Time for clutch work?

[morgant]

Okay, I'm going to pull this out into a new thread and ask more concisely as even I'm having trouble organizing all the various aspects.

So, I've been driving my '82 Series III about 80mi/day commuting to/from work for the past week or so and the following shifting issues have come up:


Problem: On occasion, If I'm coming out of 3rd or 4th, I cannot "find" 1st or 2nd. Workaround: put it back into 3rd or 4th to get stuff to "turn" slightly, then I can "find" 1st and 2nd.
Problem: I started getting grinding when going up from 1st to 2nd, and then eventually when going up from 2nd to 3rd, with the clutch pedal fully depressed. Workaround: I started double clutching and haven't run into the issue while doing so.
Problem: In the last 24 hrs, when slowing and at low RPMs, if I fully depress the clutch pedal and slow further, the engine will stall. Workaround: Shift to neutral and let up on the clutch petal.


Now, it seems that the clutch engages close to the top of the pedal, but not having driven a Series Land Rover with a good, properly adjusted clutch, I really don't have anything to compare to. Also, the master cylinder looks full, the brakes work, and I can't seem to find any leaks (certainly none around the master cylinder or slave cylinder and none near the pedals on the other side of the bulkhead).

My hypothesis (but my actual knowledge on the subject is very limited) is that I need to overhaul the clutch. Does that sound appropriate?

If so, do you suggest just ordering the clutch kit (http://www.roversnorth.com/store/p-6544-clutch-kit-series-iii.aspx) & centering tool? While I've searched the forums, and read up on clutch replacement & transmission removal in my Blue Book (http://www.roversnorth.com/store/p-3913-haynes-manual-series-ii-iia-iii-225l-petrol.aspx), I still have lots of questions (mainly because I'm a very visual person and the pictures all show things already out and on a work bench, so various intermediary steps are "missing"). Will I need much more than a torque wrench, a floor jack (assuming I can move the transmission back with that?) and the usual array of sockets, spanners, screwdrivers, and pliers?

Also, as far as the master & slave cylinders go, do I need to replace those? I've read that the slave cylinder is easier to bleed than the master cylinder but that the Series III can be harder to bleed than the earlier slave cylinders? If just replacing the clutch, do I have to do anything with the master cylinder or just the slave cylinder? Don't mind teaching myself to bleed (seems straightforward), but want to limit the scope of further problems I create in addressing this issue.

Also, will the fact that I've got the Daihatsu 2.8L diesel in there make a difference? It seems like just the Daihatsu flywheel would've been modified (http://www.engineconversions.co.uk/fitting_dai.html).

Or, am I totally off in left field?

[SafeAirOne]

Well, to me, all the symptoms point to the clutch not fully disengaging when you push the pedal all the way down. Unless your disk is well worn and needs replacing anyway, I'd investigate everything outside the bellhousing.

EDIT: There isn't much adjustment available on the SIII clutch release system, but you might check to see that the nuts locating the pedal to the MC rod (nos. 19 & 23 below) haven't backed off and allowed the pedal end to get closer to the MC:


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/4701244505_1bc40ccc91_b.jpg

[bobzinak]

You can remove the slave cyl. without disconnecting the hydralic line ( I think thats true for a series 111 trans.) pull back the rubber dust cover and see if its full of leaking fliud. If you slave cyl. was leaking you would not see any evidence of it outside on the slave beacause the parts that would be leaking are inside the bell housing.. I would first jack up one rear wheel ( provided you don't have positraction in the rear). and start engine in first gear, depress clutch, if wheel is still turning your clutch is not disengauging...as above noted make sure that there is no freeplay in the master cyl. rod and the master cyl. it is a bitch to remove the six screws on the cover plate on the clutch pedal braket. once you do you can see the rod and master cyl. cup it fits into..there is no adjustment on the slave cyl. rod on series 111 trans. you can adjust the rod on the master cyl though. replacing the slave cyl is a very easy job couple of bolts and the hose.. the master cyl....may require you to remove front frnder if yous is a left hand drive...hope this helps bobzinak.

[siii8873]

I recently had clutch problems / trouble finding gears / not disengaging well, as you note.
I started my troubleshooying outside the bell housing as noted above.
I found a slave cyl that was corroded and not moving freely. I also was double clutching to get it to shift, what I think this was doing was making up for the slave cyl problem. Anyhow, I replaced the slave and rebuilt the master, things are better. I still have to search a little for 1st , 2nd when downshifting. Other problems are gone.

[morgant]

SafeAirOne & bobzinak, many thanks for the feedback. Completely makes sense and far easier than doing the clutch. siii8873, I'm glad to hear that the suggested plan of attack did resolve the same issues for you.

I re-checked the clutch master cylinder and it did appear to be a bit low on fluid so I topped it off, but am attempting to disassemble and inspect the cylinders for leaks. The six screws on the cover came off easily and I was able to peek at the master cylinder. It doesn't seem to be leaking, but seems to be well greased. At least, I think it's grease. That should be correct, right?

I got the bottom screw out of the slave cylinder, but I have very little clearance to get to the top screw due to where the exhaust downpipe goes from the Daihatsu diesel. The bolts seem to be 13mm. I can get my arm all the way down in there between the bulkhead, transmission crossmember, and exhaust downpipe, but there's only as much clearance as there's play in my socket (it's a cheap socket set, so not very tight). I'll have to pick up some metric wrenches... need them anyway.

I'm just hoping there's even enough clearance to get the clutch slave cylinder out of there. Once/if I get it unbolted. Was hoping to get it out of there and inspect for leaks tonight, but no such luck. Will have to see how early I can drag myself out of bed in the morning.

[morgant]

Tried quite a few more tools, angles, and methods, but it looks like I'll have to take the exhaust off to actually get it (at least that'll give me clearance to get the clutch slave cylinder out). There's one overlap in the exhaust just behind the transmission crossmember that's got a pipe clamp on it but also a couple tiny welds on it that I'll need to get cut/un-welded in order to remove the downpipe.

That said, I went to button everything up so I could test drive to see if topping off the fluid in the clutch master helped (and if the level goes down after driving), but when I put the lower clutch slave cylinder bolt in I managed to strip it. Not good.

[morgant]

Okay, so I finally got the exhaust apart. Had to drill & cold chisel out two tack welds on an overlap after the down pipe (just behind the transmission crossmember). My Hi-Lift jack got its first full use as a spreader to separate the exhaust. Unfortunately, that front part of the custom exhaust, even when fully disconnected, won't come out without pulling the engine or cutting it out, but I can move it around enough to now have full access to the clutch slave cylinder!

So, I'm going to pull & rebuild the master & slave cylinders (I'll order the kits & some fluid tomorrow) since I'm already this far into it. Any tips on draining the fluid out of the system? Can it be recycled like regular oil? I'd assume that it's time to replace the fluid since I don't know if/when it's ever been done.

[morgant]

Clutch slave cylinder is out and disassembled. I've got all the non-rubber parts soaking in white vinegar to loosen the tiny bit of external rust.

Just two questions this time:

First, I thought it looked like the tubing should be able to be unscrewed from the master and slave cylinders while they are still mounted, but it appears that I have to unscrew them from the flex hose and then the entire tubing has to turn to unscrew them from the master/slave cylinder. Is that normal or has my clutch tubing been bent incorrectly?

Second, my next step is to remove the clutch pedal/master cylinder mounting bracket. The six bolts & spring are not going to be easy, but they're very familiar territory. The one thing is removing the pin from the end of the pedal shaft. The "Blue Book" says use a "small pin punch", but it appears that I'd need a "tiny" pin punch. Is it even feasible to get that pin out without removing the bonnet and the brake pedal & hydraulics?

I am not going to touch the brakes, but I fully intend to do a complete overhaul of the clutch hydraulics since I'm in this deep.

[SafeAirOne]

The lines that go into both the master and slave are just regular flared tubes, held in place by male flare nuts. The nut should unscrew so you can pull the line straight out, just like all the rest . Nothing special about them.

[SalemRover]

If your master cylinder is leaking your shoe would be the best place to look for signs of leaks. The nuts that are on the master cylinder push rod have been known to move from vibration and will replicate a worn clutch perfectly when they misbehave. What happens is that the MC pushrod never fully releases the fluid from the MC and a small amount pressure is retained in the hydraulic system. Think of it as slightly depressing your clutch with your foot. This manifests itself when the pedal is sitting at the top position. There should be a slight amount of loose play when the pedal is at rest, akin to a toilet flush handle that it feels loose before it starts to engage a mechanism. I would remove the cover plate to the clutch tower and inspect the master push rod nuts to see that there should be a small amount of play when the pedal is sitting at rest. All my rambling is an expansion on why step 22 in your posted picture is important.

Good Luck

[morgant]

The lines that go into both the master and slave are just regular flared tubes, held in place by male flare nuts. The nut should unscrew so you can pull the line straight out, just like all the rest . Nothing special about them.

The male end (1st photo) seems to be crimped or pressed on. It doesn't rotate at all on the tubing (although, as the photo sort of shows, it butts up against the middle of a slight bend, so maybe that's hindering it). I've had to clean a ton of Waxoyl off all these parts, so it could just be gunked up, but the same seems to be true of the male end into the clutch master cylinder and that was not Waxoyl'd.

The female end (2nd photo) rotates easily and, if not for the bend just after it as well, would slide up the tubing as you mentioned.

A minor problem, but it's a pain trying to get the slave cylinder out & in w/the tubing still attached since it must be connected/disconnected w/the slave cylinder out due to the male end doesn't rotate on its own.

[SafeAirOne]

A minor problem, but it's a pain trying to get the slave cylinder out & in w/the tubing still attached since it must be connected/disconnected w/the slave cylinder out due to the male end doesn't rotate on its own.

That male nut should rotate on the tube, even with the bend in the tube. Just gotta work it with a bit of PB Blaster between the nut and the tubing. Just be sure to clean up any oil that might contaminate the clutch hydraulic system, not that there'd be a whole lot...

[scott]

if your pipe is bent to close to the nut it too will mess with the spinning. but i'd PB the heck out of it before trying to bend old pipe

[morgant]

Six months of infrequent work on the Land Rover later... I have the entirety of the clutch hydraulics disassembled. I have the clutch pedal assembly out (had to to be able to get the master cylinder out as everything was rusted together) and just need to get the pedal shaft out to sand & pain everything before re-assembly.

My question is which end should I drive the pedal shaft out from or does it even matter? I used my largest pin punch on the end which I removed the pin from, but it didn't budge. Should I try to get a section of pipe that more correctly matches the diameter of the shaft to drive it out?

Is this the replacement part if I damage the pedal shaft: http://roversnorth.com/store/p-7646-pedal-shaft-brakeclutch.aspx?

Unfortunately, the slave cylinder was too pitted by the soak in white vinegar, so I'm going to outright replace that. Probably will do the same with the master cylinder and just rebuild the one I have as a spare. While I was able to rescue the tubing, the male nuts are totally seized to the tubing, making installation & removal nearly impossible, so I'll only keep them as spares/reference as well.

[KevinNY]

I see no reason to disassemble the clutch pedal tower.

You mentioned much earlier that the exhaust downpipe was extremely close to the slave cylinder. The thought occurred to me that your problems might be due to that very reason, you might be boiling the fluid. Did the problems occur more after a good drive than a short trip around the corner? If so rigging a heat shield may be in order when you get it back together.

[morgant]

I see no reason to disassemble the clutch pedal tower.

Purely to be able to remove all the rust. I'd rather only disassemble the clutch pedal tower this once. :)


You mentioned much earlier that the exhaust downpipe was extremely close to the slave cylinder. The thought occurred to me that your problems might be due to that very reason, you might be boiling the fluid. Did the problems occur more after a good drive than a short trip around the corner? If so rigging a heat shield may be in order when you get it back together.

That did occur to me. I also discovered some paint peeling & discoloration on part of the bulkhead from the exhaust, so something is definitely needed. Was going to start w/some exhaust wrap.

[kwd509]

Purely to be able to remove all the rust.

Morgant,
You are ahead of me, as I begin tinkering with a rover that has been sitting for 25 + years. Want to remove clutch and brake hydraulics but find all the fittings rusted solid, seeming more resistant and fragile than nuts and bolts I've encountered thus far.
Did you discover any tricks in your process?
Thanks.

[morgant]

Want to remove clutch and brake hydraulics but find all the fittings rusted solid, seeming more resistant and fragile than nuts and bolts I've encountered thus far.
Did you discover any tricks in your process?

I had similar findings. That said, on my Series III, I found the fittings at the flex hose to be relatively easy to get apart and was barely able to get the clutch slave cylinder (w/slave-to-flex line still attached) out, then unbolt my clutch pedal tower (w/master & master-to-flex line still attached) out.

It was not easy to go this route (and my truck has a Daihatsu diesel engine in it, so the clearances may have made it feasible), but once I had everything on a workbench I was able to properly soak in penetrating oil (I'm currently using PB Blaster (http://www.blastercorporation.com/PB_Blaster.html)) and wrench them apart with far more luck.

[morgant]

Aha, the pedal shaft does just drive out from the indented end (the end that had the pin through it). Soaked w/a little penetrating oil, clamped it down to a bench, and used an even larger pin punch and it came out without fuss.

Alternating weekends I have access to a heated workspace w/benches, clamps, and all the power tools not in my personal collection. It's nice, but it's 150 miles away, so I think I've gotta build a portable, sturdy, outdoor work table for this kind of stuff. Winter weather be damned.

[kwd509]

Aha, the pedal shaft does just drive out from the indented end (the end that had the pin through it). Soaked w/a little penetrating oil, clamped it down to a bench, and used an even larger pin punch and it came out without .

Are you saying the little pin, and the instructions in the green bible are a red herring and misleading? That the whole assembly is simply drifted out of the bracket?

My rover's pedals seem fine with no slop, but while it is out I consider looking into this and perhaps disassembling so as to more easily treat rust on the bracket.......

My donor's clutch bracket and mc are chopped and not standard so I can use that to study the assembly....... So to return to your comment,....... The tiny pin seems unrelated to removal from the bracket..... Seems country to the manual. Please confirmmmm.

[morgant]

Are you saying the little pin, and the instructions in the green bible are a red herring and misleading? That the whole assembly is simply drifted out of the bracket?

...

My donor's clutch bracket and mc are chopped and not standard so I can use that to study the assembly....... So to return to your comment,....... The tiny pin seems unrelated to removal from the bracket..... Seems country to the manual. Please confirmmmm.

Sorry, I glossed over some info I had mentioned earlier, you do have to remove that pin first.

I don't have a copy of the Green Bible, so I've just been going by the Blue Book (http://roversnorth.com/store/p-3913-haynes-manual-series-ii-iia-iii-225l-petrol.aspx) which, admittedly, may not be as detailed. Here's what I did to remove the pedal shaft & pedal from the pedal tower:

1) Used a 1/8" (3mm) pin punch to remove the pin that prevents the pedal shaft from working its way out of the pedal housing. (lock pin? linchpin? what's the correct term for that?)
2) Sprayed penetrating oil in around the ends of the pedal shaft.
3) Used a very large pin punch (just shy of 1/2" as the inside diameter of the pedal shaft is 1/2") to drive out the pedal shaft from the indented end (not the end that's tapped for filling w/oil; so, the same end that the small pin was removed from).

Hope that helps you disassemble yours.

[kwd509]

Hope that helps you disassemble yours.

yes, that helps.

The pedals I have seem to have little if any play, and so I am not sure this is a high priority matter. did you have trouble with your pedals, or is your disassembly in the service of thorough painting?

Jay

[morgant]

did you have trouble with your pedals, or is your disassembly in the service of thorough painting?

More thorough painting... and procrastination under the guise of learning.

[kwd509]

More thorough painting... and procrastination under the guise of learning.


yes, I get it...... me too.

[morgant]

Okay, time to get my ass in gear and get my SIII running ASAP, I just found out I need to move it for some property excavation on May 9th! I've been aching to drive it (although my "cold weather" Land Rover-related project is still in the works), so it's probably good.

So, I'll be rushing to paint & reassemble my pedal tower and try to re-fit the clutch hydraulics so I can move it under its own power (or at least be able to easily get it into neutral).

I was originally going to buy a new clutch master cylinder, but I think 'm going to just do rebuild on the one I've got and hope it's good enough for now. I've got plenty of other things to throw that money at. Also going to have to try the ProLine slave cylinder.

Love our hosts for being able to toss together an order for me quickly (could save more money at some of the other suppliers, but don't find them as easy), but they can't have one of the lines in until late next week (let alone shipped to me). I know a number of people suggest cutting, bending, and flanging one's own lines and that NAPA is a good source for the parts. Unfortunately, I don't have easy access to a NAPA, are there any other good sources for the parts? Can you help me build a shopping list for making my own lines (tools, line material & dimensions, nut dimension & threads, etc.)?

Update: from my investigation, it looks like the piping/tubing is all 1/4". It sounds like cunifer/kunifer is the best material to go with. So I just need to figure out the fittings & tools (assuming I need a cutting tool, file, bender, and flanger) and source them all. Anyone know the specs of the female fittings that connect to the flex pipe & the mail fittings that go into the master & slave cylinders?

Another Update: I can reuse the female fittings that connect to the flex hose as they're in decent condition. ajr on the LRO mailing list had a brilliant suggestion of buying an appropriate length of pre-assembled tubing w/the male fittings & bubble flaring, cutting it, adding my usable fittings & re-flaring (since that end only needs a double flare, not a bubble flare).

That said, I'm having trouble determining whether the male fittings are 3/8-24 british or metric (w/non-threaded lead, in both cases). Does anyone know which they'd be for a 1982 RHD Series III? Unfortunately, my local AutoZone (which ajr suggested and happens to be considerably more local than NAPA), doesn't seem to carry pre-made 1/4" tubing w/the british fittings.

Still trying to get ahold of Trevor at RovahFarm since he seems to have pre-made clutch lines (RHD, even) w/the (hopefully) correct fittings.

A Further Update: Okay, I've struck out at AutoZone & NAPA. Bummer. I guess I'll be waiting for RN to order the tubing in question. The good news is I have the gear box & transfer case in neutral, so I guess I'll be pushing the truck to move it before the 9th. Anyone wanna help? :D

[morgant]

In between POR-15 prep & paint stages and primer coats (brushed... not fun on a pedal tower... looks like crap) this weekend, I soaked my master-to-flex pipe in PB Blaster again & kept working it. I was eventually able to break the nut free and work it so it spins freely, so I'll be able to take that backordered item off my order and get everything this week!

[morgant]

Okay, hopefully someone can help me out here: A 7/16" fitting threaded into the new clutch slave easily & smoothly, but seemed to have just the slightest bit of play. Since 7/16" is approximately 11.5mm and FedHill only lists 12mm x 1.0 (M8?) fittings for 1/4" line, does that mean that their 12mm x 1.0 w/non-threaded lead (http://store.fedhillusa.com/m84.aspx) is what I'm looking for?

[morgant]

I had to winch & push the SIII to it's new spot over the weekend as I'm still searching for this one last fitting, but I feel I'm getting extremely close.

I spent and hour as Fisher Auto in Waitsfield this afternoon and we found that it's definitely an 11mm fitting, but the 11mm x 1.5 they had only seemed to thread in 1/2 way. At this point, it must be either 11mm x 1.25 or 11mm x 1.0. The problem is, they could only find 11mm fittings for 3/8" lines, not 1/4".

I've got an email into FedHill to see if they've even heard of an 11mm x 1.25 or 11mm x 1.0 (w/non-threaded lead) for 1/4" line w/bubble flare.

On the other hand, while our hosts couldn't tell me the length of the SIII hard lines to figure out which I need (since mine seems to have the short one going master-to-flex and the long going to flex-to-slave; hence going this route), yet LRSeries has the long one (http://www.lrseries.com/shop/product/listing/8801/NRC4222-CLUTCH-PIPE.html) for SIII (both Genuine & Britpart) that appears to be the correct length (and the bends look to be in the correct spots to have straightened/re-bent to make the one I have). That said, it is just a photo. The Britpart one is inexpensive enough that I feel I could get away with cutting it up if it turns out to not be the correct length.

[morgant]

And ten months later (I don't even want to look up how long it's been since I started ripping clutch hydraulics out)...

First, to recap the fittings, 7/16" w/non-threaded lead & bubble flare. That said, I didn't end up making new lines.

Yesterday I got new clutch pedal tower from Ike @ Pangolin installed (I trashed the original trying to refurbish it in a hurry, don't ask), installed new flex line and my original flex to master. Unfortunately, the flex to slave is still seized on the slave end, but reverse of what I did when I took it off, I just threaded it on and installed both together. It's a new slave cylinder. Only finger tightened the bolts on the clutch slave (major pain as the exhaust down pipe is in the way and cannot be removed... I'm going to have to have that part of the custom exhaust redone) until I ran out of light and feeling in my fingers.

I had also disassembled my clutch master cylinder and found wear, so that's gotta be replaced. Should've ordered it long ago, but will be doing so this morning (from our hosts).

While I'm kicking myself for letting this sit for soooooooo long, feels good to be back on it and almost back together.

Update: And the new master cylinder is in and the old solid pipes reconnected. Unfortunately they leak at the fittings (one was seized up, so I should've known threading it on before installation wouldn't work). Live & learn. Looks like I'd have to order the solid pipes from the UK (since it's RHD) or buy some kunifer/cunifer, a bender, and a flange tool and make my own lines.

Back to the drawing board!

[morgant]

Over the last few months I picked up fittings (a few 7/16" x 20 UNF w/non-threaded lead, plus the female counterparts) & 6ft of cunifer 1/4" line from FedHill and double-flared and bent my own lines. That was quite the learning experience. My skill level seemed to work on a bell curve... I did great in the middle, but by the last flare I had to re-flare about 10 times! Got it all back together, no leaks, and I think I got it bled correctly, but now the clutch won't engage (when I parked it it wouldn't disengage, but I had managed to pop it out sometime in the process).

So, glad I have new clutch hydraulics, but on to the next step. Actually, before that, I realized I installed the clutch slave upside down (bleed screw down), so I need to invert that and re-bleed. I'm wondering whether, with the truck sitting this long, I managed to get the clutch release seized while pushed in.

[morgant]

A couple months later and I've finally gotten another weekend to invert the clutch slave cylinder to it's correct orientation, re-bleed the system, and viola, it works and it moves under its own power again! I have to reconnect the exhaust and pick up some exhaust wrap for the clutch line & exhaust since they run too close to each other (part of the original cause of the failure), but then it'll be on to the other major issues that have come up in the time it's been sitting.