife just informed me that we are buying a kegorator (I know, she's a keeper) - anyone want to come to Virginia? hint hint

thanks Kevkon, I intend to do some serious electrical unraveling in the near future, I'll keep this group posted.

I'll also explore the advance, although I was under the impression that only kicked in a higher RPMs?

[NickDawson]

Its starting now, but not running well... lot of black smoke at low RPMs (1/4 throttle)


(and since I can't get the youtube feature to ever work, here's the raw link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28e8XhafCbA )
I checked the gap on the points again and tried micro adjustments through the acceptable range listed in the workshop manual...no difference. I also checked to make sure the low tension lead wasnt rubbing and grounding somewhere - seemed fine.


I have it timed right on the center notch, but also tried advancing and retarding it across the scale - not much difference in RPMs or performance.

checked for spark on each plug, seems solid, but the plugs are pretty fouled (not sure if that is a cause or effect)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4630511742_9091a38527.jpg

In what was probably an unrelated diagnostic, I checked the compression - all good.

Think I'm going to breakdown and take it in to my local shop this week... anyone have any thoughts before then?

[bkreutz]

The black smoke and the appearance of your plugs both indicate an over rich condition. First thing I would check is the float level in the carb (and if the needle valve is shutting off the fuel when the bowl gets full).

[kevkon]

Nick, did you rebuild this carb?

[NickDawson]

Nick, did you rebuild this carb?

No, the furthest I've ever gotten into it is removing the jets and blowing them out. Earlier in this thread you'll see my attempt to ream the main jet out, which may very well be the root cause of the current issues.

Its running more smoothly today, but still not well

I'm proud of how far I've gotten on my own, but think I'm going to take it in to a shop tomorrow.....and/or.... call these folks http://www.piercemanifolds.com

Of course I keep saying I'm going to do that and then I start tinkering again and get closer still. Im learning a lot sitting out there with books and manuals, seeing what does what...

[kevkon]

Good for you Nick, sometimes we all have to learn the hard way.
It may be that a fuel circuit in the carb is blocked, you might want to get another ( new 0r rebuilt ) carb. Not too many mechanics today are good with carbs and even if they are the labor bill will probably be more than a carb. You might also get a carb re-build kit in addition and learn the workings of the mysterios beast. Then you will have the knowledge and a spare on hand.

[NickDawson]

Seriously, thought this thread was behind me :/

Strange symptoms - the truck randomly began running fine. And then sometimes it wont. And then its fine again....

When it first starts, it bucks a fair amount, almost like fuel starvation...but pretty soon, sooner if I back off the throttle, it smooths out. The random part is that I can drive all over time and sometimes it is bucky and sometimes not...totally depends. I'll be in 4th doing 45 and it starts bucking, I back off the throttle a bit and it smooths out and boom, I can punch it and it runs fine for a while.

Hills, both declines and inclines have no bearing. Neither does engine temp.

When it bucks, it also backfires or gurgles a bit. The timing is good, according to the light, may benefit from a fine tune, but not too far out of whack. The points are in good shape and gaped well. I've sorted out my grounded positive lead to the carb's fuel shut off solenoid (fixed the dieseling at shutoff too).

So - I have positive fuel pressure at idle, but how would I know during running conditions? I think it is either the jets in the carb (which would be my doing when I was troubleshooting the early on in this thread)....or it is the ignition - seems unlikely since I have consistent spark, good points, good voltages, etc

I've learned more this go round than any other time (and you all know there have been many :D )- a lot of it due to the encouragement to really study the systems and read more - thanks gang!

I feel like I'm close to solving this one... and on the verge of buying a pentronix and some new jets and maybe an electric fuel pump...but given my druthers, I'd like to know what exactly is wrong and stage those purchases appropriately.

Any more trouble shooting tips?

[bkreutz]

If you've still got a conventional ignition in it, and an old condenser lying around, try throwing the condenser in and see what happens. The reason I mention this is that I've had failing condensers give me fits over the years, I had one with almost the exact symptoms you described, went through the carbs a couple of times, replaced the fuel pump, nothing changed. Then on a whim (or desperation) I changed the condenser and the problem went away. This happened a long time ago (1972) and I've run into this a few times since then, but I always remembered the first one so when I get a bunch of strange symptoms that don't make sense, I change the condenser. Might be worth a shot.

[bmohan55]

From what I've read here and other places and in talking with mechanics the quality of condensers now a days are "spotty" to day the least. I'm starting my engine rebuild this weekend (with help from a friend) and will be putting in a pertronix because of this fact.

Nick, I have an old condenser from a 25d (never gave me problems) and an unused back-up laying around if you want to try them...if they will work in a 45d?

[daveb]

is the fuel system clean and the filter clear? you could be getting blockages in the fuel pickup though in my experience those are not intermittent, once you are blocked you stay blocked.

could be a sticking float or float valve too. when you are on the gas pedal you are draining the float bowl more quickly, letting off would allow it to refill. lower float level means leaner running. have you checked the float setting? If you do that it would not hurt to change the needle in the float bowl valve while you are at it.

[NickDawson]

Great news! I swapped out the condenser for one I had wiht an older (but good) set of points - its running like a top!!!

Knock on wood that it keeps running for a while ;)

This thread has been a real evolution for me in troubleshooting and fixing. Got the carb solenoid sorted out, detected and replaced a bad coil and tracked down the bucking to the condenser.

Thanks everyone!

[bkreutz]

Good to hear. My Rover is the only "old" vehicle I have that still has points. I'm still debating this in my mind. Everything else I have has been switched to Pertronix because of the unavailability of OE quality condensers. There still seems to be a supply of NOS ignition parts for these so I'll probably leave the points in until the spares start coming in a box marked "Made in (fill in the Asian country of choice)":rolleyes: When I started as a mechanic, there was no electronic ignition and a condenser failure was almost unheard of, of course normal tuneup schedule was every year or 12000 miles, so I guess they didn't stay in there very long.