Gearbox linkage? Probably?

[Artificer]

I've been having a lot of trouble shifting gears. I described the problem to a (probably) reliable source on a Facebook group. If you guys are interested I'll copypaste the email conversation we had. Boiled down, this source said that my shifting problem is probably due to a buggered linkage. I've researched the problem as best I can, but I've never taken apart a gearbox or even pulled one from a vehicle. I know in principle how to get it out and I have access to the required equipment to make it easier, but my real question is this: how difficult would it be for me, a relative novice, to pull apart the top of the gearbox, fix the linkage, put it all back together, and not have any extra parts left over? Taking it to a mechanic would be nearly impossible; I've looked extensively and there's nobody within land rover driving distance who wants to touch a series vehicle with a 10 foot spanner.

If it's not the linkage, what are other possibilities? I plan on replacing the clutch master cylinder regardless, it's the original and the slave cylinder is less than 10 years old. Getting another gearbox is something I'm willing to consider, but I'd like to avoid spending the money.

[SafeAirOne]

What sort of problem are you having shifting, precisely? It could be many things, depending on your symptoms--almost all of them on the OUTSIDE of the gearbox.

It would be pretty rare. IMO, for any of the shifter forks on the inside of the transmission to be bad, and I can't think of anything else on the inside of the box that would be described as a "linkage."

[Artificer]

The following is the email conversation, with just the other fellow's name edited out. I didn't omit anything, including friendly chatter and typos. His interest in helping seems genuine to me.

Nathan. I have owned land rovers for almost 50 years, I currently own 4 series models. I have a detailed knowledge of the transmissions having repaired and rebuilt scores of them over the years. I also have a few complete spares and a lot of parts. I am not a commercial enterprise, I am not out to sell my services to make a living, I try to help fellow Land Rover owners when I am able.

What are your mechanical capabilities? Are you able to do your own wrench work? Do you have a good selection of tools? I ask merely to know how to tailor my advice.

What exactly is the trouble you are experiencing with yours?

Can you easily engage first gear when you put your foot on the clutch? or does it grind? Is it worse from 1 to 2 or from 3 to 4?
Normally with the non synchro boxes, when changing up, one does not need to double de clutch, but change gear steadily, not snap it, almost a momentary pause in neutral, one needs to double de clutch when changing from 3rd to second (3-4 and 4-3 is synchro) and from second to 1st, this one being the most difficult.
The hydraulics need to be in good order and the slave and master cylinder adjustments need to be correct, otherwise there is a loss of clutch movement. As the clutch wears these setting become more important. There are some dimensions listed in the manuals.
Another common problem with the series 2 is the clutch linkage, there is a tube connector between the clutch lever and the clutch housing, this is to act like a universal joint, it has a pair of 1/4 diameter dowel pins through the tube, one in each shaft, sometimes these break so the fit between the shaft and the tube is bad and a lot of clutch motion is lost, leading to grating gear changes.

If the ball on the end of the gear lever gets worn (some were made with a plastic ball that breaks) it is possible to try and shift the gear lever sideways from say 2nd to 3rd before the 1st 2nd selector shaft is truly in the neutral position, which is prevented by the selector balls, thus making the gear change attempt very difficult.

Regards
LandRoverGuy

Feb 8

Hey LandRoverGuy

My mechanical ability is roughly that of a first year shop student. I'm much more comfortable with large machinery such as milling machines and hydraulic presses. They look complicated, but they're actually very simple machines. My electrical knowledge is embarrassingly bad, especially for a Land Rover owner. I mostly muddle through repairs on my Landie, doing as much as I can myself to save money and hopefully learn a thing or two. I do all the routine maintenance myself, but that's not saying much.

As to my specific problem with shifting, I'll go through it gear by gear:

Unless I am at a very slow roll (less than 15 ft/sec), shifting into 1st gear grinds very noisily and shakes the whole truck when it finally shifts. Shifting from 1st to 2nd does not grind usually, but makes the whole truck shudder.
Shifting from 2nd to 3rd is comparatively like shifting through butter. It's actually about as smooth as shifting in my '99 Nissan Sentra was, when I still had it. Shifting from 3rd to 2nd grinds horribly unless I'm rolling at <5 mph, or the gearing mysteriously lines up perfectly (happens roughly once a week).
Shifting from 3rd to 4th is just as smooth as 2nd to 3rd, 19 times out of 20. Shifting from 4th to 3rd is fine as long as I'm moving at less than 15-20 mph, any higher and the truck shudders badly.

Shifting in and out of overdrive is no problem.

Often there is a significant delay (1-2 seconds) between when I depress the clutch pedal and when I can actually feel the plates separate. Often the truck shudders when the plates move. This is at it's worst when I am in 4th and trying to downshift, such as when I approach my driveway or a yellow light. Sometimes I have to forcibly yank the gearbox into neutral and then slam it into second gear before I come to a stop, because I know I'll never get it into first while I'm moving that fast and I don't really need to start that low most of the time anyway. There are no hills in southern New Jersey.

I really appreciate the time you're giving me.

Regards,

Nathan


Feb 8

to me
What you are describing sounds very much like an issue with the layshaft bearings, if the bearings are worn, the shaft can move around, the layshaft is weak and so is the first gear, it is straight cut, the rest are helical. What year is you series? The early ones had a 3/4" dia front bearing which was very weak, in the 2A they changed it to 25 mm. whats it like in reverse? first gear on the layshaft is also used in reverse.
The only way to be sure is to strip the box. It's a PIA, typically about 4 hours to remove from the Landie, if the floor comes out easy, 2 or 3 hours to clean the box, then if it's only the main box, a couple of hours to fix the box, then another 4 or so to replace.
Usually on an overhaul I replace the layshaft bearings, the first gear and the 2/3 mainshaft gear bronze bush 9when this wears they jump out of 3 or 40

Whats the state of the joints in the rear prop shaft?

If you brought it here I could give you lessons in overhauling it. I could also rebuild one of my existing stock, but at the moment I am a bit tied up. I retired a couple of years ago, but have had a lot of calls back lately since the young guys today can't do the hands on stuff that I do, or did! (lol) I was in Mexico the week before last.

I imagine that shipping is quite expensive, a complete box weighs upwards of 250 pounds. I charge $150 an hour for cleaning and $10 an hour for fixing the box!! ( I hate the cleaning operation, it takes so long and is so messy!)

How far away are you from Al Richer in North Chelmsford MA? He is good with boxes, I took one to him last year when I vacationed in the area. He was planning on rebuilding it. Maybe he might work something out quicker than I can.
The problem with getting a used box, is that it's unlikely you know the history, the parts I always replace costs around $150, It's a lot of work fitting the box to test it! (I've done it a few times, so eventually I learned) I used to compete off road a lot when I lived in the UK and broke a lot of gearboxes. One time I had a V8 engine and it was a bit too powerful for the standard box, the one I have now has the Range Rover box in it. I also have a couple of series 2 swb and a series 3 LWB

I served an apprenticeship in a engineering shop, I learned milling etc 54 years ago! when one had to make adjustments manually! I have never learned CNC. (LOL)


Feb 8

to LandRoverGuy
She's a Series IIA from 1965.

Shifting into reverse isn't great. If I know I have to back out of a parking spot I'll usually leave it in reverse when I shut the truck off.

The last time I had a good look at the prop shaft was about three years ago, but I put less than 1000 miles on her since then.

I would love to bring you the transmission, but I'm not sure I have the resources to pull it out by myself. Driving the truck up there would probably take me about 12 hours. Chelmsford isn't much closer.

I learned machining on a Bridgeport built some time in the '50s and a LeBlonde lathe that wasn't much newer. These days I run a 100 ton press brake with a CnC system so basic it might as well be manual.


Feb 8

to me
Running a press brake, great for making Land Rover repair parts! I have a couple of pieces of angle iron and a vice I use as a bender!

Sounds like you need a rebuilt of your trannie. 2A has the 25 mm front bearing
Nothing particularly technical about taking out the trannie, just lots nuts and bolts, taking out the floor and the seat box etc. can be time consuming due to corroded fasteners. I you are looking at someone to do it for you, I imagine you are talking big money at $70 an hour.

Let me know if i can help further.

LandRoverGuy



Feb 8

to LandRoverGuy
More like $85-100 an hour, here in Jersey.

I have a few acquaintances in the area who are pretty experienced wrenchers, but really only with American or Japanese cars. Is the Series Land Rover gearbox similar enough that I could get them to help me with it? Or, more accurately, get them to let me hand them tools and hold the flashlight?


Feb 8

to me
The series gearbox is similar in operation to most other 4 speed boxes, knowing the specific parts helps, but any competent wrencher should manage. Removal is simple, but a lot of parts involved, taking out the floor and seat box etc. You can buy some wrenches / sockets called Metrinch that will fit the Whitworth and the US threads as well as Metric, Most of the nuts / bolts are whitworth so your american wrenches are no good,

LandRoverGuy

[o2batsea]

Doesn't seem like there's anything wrong at all with the transmission. From your description it is behaving like a typical 2A trans. The problem is with the device located between your ears. You can't downshift into first without double declutching, and same for shifting up from first to second. As you know there is no synchro on 1st gear on a 2A, so it requires a different technique than a modern truck. You have to clutch to take it out of (presumably 2nd) and clutch in again to get it into 1st, but at the same time match engine speed to road speed so that the trans "snicks" into gear. It's a thing you get by feel.
Second, be sure that the clutch linkage is adjusted properly. The details of this operation are available by downloading the pdf repair manual. You can do it with an adjustable wrench. You might also try bleeding the clutch to be sure that you don't have any air in there.

PS if you need to swap transmissions, Charles Galpin has a perfectly fine 2A trans sitting in the garage (along with pretty much everything from radiator to rear axle) near Dulles airport. He would let it all go for cheap. He took it out of the 2A 109 pickup he got from the old East Coast Rover boneyard that he's making into a coil conversion EV. Engine trans transfer case, drive shafts axles brakes....

[Contractor]

I kinda agree with Bill.

What you are describing sounds like someone trying to shift a IIA box without double clutching. As for first and reverse.......try slipping it into 3rd or 4th first before 1st or R from a dead stop.

If you are doing all of this, then it does sound like there is a problem.

[Artificer]

I kinda agree with Bill.

What you are describing sounds like someone trying to shift a IIA box without double clutching.

That's more or less what my father said, but the problem has only arisen in the past year or so. I'd be the first to admit if I was double clutching wrong; nobody ever taught me how, I just kinda had to figure it out myself.

[SafeAirOne]

A) What's your technique for double clutching?

B) Presuming you are shifting properly, I would closely examine the slave piston rod adjustment and stroke, then examine that Rube Goldberg contraption of linkages that actuates the clutch throw mechanism to make sure the whole setup is tight, with no backlash or slop. Every individual bit of slop in each linkage joint is a loss of movement toward disengaging the clutch. If the clutch can't FULLY disengage, you'll have great difficulty getting it into gear and shifting between gears, much as you describe.

[Artificer]

A) What's your technique for double clutching?

In gear, depress the clutch. Shift out of gear. Depress the clutch, shift to new gear. I do my best to estimate and match the correct RPM so it will slip in, but it never seems to work. I am fully willing to admit I might be botching it somehow.

B) Presuming you are shifting properly, I would closely examine the slave piston rod adjustment and stroke, then examine that Rube Goldberg contraption of linkages that actuates the clutch throw mechanism to make sure the whole setup is tight, with no backlash or slop. Every individual bit of slop in each linkage joint is a loss of movement toward disengaging the clutch. If the clutch can't FULLY disengage, you'll have great difficulty getting it into gear and shifting between gears, much as you describe.

This is the first bit of actionable advice I've gotten on the subject that doesn't entail ripping out the gearbox, or just say "you must be doing it wrong." I like you already.

I know the slave cylinder itself is good, but I never knew to check the stroke. Didn't know it could be adjusted. Every other damn thing on the truck can be adjusted, so I don't know why it didn't occur to me. I'll check to see if I can adjust it. It's got a later model slave cylinder so according to the Haynes book it's self adjusting. Whatever that means.

By clutch throw mechanism, do you mean the throwout bearing? That's the only related term I could find in the books.

[SafeAirOne]

This is the first bit of actionable advice I've gotten on the subject that doesn't entail ripping out the gearbox

Start with the cheap and easy stuff and work your way to the expensive, PITA stuff. The cheapest and easiest would be if you haven't previously been double-clutching, but I suspect that's not it.

In gear, depress the clutch. Shift out of gear. Depress the clutch, shift to new gear.

Hopefully there's a "release the clutch" between the "Shift out of gear." and the "Depress clutch, shift to a new gear."

I know the slave cylinder itself is good, but I never knew to check the stroke. Didn't know it could be adjusted. Every other damn thing on the truck can be adjusted, so I don't know why it didn't occur to me. I'll check to see if I can adjust it.

Well...let me clarify. The stroke of the slave is related to the amount of fluid being supplied by the clutch master cylinder. If the master is not forcing enough fluid down the line for whatever reason (air in lines, improperly adjusted master piston rod, leaking piston seal, etc...), the slave obviously won't be able to fully extend. Similarly, if the master IS supplying enough fluid but the slave is not adjusted properly, movement of the piston will be wasted taking up slack that should have been adjusted out of the slave piston rod.

By clutch throw mechanism, do you mean the throwout bearing? That's the only related term I could find in the books.

No, in that context I'm referring to the component(s) on the inside of the bellhousing that disengage the clutch, and suggesting that you specifically examine all the bushings and mechanical connections between that little bit of the mechanism that sticks out of the side of the bellhousing all the way up to the clutch slave. Have somebody slightly depress and release the clutch pedal while you observe all the linkages down there looking for "lost movement" due to sloppy/worn connections.

I'd post a pic from the book regarding that, but I don't have a SII/IIA workshop manual. The factory workshop manual does a pretty good job of describing the correct adjustment for the clutch master, clutch pedal and clutch slave so as to minimize wasted action of the components.

[uncbsba]

Artificer- Any luck figuring out your shifting issue? Sounds very similar to what I am experiencing on a Series III I just took ownership of. The shifter is sloppy and loose, first gear seems fine, second shudders and lunges, third and fourth seem fine while upshifting. It has popped out of gear a few times while driving in various gears. Would be very interested to hear what you found out.

Thanks,
Jason