Terminology - Sound like you know somwthing

[jimrr]

well, .......... the guy who doesn't spend any thing on his rover is probably called .......RICH !!!!
the other one who tries to make a buck by subterfuge is probably called something best left out of print!
the first Rover owner is probably a average guy, I don't consider myself a concurs restoration specialist by any means but i do try to keep stuff like it was made ..... i don't think there is a lot of room for improvement on these rigs.
I benifit from reading here of other avenues of parts procurement.

[vlad_d]

"Fender Flies" - these are people who appear, almost magically like flies, whenever you pop the hood of your classic car and try to fix something on it in public. They can be seen buzzing around and spontaneously telling you stories about their car adventures when you're trying to get your car back on the road.

This might be a Socal thing. But I'm sure broken down Land Rovers draw a crowd, too.

[vlad_d]

Another serious one...

BSW - This stands for "British Standard Whitwortb" and its a thread standard like SAE and Metric bolts and nuts. I'm sure you Rover fans have encountered plenty of these, but it was news to a new Rover owner like me.

BSF - This stands for "British Standard Fine" thread. I was wondering why my American hardware store didn't stock a 7/16th" -18 tpi thread chaser tap and everyone on Amazon was trying to sell me either 20 tpi or 14 tpi. Turns out the bolt was BSF, at 18. Now I know...

[roverp480]

BSF and BSW both have Whitworth thread forms. The flank angle is 55 degrees whereas SAE ,Unified and Metric are 60 degrees . Also the root and crest of the thread is radiused whereas the Unified and Metric mail threads are flat . Another thread you may not have come across is BA ( British Association) and are numbered 0 to 12 , 12 being the smallest. 2BA is used on earlier Land Rovers for fixing the instrument panel and similar uses. cable clips, lighting etc.
Wrenches for Whitworth nuts and bolts are marked with the thread size , not the across flats sizes .So a 1/4 BSF wrench fits a nut with a 1/4 dia thread, not one with 1/4" across the flats hexagon . The same applies to BA wrenches , a 2BA spanner fits a 2BA nut

[vlad_d]

Seriously...I love my Series Rover, it's a classic and I get people come up to me and say they love it too. But...the fact that you have to have 3 to 4 different wrench and sockets sets to work on it is madness. What purpose can that have for a vehicle that is supposed to spend most of it's time in rough country. Lets make it more complicated and require 4 sets of sockets, spanners, wrenches, ratchets, etc. Whoever you are...you have to agree...some engineers or machinists back at Sollihul made some mistakes with that.

Or was that a "plan"? Oh...you can't just WORK on it. You have to be a certified Land Rover mechanic...with 4 sets of each tool...real specialist $$$$. Bring it on in to the dealership! We'll take care of you!

[roverp480]

I am a retired Rover/Land Rover Cost engineer here in the UK and am well aware of all the vagaries of fixing on the old Land Rovers. The trouble is that the vehicle evolved in the 1940's using lots of parts which have their roots in the 1930's when BSF/BSW was the standard in the UK . When the Series 2 Land Rover was designed in the 1950's all the new fixings changed to what are referred to as Unified fixings ie UNF/UNC which basically copied the SAE standard. So most loose body fixing and the engine changed to unified threads , but the gearbox and axles stayed Whitworth . Gradually in the IIA era more parts, as they were modified, changed, to Unified threads . Towards the end of the S3 there was a move to go Metric as that was becoming the world standard . The 5 bearing crank 2.25 litre engine was one of the first , but you still had a mix of parts using Whitworth and Unified threads . The issue is exacerbated by budgets, or more accurately by lack of budgets! A new model programme using existing parts wont budget to change anything on them and and manufacturing wont have a budget either.
I came across exactly this at Ford when they owned LR . We were looking to use a Modified Ford Explorer front hub assembly on the LR3, which actually was made for Ford by Bosch in Clarkesville TN . We visited Dearborn and Clarkesville to see for ourselves and noted the wheel fixing were still inch sizes when the Ford World Standard was metric and Rover had gone metric 20 years previously. When we asked why this was the case the Ford design engineer explained that over the years they had tried to move to metric but the production lines made more than one model & the production engineers didn't want different but similar wheel nuts on different models due to the risk of a dangerous mix up. . The new model team would not pay for the work to change the existing model and the existing model team had no budget either , so inch fixing kept being retained, even then the rest of the hub was metric .
When you have an all new model, at an all new plant, you don't get these issues . That is one reason in the UK and probably the US, that Japanese companies, setting up on a green field site have an advantage over the established manufacturers.

[jimrr]

thanks p80, I like reading the "nuts & bolts" of a issue!

[mearstrae]

Once you understand that vehicles are designed by engineers but built by accountants all is clear. Engineer: "That assembly requires a 10mm cap screw." Accountant: "I think a 8mm screw will do." It all comes down to the 'Bottom Line'. On the main subject, lets not get down to Morse Tapers and Acme Threads.

[vlad_d]

@Roverp80: I can totally see it now! That makes so much sense, and is very relatable to other fields, too (happens at my work every day!). I actually can't describe to "non car people" how much of a shell game car manufacturing must be...with all the suppliers and vendors, etc. Each year, the major car manufacturers just redesign the fenders, lights and some plastic bits...but it's the same car as the last 5 years. Or even the same car as a sister company sells, but with different logo. It's funny going to the parts store and haggling with the guys behind the counter:

Parts guy: "My computer says we don't have a part for that car!"
Me: "You have it, just bring it out. Ever wonder why you have 10 boxes back there, but 500 car makes in the computer?"
Parts guy :"..."

@Jimr: I see what you did there

[mearstrae]

I think we can all relate to the parts store 'Expert' and his computer. Customer: "What do you mean you don't have that part and can't get it?" Parts Expert: "Give me a break, I worked at Mc D's last week!" Many a time I have had to translate for a Parts Expert to get what I needed. I've even gone behind the counter to show them the part they didn't have. One guy said, "If you're going to do that, why don't we just put all the parts out on the floor?" Yes, why don't you?

[roverp480]

I think we can all relate to the parts store 'Expert' and his computer. Customer: "What do you mean you don't have that part and can't get it?" Parts Expert: "Give me a break, I worked at Mc D's last week!" Many a time I have had to translate for a Parts Expert to get what I needed. I've even gone behind the counter to show them the part they didn't have. One guy said, "If you're going to do that, why don't we just put all the parts out on the floor?" Yes, why don't you?

When British Leyland came about in the early 1970's , my local Triumph Dealer and the Local Rover Dealer joined forces and put all the parts for both marques in one new parts store and all the staff together as well , which meant I was often served by the ex triumph staff when getting parts and I initially had to point out which parts book to check and how to differentiate between the different models or design changes etc etc. This was well before computers and indeed Microfiche. One storeman did comment to me that he had noticed that when Land Rover owners came in for parts they knew exactly what they needed, and exactly what vehicle they had ,and would soon point out if he had picked the wrong item. there as the Triumph owners often didn't know what model or variant. they owned.

[jimrr]

@Roverp80: I can totally see it now! That makes so much sense, and is very relatable to other fields, too (happens at my work every day!). I actually can't describe to "non car people" how much of a shell game car manufacturing must be...with all the suppliers and vendors, etc. Each year, the major car manufacturers just redesign the fenders, lights and some plastic bits...but it's the same car as the last 5 years. Or even the same car as a sister company sells, but with different logo. It's funny going to the parts store and haggling with the guys behind the counter:

Parts guy: "My computer says we don't have a part for that car!"
Me: "You have it, just bring it out. Ever wonder why you have 10 boxes back there, but 500 car makes in the computer?"
Parts guy :"..."

@Jimr: I see what you did there

sorry vlad, i don't get it, or if i did something what it was........... i'm clueless.

[vlad_d]

@jimr: "Nuts and bolts"...like, "the details"... but we were also actually talking about nuts and bolts. So, it's doubly appropriate. Heh...it's no fun if you have to explain it. Just take credit. It was good.