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Thread: first Land Rover????

  1. #21
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Aurora ON.CA
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    11

    Default 24v-12v conversion

    Gregor-
    Greetings from the far north - an excellent suggestion to use a 24 ->12 conversion, this way I could keep the 24V setup and as the various electrical devices go up in smoke - replace with 12V where feasible. Except, I cannot seem to find such a device. If a circuit diagram were available, one could be constructed as a solid state unit. Meanwhile, can you give me the torque figure for the diff pinion nut? The u-jt on the rear prop is done for; it would appear no grease has been injected for 100 years, the vibe has loosened the diff yoke!

    The figure for the older diff is 85. In my obsolete parts book, the exploded view of the Salisbury axle shows what looks as if it could be a collapsable spacer, but it is only identified in the tabulation as a spacer. Since there are shims present, it may be a non-collapsable. Can you clarify? (# 607197 )

    Thanks, David

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Phoenix AZ
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    1,358

    Default

    David,
    Check this thread for advice on the converter.
    http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1180

    85 lbsft is right for the pinion nut. To help tighten this I made up an anti rotation tool. It sounds expensive but is simply a piece of 1/8' X 4" x approx 3' steel strip with a half moon cut out to clear the pinion nut and a couple of slotted holes the same as the flange spacing. Bolt it to the flange and when removing or tightening the nut the strip will stop against either the ground or the chassis making it easy to tighten the nut.

    There is a collapsible spacer and it will need to be replaced (It should be any time the pinion nut is removed.) You will also need a new pinion seal. I would get two of each to allow for 'experimental error' on the install. They are cheap and it doesn't hurt to have a spare. I am not sure about the later Salisburies but IIRC the DANA 60 went to using shims instead of the spacer.

    If you have to replace the rear prop I would look into the heavy duty GKN items. I would need to look up sdome info for the numbers but they can be had for about the same price as the stock ones and are considered a good upgrade.

    Our hosts should be able to supply but if not I have found Bill at GBR to be very good as he is also a 101 enthusiast.

    Cheers
    Gregor

  3. #23
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    14

    Default A 101 was my first and I love it

    I know I am biased in favor of the 101 since i own one, but I feel that Jim has given some very sound advice. I too saw the work that Jim,Mike, and Bruce have done on the "Orange Elephant" and it was extensive. How about full paint and chassis strip, POR 15, new engine, full external cage, Hot H20 shower etc. I drive mine everday and love it. My biggest regret is that I did not buy one in better condition to begin with.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Aurora ON.CA
    Posts
    11

    Default

    Gregor:
    Thank you for the info re the diff. I should have the tool you described (if I can find it ) left over from the days when L/R was a full time thing. I am reserving judgement on the prop shaft until I can drive the vehicle. It seems ok, but a cfm is in order. I have removed the spk plugs. They are gapped at .035 . My spec sheet says .025 for the 24V. Who had it right?
    It was interesting to read the many comments re the 24V-12V voltage reduction. The use of diodes and a heat sink etc. would be the way I would expect a "solid state" device to be constructed, but finding the components around here will get you a little more than a "peculiar look" and the question what do you want that for? Will try the address provided by Sheldon. If one examines the principle by which a charging system works, it is obvious that tapping one of the 12's is not going to work unless you have a shed full of batteries.
    David

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Phoenix AZ
    Posts
    1,358

    Default

    David,
    .035 sounds like it used the 12V set up. .025 would make sense although I don’t have my manuals here to check it.

    A simple explanation.:
    The ignition system is designed to make a spark at a set time relative to piston motion in order to initiate combustion. The timing of this spark is controlled by the position of the dizzy and its amperage. (Ability to build potential on the plug electrode.) If you still run points then there are some other factors such as points gap and dwell that have an effect. The spark will jump the gap when the potential exceeds the dielectric (Air gap). This potential has to be rebuilt every two engine revolutions in a 4 stroke cycle. The amperage of the dizzy dictates how quickly the potential can be built. A 24V system has lower amperage than a 12V so takes longer. In order to have the spark jump at the right time you close the gap so that less potential is required. I am no expert on combustion but it is my understanding that it is spark intensity and not size that is the important thing so the actual gap being reduced does not less performance. Someone will no doubt chime in with more detail/better explanation.

    Having said all that if it is working and emissions are good I wouldn't mess with it. The last 5 minute tune up I did turned into a 1 1/2 year rebuild. Damn the shipfitter's disease. Still it does mean that I have her stripped down to the roll hoop and spare while I bed the engine in. The 101 is the most fun convertible I've ever driven.

    The beauty of converting to a 12V system is that you can ditch the points and ballast resistor and replace them with an electronic ignition and sport coil. I say this only because I have not seen a 24V equivalent. This gives an almost maintenance free system (rotor and cap occasionally) with a more consistent spark as there is no mechanical wear/adjustment in the points. In theory you will have a faster ramping system with the ability to develop more potential in a shorter time thus allowing you to increase the air gap for a fatter spark and higher performance. In reality we are driving an army truck so any gain here most likely is not noticeable. I keep mine at the stock setting.

    Contrary to some opinions electronic ignition is reliable. There is some infant mortality due to manufacturing errors but, generally, if it works in the beginning it will work for a long time. For justification, look at the number of posts regarding issues with points ignition vs electronic.

    Cheers
    Gregor

  6. #26
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Aurora ON.CA
    Posts
    11

    Default

    Gregor

    Thanks for the tech explanation. Very interesting. I am wondering if it is feasible to use a 24 - 12 V converter for ignition. There is a formula which I have lost long ago. I would like to "ditch" the breaker points, they were definitely a problem. Most likely the best solution is to do this simultaneously with the full conv to 12V. I removed the plugs to check their condition and look for telltale signs of head problems. The carbs were in sad shape - I had the feeling they were being removed for the first time since assembly at new. The air filter is a dinosaur - looks like something from a tractor.
    I saw a 12-24V convertor on the net with a capacity of 700 watts for $99. Am wondering about the capacity of the black box described by Erin. The device described by Pieco appears to be the easiest way to go, although I would need to know the design of the heat sink.
    What did you find of significance when you stripped your engine? I have cracked exhaust manifolds - same area both sides.
    TTLY
    David

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Phoenix AZ
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    1,358

    Default

    The significant things I found on my engine strip were:
    • The cam was almost round. The truck ran well enough and I had not noticed the performance dropping but that's because it was a very gradual thing over time. The faces of the tappets were fatigued as well. It still sounded fine but the entire valve train was shot.
      The main and big end bearings were shot with the copper colour showing.
      The cylinder bores were smooth with just a slight lip. I had them bored .020 over and honed.
      The valve seats were pretty worn but were easily brought back up to snuff by the machine shop. The valves themselves were good although the inlets did have a significant amount of encrustation although this was probably due to the worn cam preventing correct breathing.
    • The timing chain looked OK but I replaced it with a JP set anyway as I was going that deep.
    • I have not cracked the manifolds yet. I put in the dicsovery metal exhaust manifold gaskets which seal well, used the funny metal tabs on the bolts and made sure I use the correct torque. It has been successful so far.
    • My carbs were fine beacuse I have been in there before several times as I have to pass emissions in Phoenix.
    • The radiator was pretty much shot with signs of leakage along the bottom where the tubes meet the header tanks. I had had problem with cooling in the summer (It DOES get to 118F) so pulled it and had it recored. It cools very well now.
    • The radiator bottom hoses were completely shot. They were swollen and had fine cracks all over. I don't think they would have made another summer.
    • The fuel filters were not bad at all for the age of the vehcile. I have since had to replace them twice in one tank full due to buying 13 gallons of fuel with a special on 2 gallons of silt.
    • The head gaskets (tin type) did not appear to be leaking but there might have been a little evidence of blowby into the valley. When I rebuilt her I used composite gaskets (Skimmed the heads to maintain compression) and left off the outer row of head bolts per the advice of several of the UK specialists.
    That's about it. Incidently I checked the manual at the weekend and the spark gap is the same for vboth 12V & 24V at .025" so some of my first prargraph of explanation was wrong. The principle of operation, however, is correct. The more modern plugs have some advances such as copper electrodes etc. which allow for better performace. The comment about the electronic ignition is still true.

    Cheers
    Gregor
    Last edited by greenmeanie; 06-04-2007 at 10:26 AM.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Aurora ON.CA
    Posts
    11

    Default 5 minute tune up

    Gregor -

    Your 5 minute tune-up was extensive! This is excellent info - gives me an insight into what to look for and/or expect. Can you tell me how many miles (or kilometers) were on your "clock" at the time? Am still sitting on the fence, but am leaning toward the conversion to 12V, which means more questions. Is this done piece meal (with ref to the ign system). Do I require a different distributer? Are those small (fuel) filter elements available as an after-market item? Am also wondering about the fuel (leaded or unleaded) intended for this engine. The cracked manifolds sometimes indicate this. I don't know exactly what year the fuel here became unleaded. My vehicle is a 77. You had mentioned emissions testing. I do not see any pollution controls or devices of any kind on the engine. What is the test based upon? The regulations here are different.
    Thanks
    David
    btw - due to the tech nature of some of my posts, and I am new to forums, should I have started a new thread or is posting here ok?

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Phoenix AZ
    Posts
    1,358

    Default

    David,
    You can start a new thread if you want to. It will make the stat numbers for the 101 forum look good. We're doing better than the Freelander girls and are catching up on the hybrid folk.

    Emissions law in Arizona suck as there is no rolling rule as in other states. I have to meet 4% CO and 350ppm HC from memory as my ’76 falls into the heavy duty class based on GVW. Fortunately because of the 4wd system they can only do an idle test. When the engine is in good nick this is not too hard to meet by good tuning of the carbs and a little tinkering with the timing. A wide band o2 afr meter was a good investment.

    Mileage is a little dubious as I have blown up three odometers over the span of my ownership. It could have also spent a long time idling/charging batteries during its military service. Most people reckon the cam is done by about 60K miles due to it being only surface hardened so I will put it about there.


    Conversion 24V to 12V
    These are the necessary parts to run a 12V ignition assuming you fit a converter.
    Part 12V part# 24V part #
    Coil Lucas or Pertronix 552605
    Distributor 614179 90613827
    Plug leads Use Magnecor for RR -
    Plugs Champion L92Y 90613465
    Advance Hose ERC2194 -
    Ignition Install electronic ignition from Pertronix.

    This is a list of the rest of the parts to be replaced for a full 12V conversion.
    Horn 623065 90623187
    Starter Motor 589816 589817
    Starter relay 589665 589687
    Battery
    Alternator AC Delco 10SI 547165
    Fuel tank gauge unit 579375 579324
    Alternator mounting bracket 614410 90613761
    Alternator support bracket 614159
    Drive belt 613020
    Fuel gauge 555835 560761
    Brake warning light 589189 589266
    Voltage stabilizer 559052 -
    Relay, auxiliary 30Amp automotive relay 90545020
    Relay, infrared Delete and wire round
    Indicator flasher unit 579353 597226
    Windscreen wiper motor RTC452 AAU1416
    Washer pump 589383 623091
    Heater blower motor Keep the 24V item as 12V is not available unless you convert to motor from MG sports car.

    Lights
    Headlamps Convert to civilian 7” sealed beam halogens
    Font side lamp GLB149
    Indicator GLB241
    Rear side/brake 529958
    Number plate lamp GLB227
    Instrument bulb GLB650
    Instrument bulb 575221
    Hazard light switch bulb 575221

    This list was compiled from a run through the parts book and does not take into account any modifications to your truck.

    Some observations and upgrades.

    • For a starter it is easier to get a late model RR/Disco unit which is smaller and provides more torque. If you feel rich get a Mean Green unit.
    • Convert to an AC Delco alternator as it is more powerful, cheaper and easily obtainable.
    • Wire round the infra red relay as it WILL burn out on a dark and wet night. It will probably be snowing as well.
    • Aux relays can be replaced with 30A 4 pin units from your local automotive store. Cheap and easily available.
    • The windscreen wipers can be made two speed by using the switch from a late (69-71) SIIA. I’ll see if I can dig out the part #.
    • The windscreen washer pump is nothing special and can be replaced with something from your local automotive store.
    • Magnecor leads are a great investment for a 12V system, are cheaper than buying the LR items and will last the lifetime of the truck.
    • I don’t have the part # for the Pertronix but anything that fits a RR classic should be good. I personally use a Newtronics optical unit but that was sourced in the UK. Using the Pertronix or LUCAS high output coils in conjunction with the electronic ignition allows you to get rid of the ballast resistor and condenser.
    • The harnesses, other than the alternator, are essentially the same.
    • Converting to civilian 3 pin connectors and sealed beam halogens will improve the night vision immeasurably. It also means you can pick up replacements from the local automotive shop. Other than the instrument bulbs all the others are available locally as well – I would need to pull the covers to get the numbers.
    • An alternate to using a LR dizzy is to use a GM HEI from an 80’s Buick V8. There are some fitment issues regarding interference with the intake manifold but once yer done its supposed to be a good conversion with cheap parts. If you want to know more I can put you in touch with the relevant owner.

    If you need help sourcing parts PM me and I will have a dig through my receipts. I would also price out a complete conversion before getting into design a converter. You may get a surprise.

    Cheers
    Gregor
    Buggerit the tab formating of the list didn't work!

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Phoenix AZ
    Posts
    1,358

    Default

    Oh, I forgot to say that putting an in-line fuse with a 15A rating in the fuel pump circuit is a good idea as the 35amp fuse in the fuse block is greater than the amp rating of the wire gauge used in the instrument harness. The result is that the white wire going from the molded connector in the footwell to the common point acts like a fuse and melts. unfortunately this takes out a lot of circuits due to the closely packed wires. I ended up building a new instrument harness which, although theraputic, was a pain. I just snipped the wire both sides of the molded ocnnector and ran it through an in-line fuse holder.

    I've looked at a few 101's and this seems to be a common failure.

    Cheers
    Gregor

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