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anyone have any quotes?
anyone have any recommendations for the install as far as service centers.
I figure someone out there has to offer it reasonably, some business is better than no business right? after all it's only installing an engine and transmission, maybe a fitting
:)
it's done all the time on other cars - shouldn't cost 15K$
It's not an engine replacement, it's a conversion. Done correctly with all the ancillaries it is way more involved than unbolting a v8 and replacing it with another one. Where are you going to mount fuel filters, what about the exhaust system, fuel return lines to the tank, fitting the intercooler etc. If it was easy and cheap then it would be easy and cheap:)
It can easily cost 15k. All depends on what condition the donor parts are. If it is all new parts then just that will be over 15k.
Used can be done with a good lower mileage serviced engine and trans with wear items (clutch, timing belt, water pump, easy gaskets, rad and intercooler) replaced for about 12k or so.
well then, I invite you to explore the subject. Full disclaimer, I know next to nothing about installing an engine. But like all things I firmly believe what one man can do, especially if it is done on a regular basis, another can do!
please correct me where you feel my assessment isn't accurate or you disagree. I believe having a healthy inventory of tdi Defenders in the US would be good for all; owners, parts suppliers, service shops, importers, and adventurers :thumb-up:
respectfully, since car mechanics isn't exactly a mystery science ( not to play down its complexity ) and considering ebay.co.uk and even US ebay has plenty of available "reconditioned" engines and engine manuals I guess it is better I learn to do it myself with a few friends or better yet the local garage who has all the tools for hire :rolleyes: and learn a thing or two about my engine which is always good
I understand it may require new mounting brackets etc. but the Defender engine bay appears to have plenty of room for either a 200tdi which fits snug without any new brackets, or a 300tdi a little more tight
you can pick up a decent engine&R380 off LRM, LRX, or ebay or the internet for a few grand, certainly under 3K$ US have it shipped and ready - especially if you know someone in the UK, and I do. Or go myself. I have seen the whole kit for sale on LRX in the US for 1500 bucks or so from time to time
I'm sure you will agree that 12K$+ is cost prohibitive since that money could be used for travel and or accessories at places like Rovers North not to mention the average joe or family man can't justify an expenditure like that when it can go to other investments - just seems frivolous no matter how much cash on hand you have. Although the long term benefit for a daily driver might be sensible when you add up gas and service costs versus a V8 from LR or any other car company
The draw of the tdi for me is reliability and economy. A 1000 miles in a V8 4.6 runs north of $300.00US+ @ $3.00 a gallon x 25 gallons = 250miles per tank not including one tank to refill at your destination. That is an unloaded vehicle with no rack.
Having owned 3 Discos that has been my experience
A round trip from say NYC --> Asheville NC would cost $600+ in a V8 in just highway fuel ( more like $900 ) That is considerable
compare that with a diesel 20gallon tank @ $4US a gallon x 20 = $80 per tank. If you're averaging 25mpgx20 = 500miles per tank, or $160US every 1000 miles versus $600 in a V8
25mpg in a 200tdi or 300tdi is more than reasonable even loaded
In fact after doing some research the only real drawback it appears to the 200tdi is the parts available in the US and a lower high end speed, maybe the 300 is a little more simple
since there are a plethora of 200tdis coming in maybe I will just wait for a nice truck from roversouteast or globalLRs or something, they seem to have the best bang for the buck
the 300tdi from importers seems to add about 10-15K for some reason, I don't think they are doing the install either from what I can gather
so if anyone has online pamphlets of the engine installation or a step by step install please post up! otherwise I suppose I will be buying the manuals off ebay and calling ECR from time to time :D
just trying to be smart with my money which I know is contrary to the whole LR experience hah but hey, we can try! :thumb-up:
All this theory is wonderful.
What happens when the novice gets stuck?
Who does he turn to? Will the professionals, who do this as their livelyhood, give advice free?
There is no re-install manual, even when the manufacturer offered these as an install option the info. was sketchy to say the least.
:(
I did the swap in my backyard. While your heart is in the right place, your post shows you may be in for more than you bargained. I doubt calling ECR will be of much help, I don't think Holly has done many TDi swaps.
There is alot of good and bad information out there. If you are used to big wrenching projects and have some fabrication ability you should be able to do the work. The hardest part for me was figuring out the pieces I did not have. It is much easier to fix the broken than the missing.
So, go to ebay uk, buy your engine "kit." Ship it over and put it in. Figure anywhere from $3000 on up if you do everything yourself. Maybe less if you get really lucky with your engine purchase. Like, really really stupid lucky.
Oh, and sign me up for those $1500 tdi kits...right. As for imported vehicles that already have a tdi, try to look for ones that use the proper r380 transmission and have as close to a factory appearance to the engine bay as possible.
There is no step by step, this is not tinker toys...though it is similar, and simple in the grand scheme of things.
At a minimum, to do a proper install of the 300tdi into an early defender without alot of custom bodge-work
300tdi defender engine complete with starter, alternator, turbo, airfilter and fuel filter and all associated pipework, and hopefully wiring
R80 trans and 1.4:1 LT230 transfer box from 300tdi defender
300tdi Rad, intercooler, and associated pipework
300tdi gearbox crossmember
300tdi exhaust full system
300tdi floor panels, transmission tunnel, firewall adapter, and seatbox (and sound insulation for same)
300tdi front and rear defender driveshafts
300tdi engine and gearbox mounting rubbers and chassis brackets for welding to the frame
Glow plug wiring and relay
300tdi PS reservoir bracket
300tdi PS pipes
300tdi Radiator support brackets
300tdi Bonnet prop mount
300tdi/r80 clutch hard line and flex line
I'm sure I am missing something here...I think a v8 throttle cable might work...and you may need to change the handbrake cable and handle depending on how new your setup is.
Of course you will want to replace the clutch, timing belt and tensioner, waterpump, fuel lift pump, rear main seal, and some other gaskets before you drop it in.
I managed to modify my install a bit to save having to track down some of the parts. But that is not for everyone. I'm in it for at least $3500 by now. Maybe more after the recent custom exhaust work necessitated by my "improvements" to the install :)
Though I did sell the old lt77 box for a portion of that. And no I can't get more engines :(
In a nutshell, you can probably do it if you have good mechanical ability and are willing to ask question and listen to the answers.
best I have seen is 24mpg from my 300tdi D90.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z O O R O P A
look @ http://www.cws4x4.co.uk/
complete kits for about $3k
I can't believe a LR 4 cyl tdi would cost $15k :confused: WHY?
Are they that much more reliable?
Are there as many part suppliers in the US for the tdi as there are for the good o'l LR V8?
The LR 3.9L V8 can struggle to keep up with traffic on an incline...I can't imagine how a 4 cyl tdi can be any better.
Dave, you're 100% correct. Holly has never done a tdi swap.
Zoo --- I'm sure you're armchair is very cushy. Les made a very valid point, what happens when you get "stumped", which is very probable for even posting the way that you did.
Call ECR, see how far that gets you, or any other Indy shop, if mechanical things are beneath you, then why are you even asking any questions.
15K is short money to have it done right with decent parts.
Did you ever see what a $2000 200/300 diesel looks like?
I'm not trying be overly brash, but your last post warrants this a little.
Is the swap hard,... nope. But if you've never done one, there are things you'll miss, I'll bet on it.
So, calm down, reposition in your chair and sip your D/D coffee.:D
great responses all!
yes my armchair speaks volumes as you can see :p
I just want to thank everyone for taking a few minutes to share their knowledge and experience.
Forgive me, I did not want to come off presumptuous at all. If my discourse projected I know what I'm doing, I don't and my apologies. The only inspiration was that it can be done for a reasonable sum and to get myself familiar with the set up
And I agree 100% I would not do it right the first time around without at least hiring some expertise for consultation. No question. But over a few summer weekends with some instruction I think it certainly could be done for far less than the quotes I've received recently
Les, fortunately, I have access to some great and renown Rover service centers; Rovers North, the 4x4 Center, Lanny Clark, etc for when I get over my head, and I will get over my head :D
Dave thank you for the extensive write up, I wholly applaud you for the undertaking
there are certainly not as many parts available in the US for tdi engines. I am surprised to hear of the mpgs reported here as all the UK sites I peruse and some US owners have reported much better results
I guess maybe some other options might be to have it done over in the UK despite the exchange rate if I could find an appropriate vehicle before it gets snatched up
I'm still exploring it but I am excited at the prospect. Perhaps some further investigation might make it seem more possible or it might deter the idea all together :cool:
anyway, I thought it was a good subject for debate and thanks again for contributing, it is nice to get others perspectives
pretty much anything needed for these motors can be had in a day or two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Z O O R O P A
I keep most service items in stock and our hosts carry a large inventory.
I also work on, install and drive them daily, have done for years, have not seen 25mp(US)g yet. Probably can get low 20's on the hwy.....gets about the same around town.
You have to drive along way to break even. Not the right reason to do the swap.
Also UK gallons are a bit bigger...
hence the 20 mp(US)g in my response. The fuel consumption of these things seem to be an ongoing debate. I have a bog standard RRC (not the S$$T!) that I've been playing with to see what can be acheived. Cannot get 25mpg avg. Can get 23 all day long, short trip, long trip, full of people , empty, towing a small boat.....doesn't matter. Does go down a bit if you drive over 65mph. Considering the same rig with the V8 did about 12-13 mpg it's a pretty good gain but will still take allot of driving to pay for itself. it had a brand new crate motor (factory kit) installed which for an RRC with AC and the correct trans, cruise control etc. runs about 26K (installed).
I get people dropping jaw on a daily basis ( yours too I think eh daveb?) it seems with the cost of these diesel installs. I also have more of them to do than I can schedule right now. There must be some sort of value in it, and I'm certainly not getting rich quickly (sort of a slow smelly rich!).
interesting, good point making the distinction, I had forgot the difference between UK and American gallons
26K :eek: for an engine install . . . kind of speaks for itself :sly:
unless you're in NYC or SF or something
some US owners on a US overland site reported this week the following;
low to mid 20s on a Defender 130 @ 65mph, 300tdi
200tdi 28-30mpg D110
TD5 26-28 @ 65mph D110
another TD5 owner 20-24 even @ 85mph D110
so I guess it varies
looking at the increase in availability in 25yo imports with diesels, it appears is most likely the way to go or just have a conversion done in the UK before shipping, even with currency exchange it would be far cheaper, which says a lot
I'm at a loss to understand how the cost would run north of $12-15K. $26K? what's your labor rate? do I get a diamond ring with that? or some fries? :D
then again, in America you can really spend as much as you want on anything you want
just teasing, sounds like you do superb work especially if you're booked up :)
there is a 200tdi coming in this week and 7 more diesels otw from another place I am exploring, let you know how it goes
thx again everyone for your insight and wisdom
Indeed, although I wasn't really surprised, just confirmed what I already knew. Was hoping mine could somehow be done on the cheap, for some reason. Actually probably would have been more than quoted due to all the non standard crap that I did :)Quote:
Originally Posted by junkyddog11
Zoo, you don't even want to know the cost of a new complete 300tdi engine. I'm afraid I will always be stuck with the junkyard units from the UK...its ok, I've never had a new engine in anything, only rebuilds or "unknown" and I've done ok. Always somewhat of a crap shoot though when buying from overseas.
Dave love your signature quote from RH, that is a superb video isn't it?
would your recommendation then to either have it done in the UK overseen by a friend or just get a whole package and take my luck with an import?
what issues should I look for in a 200 or 300 that is used or what expectation should I have on a refurbished one?
many thanks!
I will personally vouch for Matt's quality of conversions. He is not a mechanic he is a craftsman. I had him do a straight NAD conversion on my 88 late last summer. Everyone who looks at the end result tells me that unless you know it was a gas job in it's prior life you wouldn't know the difference. Matt will tell you and so will the folks at ECR that you don't do a diesel conversion to save one red cent. You do it because that is what you want. Will the conversion save me any money, NO! Would I do it again, YES in a heartbeat! I am super pleased with my oil burner and wouldn't have my Rover any other way but I simply love diesel engines. The added benefit to my diesel fume induced happiness is that I have gained a great true friend in the process. In short, make sure you do any conversion be it diesel or souped up gas engine for the "right" reasons by the right shop or you will, in my opinion, end up with a piece of junk and tons of headaches.
Jim
I'm sure that is true and no one is questioning the skills of Rover mechanics, just the prices and the potential of doing it yourself. To avoid the whole economic supply/demand niche market thing, yes people pay it, happily
does that mean you can't have a good reliable engine installed, that will perform well, put in by a novice or assisted; of course not. It isn't one way or the other. We are talking car mechanics/engines, not mapping the human gnome. Yes it requires attentiveness but it should not require 10-20K large UNLESS you want everything absolutely done new to perfect specs.
exploring it some more:
It seems the best way to go is buying an import with a diesel already installed unless you want to go to the UK and travel a bit, what a great opportunity. A sleeping bag, passport, and a map would be a fun time if you can buy a good reliable runner. Then ship it over. This will cost less from buying an import but you're gambling until you get the rig inspected and you know what to look for. I don't . . . yet :)
But if you want to say finance the deal, the car must be in the country already so that limits your options but not in a bad way. There are some nice rigs coming into the country for less than 20K$US
I guess as the conversation evolves, the real question is; what do I look out for when inspecting a refurbished or used diesel engine? 200/300? obviously rust, condition, type/amount of smoke out the pipe, sound, gear suppleness, etc.
what are the typical downfalls of each engine? we have access to some great experts here so this should be straight forward? If I was going to look at a US V8, I'd look for records, oil, leaks, valve issues, belts, last major service, fluids, etc. Most likely that won't be an option, but there have been half a dozen or so one owner imports coming in at good prices that do have service records
can anyone knock out a list of considerations when looking at a used rover diesel?
Not sure what you mean by conversions speaking for itself or the NYC/SF connection but the 26k install is for 18+K in new factory parts and and 100+hrs at shop rate of 75/hr. That's for a spanking new factory motor / trans and all AC / cruise control / every part that would have been on this car if factory built. If you were to drive it or look under the bonnet it would certainly speak for itself. It's a car you cannot buy here, cannot import here and is rare even in Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Z O O R O P A
I'd suppose you'd get a real laugh at the 100k+ plus Defenders that roll out of my shop.
I deal with 200tdi all the time also and they don't get better mileage than a 300.
I also deal with TD5's which do get very slightly better mileage....still not the range I see quoted frequently.
Anyhow....good luck with it. I'm not trying to be a buzz kill. It would in theory be to my advantage to inflate the actual performance figures of these things, and to deflate the cost. Just keeping it real.
thanks Matt, appreciate your wisdom and experience
can you tell me what to look out for when gauging a 200/300 as far as major issues besides leaks or basic commonsense stuff?
again, thanks!
love to see some of your work if you want to post up some pics :thumb-up:
For the most part leaks are about all you have to look for. I like to replace the timing belt and tensioners, front and rear main seals and fuel lift pump regardless of history. I generally do all the hoses. Service history or an acurate mileage count is nice.
Photos of an International 2.8 TGV (stroked 300tdi in drag) currently being installed. Not completed.....need a couple more days on that.
I love my V8s. I have a 3.5 110 and a 3.5 130. Also a 4.6 Classic. I also have 2 200 Tdi Disco, a 200 Tdi 110 and just bought a 300 Tdi Disco.
The 130 is an expedition vehicle. The 110 Tdi has a rotten bulkhead, so all the mechanics is going to be transplanted into the 130 to make it more useable on a long run. I will get a longer range out of the fuel tank, and carrying spare fuel is safer. (btw, I was quoted about £1,000 to do the conversion)
Given the choice, I would have chosen a 200 Tdi engine. Why? It's simpler than the 300. The 300 has the serpintine belt with noisey tensioners, EGR systems, head gaskets failures, dog-leg gasket failures, etc. But the 200 just keeps going. And, in my experience, you sometimes get a good 300 engine, but most of the time they don't have as much poke as a 200.
And if I'm being really, really honest, they are just as quick as the V8s when you're moving. Not as quick from a standing start, but once rolling they pull well. Infact my Tdi 5 speed Defender will easily outrun my 4 speed with overdrive V8 110.
Tdi's just dont sound as good as the V8s though... :(
Mind you, a tuned TD5....raaaa!!
Tried the Youtube box thingie...didn't work...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cidnFAa8XEU
They're also a fair bit wetter, which also helps when computing MPG.Quote:
Originally Posted by daveb
I did not know that. How is the wetness measured?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gambrinus
In MUs (Misery Units)Quote:
Originally Posted by daveb
I got a pretty good deal on my 300Tdi and R380 gearbox. Cost me £900 for the pair complete with everything else I needed to stuff them into my 110. Took a bit of a chance on the sellers claim that all was good, and luckily it turned out well. Shipping to Halifax was about $400. Shipping to me in Ontario was another $150. I bought a timing belt kit and a complete exhaust system. Also got a block heater. Couple buddies and I installed it and that cost me a couple lunches and a dinners. So for a bit less then 3 grand, I think I did pretty well. Then I was able to recoup a nice amount selling the short bell housing R380 I removed from my truck. Could have got more back but held on to the 2.5 NA diesel engine for my series.
So yeah, if you are lucky, it can be done for a reasonable cost. Certainly helps if you are fairly handy and have some switched on Land Rover friends willing to help out.
Engine has been in the 110 for two years now as of this weekend.
Brett
Not sure where the floods of 200 and 300 tdi engines are coming from or who is getting them in, or if its even happening, but keep in mind these engines are not approved by the epa and are therefore not legal for highway use in the US. I think sending $3k to some dude in the UK for a clapped out engine with a salt rotted radiator, from a car with unknown milage (funny how they always state its 80-100k miles) is a case of fool and his money easliy parted-but most of us have taken the risk and thats the only way it happens cheap. Why is because LRNA never tried to offer them and never petitioned to have them approved. A 1989 200 tdi is a legal engine this year (epa 21yr rule)- but it cannot be in a 1985 110 when imported as the original engine is supposed to be in that truck for it to be a legal import per the letter of the law. Don't mean to sound negative but like Carey,Matt, and Dave, I think you have the wrong impressions. All four of us have spent a ton of time with these engines. Also the 200 and 300 Tdi's are exactly the same size and displacements, one is mounted further forward because of the transmission inputshaft/bellhousing length than the other. BTW Daves backyard install rivals my factory one....oooopps.
That was me before tweaking the pump for more torqueQuote:
Originally Posted by Z O O R O P A
65 seems to be that magic number where economy drops dramatically. The engine will cheerfully catepult you down the road faster..
There is no way to inoculate yourself against unexpected expenditures by reading web advice, even advice from the very-qualified. If you've never done or budgeted for a big project before (on your car, your house, your lawn, whatever) then you are going to mess up the cost and time estimate. Even pros have cost overruns all the time, its nothing to be ashamed of, but its something that should be understood. Bottom line: Once you figure out what you think your cost will be for the project, don't bother starting unless you can afford to spend at least twice that figure.
That being said, you can substitute your time for $$ in some cases - i.e take a drive shaft out and have it shortened for a hundred bucks instead of buying replacements etc. But then of course you have to know what dimensions you need etc.
Good luck, but don't come back claiming victory if you do a cheap install and have any parts from Home Depot or Lowe's under the hood.
Now its my turn end a mildly insulting message with a smiley :)
Jim that's too funny. Try as I might, I can never get the parts from Home Depot to fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimC
I got a claw hammer from Home de pot to fit once. it went through the Birmabrite like butter. Left it for several weeks before filling hole with V8 oil fill cap. (yup, back to genuine parts)
Zooropa,
just to show that all engines from the UK aren't junked motors. These guys http://www.turner-engineering.co.uk/index.html do rebuilt engines running from £1950 exchange (about $3000). Obviously you would have to ask them about a non exchange engine but they do ship world wide. They have an excellent reputation for quality here in the UK.They also do perfomance cylinder heads which again have a great reputation. I don't know anything about import regs into the US so that'll have to be something you work out.
All the best
kyle
One of the drawbacks of obtaining major units from the UK is warranty.
Our experience has been that many suppliers are reluctant to follow up with after sales service.
RN stands by their products, I am sure their are folks on this BBS who will chime in with their own feedback on this.
2p
Its tempting but I will keep my mouth shut :) :) :) :) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Parker
Les, like you mentioned, warranty support may not exist but whether or not that is needed, well that's something for the individual to decide. That's the beauty of living in America!:thumb-up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Parker
regards
Kyle
To my knowledge Turner sells blocks,long blocks, and cylinder heads for use as replacements but no complete running units with all ancillarys for diesel conversions as per this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by kylepres
M&D http://www.mdengineering.co.uk/ is the premier kit exporter in the UK.
I believe that is correct. Not to mention a certain cylinder head that had a .002" step machined right down the middle of it. That was "within spec" according to the fine folks at Turner. Oops I said I was gonna keep my mouth shut. Ah well, that was over 10 years ago...:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Maryland 110