Galvanized Body Capping & Riveting [Archive]

HinFL

07-26-2010, 02:12 PM

I am considering replacing the galvanized body and door cappings on our Rover, as it was all painted over by the PO. I've searched RN, as well as other forums on both sides of The Pond for advice. Now I'm just going to come out and ask for your opinions.

My only riveting experience was acquired last week. Our bonnet spare tire mount had 7 of its 9 rivets detach. I successfully removed them and, after clearing and realigning the holes, blind pop-riveted the mount back into place using a hand tool.

Ours is a 1973 Series III 88" (NAS) that we purchased about 2 months ago and is our first Rover. As best I can tell, the galvanized capping is currently secured exclusively with blind pop-rivets and not the dome-headed, solid rivets of earlier vintages. I am guessing that there was a changeover in rivet type and usage sometime around the earliest Series IIIs; purists please correct me if I am mistaken.

Please help this new guy with any advice, tips, tricks, tools, pitfals etc that comes from the vast knowledge and experience you all on the RN Series Forum possess. I have benefited greatly from you all already and am thankful. I anxiously await your comments...

TedW

07-26-2010, 02:24 PM

We will be informed very quickly if I am incorrect.

My advice to you is to use the proper genuine-Rover style sealed rivet, as sold by our hosts and available from other sources. They are much stronger (and are more expensive) than the hardware store variety.

They are also a bear to install; your garden variety hand riveter won't work. Either you won't get enough leverage to seat the rivet or you will break the riveter.

I recommend the Marson "Big Daddy" riveter, available on-line or at your friendly-neighborhood Grainger. Expect to pay $100 or so. It has enough leverage to install any rivet of any style / material.

Just my $0.02.

Good Luck!

crankin

07-26-2010, 02:31 PM

There are many, many discussions throughout this forum taking about the procedures and tools for both pop rivets and hammer rivets.

Some of the guys have talked about when the hammer rivets were replaced with pop rivets. My '72 has hammer rivets...but it looks like the later model had pop rivets. Someone correct me if I am wrong...but from the looks of things around 73-74 we had pop rivets...??

Some guys claim that hitting the solid hamemr rivets with a hammer works great, others claim that a air hammer gets the job done....I will swear by a pneumatic rivet gun. Marson "Big Daddy" for the closed end blind rivets works great. You will not be able to get a closed end blind rivet to work with a hand rivet.

Here are the post for rivet questions:
http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9576&highlight=rivets (http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9576&highlight=rivets)
http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5651&highlight=rivets
http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3970&highlight=rivet

Momo

07-26-2010, 03:06 PM

You say you're considering replacing the all the capping. Unless portions are rusted through or heavily damaged, you won't need to replace it. Strip the paint and regalvanize if necessary. For instance, soft-top Land Rovers have characteristic wear in their capping's zinc coating where the top or lashing ropes rub the capping and promote rust, and really, you are best to regalvanize any rusting capping- it will last you another 4 decades. All that nice new zinc looks great.

In areas where the factory could get a bucking bar on the back side of a panel, Rover used dome head rivets. In a few areas where the back side was inaccessible, they used pop rivets. I don't believe this changed until the production of Series III ceased.

Knock the old rivet heads off with a sharp chisel and drill out any stubborn remainder. Use the correct size drill bit so as no to enlarge the hole.

Rivetting is not hard, just time consuming. I did several hundred in a day once to complete all the trim on my 109. You need to make sure the head is seated, and take care not to mar the surrounding paint. A few practice runs using scrap aluminum or steel sheet or should help.

HinFL

07-26-2010, 03:50 PM

TedW, crankin & Momo -

Thanks for the quick responses. I will definitely use the proper sealing blind rivets as you say. I will also look into the "Big Daddy", as I am not familiar with it. Although it seems to be of good quality, the hand riveter I bought from Fastenal and used on our bonnet spare mount was challenging. It tended to skip off once the mandrel was sheared. I used layers of painter's tape to prevent body paint scraping.

I had considered stripping and re-galvanizing the trim we have. After reading about the toxicity, bodily pain and general unpleasantness of the chemicals involved, I thought it best to remove and replace instead. Further input and comment from y'all or others would be greatly appreciated.

Again, thanks to you three for lightning-fast responses, links and great info!!

TedW

07-26-2010, 04:04 PM

Some of the cappings are difficult to find new, especially the side rails and corners. I see re-dipped pieces on ebay occasionally.

Door tops and rear vertical corner pieces are usually available from our hosts.

Another benefit of Big Daddy is that it doesn't jump whe way you describe (I had the same experience with my old Arrow riveter). It has so much leverage that the pin just snaps with no reaction from the riveter.

Be sure to hang onto your old cappings. Someone else will want to re-dip them!

Momo

07-26-2010, 05:25 PM

No need to use chemical stripper. Just hit all the cappings with an angle grinder and knock off the paint. Or have them media blasted or acid dipped.

HinFL

07-26-2010, 05:40 PM

disco2hse

07-26-2010, 06:10 PM

TedW, thanks for the info on parts availability. I'll bear that in mind.

Momo, I'll check into the availability of blasting and/or dipping in our area (smalltown Florida) vice chemicals. Angle grinding is a definite possibility, though...

I can already hear the jeers from the purists on the forum but, does anyone have experience with silver Hammerite paint? I've read mixed results on its resemblance to real galvanizing, but have never seen it for myself. It would be much easier to tape and paint the cappings in place, but obviously not authentic. Any thoughts? (please go easy on me)

Aaargggh no!!! Do not paint them with Hammerite. For one thing galvanising is nothing like it and on the other it is an absolute pain to get off. Galvanising works by creating an oxidised layer over the zinc and should come out looking somewhat dull. It is not silver but opaque grey. I do not say this as a purist, god knows my old wagon sports lots of non-LR bits, but Hammerite can hold water which may result in the development of rust.

Don't use an angle grinder either. That will totally bugger up the surface which will then have to be sanded back. You will most likely find the old paint will come off easily with a thick sided scraper. Take your time. Don't be in a hurry and push the scraper to remove the paint. Zinc is soft and makes a poor surface to hold paint. This will help you in this instance. Doing it that way you will also not have to remove the parts (they can be scraped in situ), they will not have to be galvanised, which means you will not risk damaging them and nor will you have to redrill the holes (galvanising is cumulative), and finally you will not have to reattach them so no riveting. If you accidentally scrape through to the subsurface steel then touch it up with cold galv.

bkreutz

07-26-2010, 06:19 PM

I echo what Disco said. I used a curved pick tool that I rubbed along the paint, it just popped off (glad the PO didn't use acid etch primer) here's a couple of before and after pics. (do this outside, the little paint chips will drive you nuts trying to get them off the garage floor)

HinFL

07-26-2010, 09:52 PM

Disco2hse - Thank you for responding from as far away as NZ! I would be SO glad to do this in situ. I was/am hesitant about painting with Hammerite; your comments just confirmed it. Removing, refinishing and re-riveting don't sound like fun; unless absolutely necessary. I have wondered about the "cold galv" touch-up you mentioned. It looks okay?

bkreutz - those are great before and after pics. Congrats on some very nice looking door capping. I think that my PO used etch primer (or some other prep), as the paint seems to be very well adhered to the trim. We'll see what happens...

Again, thanks for all comments to date. Thanks in advance to anyone else who has similar, or other experiences to share with this new guy.

disco2hse

07-26-2010, 10:02 PM

I have wondered about the "cold galv" touch-up you mentioned. It looks okay?

Well, it's zinc in a can, so once it has oxidised you will probably see a difference in grayness where it has been applied, but then it is Land Rover and they are never perfect.

Etch primer makes it a whole lot harder but not impossible. I still it would be easier than taking it all apart and putting it all back together again. Think Humpty Dumpty.

Momo

07-27-2010, 02:16 AM

Don't use an angle grinder either. That will totally bugger up the surface which will then have to be sanded back.

When I say angle grinder I'm talking about the tool, not the attachment. A grinding disc would be way over the top. A steel bristle disc will work fine. If you're really concerned about marring the surface you could use a brass bristle disc, but probably not necessary. The paint will probably be loose and will flick right off with the steel bristle disc. If anything, it will burnish the surface with hard application, but it won't scar it.

The cold galvanizing spray is nothing more than zinc impregnated paint and like any paint it will loosen and flake over time. It won't match and will look like primer. IMO it's a half measure that isn't worth it... but it depends on what you're after. If you're doing a restoration, or at least a new paint job, then hot dip and re-rivet. If your goal is just to get rid of the paint, then strip mechanically and be done. Just make sure to mask it off with a few layers of tape to protect the adjoining Birmabright.

HinFL

07-27-2010, 05:35 AM

Thanks again to Disco2hse and Momo for more good advice. I will not be painting the Rover's body panels anytime soon, as the PO did a very good job of it and she was and is always garaged. I am NOT going for an award-winning restoration of the galvanized trim; just a return to a more original appearance.

The appeal is definitely there to do it in situ (the mention of Humpty Dumpty is both apt and funny). I suppose I could attempt to do that using the tools and techniques you guys suggested (judiciously taped around, of course). If it doesn't work, I could always then resort to the more involved and costly remove and replace...

SGS714

07-27-2010, 08:31 AM

HinFL, Great post-I have been pondering the same questions and just have not gotten to the point in my tweaking to begin the project. My IIa has the same paint over the trim. You bought Woodcutters rig....I was about 1 day slower than you and your check was in the mail, thus his truck went to FL instead of IL. I ended up spending 1/2 the money on my rig but am now at the same amount of investment after fixing everything to make it road worthy. My apologies for off topic, but had to jump in.

BGGB

07-27-2010, 08:44 AM

when i restored my 88 i stripped off all the old cappings cleaned them up and sprayed them with a cold galvanizing from a ACE can. at first i hated it because it was all one color gray and not the galvanized spottiness that i was hoping for. it was also soft and scratched easily. its been alittle over a year since then and now i love it. it has taken on the speckles you expect with galv and it is nice and hard. this is a good cheap $5 method if you don't mind waiting a year for it to cure....then again i did apply it in the middle of winter (senoir project that i needed to finsih asap)...as for the rivets i used bigflatsrivets and they worked just fine....good luck

Terrys

07-27-2010, 08:59 AM

In areas where the factory could get a bucking bar on the back side of a panel, Rover used dome head rivets. In a few areas where the back side was inaccessible, they used pop rivets. I don't believe this changed until the production of Series III ceased.
All bucked rivets were changed to "pop" rivets in the '73 model year, at least on US 88s. Everything that was bucked on my '72 is "popped" on my '73. Both are original.

HinFL

07-27-2010, 09:22 AM

SGS714 - congrats on the purchase of your Series IIA! I hope it's cooler in IL than it is in FL right now for you to enjoy it. I am very happy with Woodcutter's vehicle; thanks for recognizing it. We'll have to keep each other posted on what decisions we make and howgozits as far as this project is concerned.

BGGB - Thank you for your input on the cold galvanizing results. I will definitely bear it in mind as a possibility...

Terrys - You have cleared up the rivet type changeover question in my mind (at least for US spec Series IIIs, which mine is). Thank you for that elusive info! You have a pretty unique perspective since you own/owned both '72 and '73 models. I guess if SGS714 and I go for absolute authenticity on this project and take the remove and replace route, we'll be using different rivet types. We'll see...

crankin

07-27-2010, 09:24 AM

Galvanizing is not horribly expensive. I was able to go to a commercial galvanizer and through everything in for $150. That means…all capping, radiator, and bulkhead.

disco2hse

07-27-2010, 03:10 PM

When I say angle grinder I'm talking about the tool, not the attachment. A grinding disc would be way over the top. A steel bristle disc will work fine. If you're really concerned about marring the surface you could use a brass bristle disc, but probably not necessary. The paint will probably be loose and will flick right off with the steel bristle disc. If anything, it will burnish the surface with hard application, but it won't scar it.

Don't get me wrong, I like my angle grinder and abuse it regularly on everything from steel to stone but...

Even those 3M synthetic paint strippers will score steel let alone the underlying zinc seen here (I know, I've done it). Even the brass strippers would be too aggressive. On the other hand, if etch primer was used then it may be the only option :/

yorker

07-29-2010, 01:46 PM

All bucked rivets were changed to "pop" rivets in the '73 model year, at least on US 88s. Everything that was bucked on my '72 is "popped" on my '73. Both are original.

I used to think that was the case too but I have a '71 IIa 88" that has pop riveted cappings so it might be one of those oddball slow transition things?

SGS714

08-09-2010, 08:49 PM

Yesterday I had some time to kill and the temp dipped below 90F so I decided to give the capping a shot using a paint scraper with much success. Some of the chips came off in 1/2 1" sections and of course others were more stubborn. Once you get the first chip off it is not that hard....time consumming but worth the effort. 2 hours and I got the whole drivers side and rear done.

Wander

08-11-2010, 10:46 AM

What type of scraper did you use? My IIa also has painted over trim so I'm in the same boat.

bkreutz

08-11-2010, 11:51 AM

What type of scraper did you use? My IIa also has painted over trim so I'm in the same boat.

For me the trick was to go from the least aggressive tool and then adjust as the need arose. I used a curved pick that I rubbed along the paint, a lot of it flaked off from the pressure, then I moved towards the "pointy end" and did it again, finally I used the point for the stubborn flakes. It all depends on how stuck the paint is to the metal. I didn't want to scratch the galvanizing any more than I had to. After I was done, a brass brush blended in the scratch marks pretty well while maintaining the "patina" of the galvanized surface. HTH

disco2hse

08-11-2010, 04:25 PM

The edge of an old chisel could be good; not the sharp blade, but the side. Using the blade you would pull with it pressed against the paint to be removed, not pushing like it were a chisel.

SGS714

08-11-2010, 09:05 PM

I used a 2-3" putty knife (not a paint scraper as I mis spoke earlier) and ended up sharpening often. I was very careful with the angle I used with it and the flex in the large blade kept it from digging in at all. I would lay the edge next to area and then set a couple fingers on the blade to bend it almost parallel with the cap and pushed it and then hit the area with on of those real porious stripper pads by itself to remove the part of the paint that was left on.

bobzinak

08-12-2010, 01:18 PM

There are several less harsh paint removers you can get to take of the paint with out damaging the galv. finish, you could try MEK with fine steel wool, just dont get it on your body work. once you get it cleaned off you can lightly etch the galv. with muriatic acid, used with fine steel wool, have a source of water to rinse acid off so it does not over etch the galv. it made mine look like new and removed all the rust stains too. once you have cleaned the galv. give it a coat of clear spray to keep it looking good. the only problem with painting it or cold galv. spray if that it loses the nice galv patterns that are so rover. even after market galv. jobs dont have that smooth rover look..try it, it is fast and easy. (be vary careful with powered tools on you galv. trim) rove on, bobzinak...

coltsphan

08-15-2010, 09:49 AM

When we are restoring old window hardware, we boil the hardware in fabric softener and water for a few hours and all of the paint/finish comes right off. Worth a shot.

disco2hse

08-15-2010, 04:22 PM

When we are restoring old window hardware, we boil the hardware in fabric softener and water for a few hours and all of the paint/finish comes right off. Worth a shot.

:D:D:D

Be good to get the oil off the rest of the vehicle too. Just might be little difficult explaining to SWMBO why there's a Land Rover in the bath.

ducttape

08-16-2010, 06:05 AM

Sorry I didn't do a before/after too. Your reddie looks MUCH better after!

I echo what Disco said. I used a curved pick tool that I rubbed along the paint, it just popped off (glad the PO didn't use acid etch primer) here's a couple of before and after pics. (do this outside, the little paint chips will drive you nuts trying to get them off the garage floor)

Skeeball

08-16-2010, 03:18 PM

Momo and Disco2hse advise is spot-on

I have done this twice using the correct Hammer rivets which are available in bulk from McMaster-Carr. For the visible body cappings use aluminum hammer rivets you will need a bucking bar and a cheap air hammer gun its not hard to install them correctly where the fixings are non-visible use aluminum rivets with aluminum mandrels.

Have the body cappings hot dipped
Easily...hit any heavily rusted/pitted areas with a grinder or sand paper easy does it any excess old paint or finish will be removed when the parts are re-dipped as they get an acid bath first.

NRutterbush

08-19-2010, 02:27 PM

Have you considered walnut-shell blasting? Crushed Walnut shells are commonly used as an abrasive blasting media to strip and polish aluminum and other soft metals. I haven't tried it, but I would bet that you could do it in place on the truck, remove the paint, and leave behind nice, freshly exposed zinc surface that could re-oxidize to a pretty fresh looking galvanic coating.

Has anyone else tried this? I intend to soon, but it might be good to have some experienced advice.