Found One!

[NickDawson]

I think the point is that it was a rot box

Right now, thats a bit like poking me with a sharp stick

It very well may be true, but what we *saw* was something that looked like it was in good shape and ready to ride around town in during the weekends. The paint look good to me and the interior looked in good shape. Now, the fact that she's no longer selling may have everything to do with my "inspection clause" that might have turned up something big...

Still, saying it was a rot box does not do a thing to tell me what to look for in the next set of photos I see. I'm trying to be a more educated buyer, but need some specifics...

I saw welds on the seatbelt posts and one body patch - is it just the experience that teaches folks that either of those two things indicate a rusted out car?

I saw the rust around the transmission tunnel - might be reasonable to assume that it would extend to the toe wells ... but again, is it just experience that suggest that? What if they had been repaired well? Doesn't seem like a reason to rule out a truck, or am I missing something there?

[SafeAirOne]

Still, saying it was a rot box does not do a thing to tell me what to look for in the next set of photos I see.

You can't tell if it was a "rot box" by the photos. You know that there is some rust in typical places but you need to see it in person or have it inspected by a knowledgable individual to see the extent of any corrosion, in my opinion.

I saw the rust around the transmission tunnel - might be reasonable to assume that it would extend to the toe wells

The rust around the transmission tunnel isn't that kind of rust--It's galvanic or "dissimilar metal" corrosion, which occurs when metals of different electrical potential come together. The tunnel cover is aluminum and the bulkhead is steel. This type of corrosion can often be found on the outside bottoms of the doors (the inner doorframes are steel, the skin is aluminum), and on North-American series IIIs, the body sides above the rear wheels (where the steel seatbelt anchors are riveted to the rear tub). That's where the patch is on the right side on the rover in your photos.

The other kind of rust is just plain old iron oxide found on the pure steel parts like the inside doortops, the entire bulkhead (firewall) including footwells, the doorposts, and chassis (frame) and chassis outriggers and crossmembers.

[adkrover]

Sorry about the sharp stick. I suspect you're right that the seller may have had concerns about the inspection clause.

The thing is that a rover exterior is mostly aluminum which doesn't rust. Therefore, on the surface it is easy to make it look good with a fresh paint job. For some reason, whether it's a form of electrolysis caused by dissimilar metals (steel and aluminum) or just that rover used cheap steel I don't know but the steel rusts out very quickly once it gets started. If you can find ex military truck you may have better luck as the MOD coated the steel to prevent the rust. Otherwise, you need to look for a vehicle from the far south (not near the coast as salt spray is bad) or the desert. If a rover has visible rust on the interior door structure, that's a pretty good sign that there is more to come.

I work on houses and have always found that it is better to purchase a house with a solid foundation and good framing that may need to be gutted and have all of it's mechanicals done over than to get a house that someone has spent a great deal of time and money to put new paint, carpet, cabinets etc into but has 60 year old plumbing and is sinking into the ground. The reason is that to make the proper repairs, you will have to rip out all of that new carpet that you just paid for by purchasing the house.

If you want to have a nice rover that will last you for a long time and have a good resale value, you need to start with one that has a solid frame and good steel. Don't be distracted by clean body skin and shiny paint. They all have good body skins unless they are obviously dented and a new paint job is cheap. Then you can start to tackle all of the other issues that it may have like leaky gears and weak axles.

Someone else here suggested that it is better to purchase a truck with a galvanized frame and fresh bulkhead without a motor at all and I agree. There are lots of good used parts out there that you can trade for to build up your truck.

[Jeff Aronson]

Nick,

While I was writing this post, ADKRover posted very sage advice!

Land Rovers have different types of corrosion. The rust in steell we're all familiar with affects Rovers as it does on any old car. Generally speaking, rust begins inside and then extends outside. That's why frame rust is an issue; more often than not, the rust starts inside the frame box so that by the time you see it, it's no longer "surface rust." That's why you bring a hammer and screwdriver to the inspection. You're not trying to poke holes, but you are looking the see the extent of any rust.

Land Rover frames can be patched several times, and structural pieces like rear crossmembers and front "horns" can be purchased and welded in by a skilled welder. However, a rotting frame is hidden from view - often by a nice paint job on the body of the car.

The other steel pieces on the car are the bulkhead [firewall, toeboards, dash, windshield supports], the frames of the doors, the radiator panel ["breakfast'], and any plates riveted onto the alloy body to provide seat belt anchorages [seat box, rear tub of Series III's or aftermarket installations]. All of these are replaceable or repairable, but that will require time, money and skills - but it's all doable.

The other type of corrosion is galvanic, the result chemical action between dissimilar metals. That can happen when steel bolts hold pieces of aluminum alloy together. That's another reason that you see through "rust" at the seat belt anchorage points - in addition to rusting because they're steel, those plates can suffer from corrosion because they're steel on aluminum.

The good news for you is that you're becoming far more sophisticated in assessing the condition of a possible purchase. Even if you don't plan on driving the car very much, you want to know its condition before purchase so you can determine how much you'll need to spend over time to keep the car in good shape. You WILL want to drive the car a lot more than you think - they're quite addictive.

What a lot of people here are urging is that you buy the best "platform" - frame, suspension, bulkhead - possible. The drivetrain is very durable and far easier for the conscientious, patient owner to learn how to maintain and repair than is the welding of a frame or bulkhead. I had my Rover for over 75,000 miles and several years before it got its first paint; in 18 years of ownership, it's only had paint jobs twice [both times because of accidents with wandering wild animals]. My second Land Rover has not been painted since its manufacture in 1966 - no one in the Land Rover community cares .

Keep searching and posting your finds. Everyone here wants you to enter the Land Rover community!

Jeff

[NickDawson]

Thanks SafeAirOne, adkrover, Jeff Aronson - those posts are VERY helpful!

I understand the galvanic reaction all too well (don't ask), and I knew that the bodies were Al and the frames steel - but I had no idea that there were other parts involved in the equation. Thats very good to know.

Here are some take aways and my reaction - am I on track?

• Pictures can't tell us much, but do hold clues. In this case, seeing galvanic corrosion spots suggests that there is a systemic problem.
• paint is pretty but pointless - I get that intrinsically...but I guess I need to ask this: anyone have a clue what a body shop charges to spray a rover? How much of the prep can I do (sanding, etc) to reduce the expense? I'm not saying that I'm entirely superficial...but realistically if I buy something with a great frame and get it looking real pretty, is that within my price range?
• Frames are key - I get that but still pretty sure I can't tell that without a first hand inspection from an expert. That rules out buying a truck on the west coast unless someone I trust (from this forum for instance) is available for inspection. Not ruling that out by any means, just part of the logistics to consider (along with shipping)
• drive train and engines are usually solid - good to know b/c I'm still firm on the criteria that it has to run well. I understand that engines might be cheap and available, but I'm just not capable out buying a frame and tub and putting a motor in and getting any enjoyment out of the truck this summer... too much for this novice

So here's the next challenge (I do have a day job, I promise)

Below are some pictures from a truck that is being touted as a straight, solid frame with a good motor but in need of serious body work. It comes from a name that a lot of folks around here would know/trust. Its in the $5.5K range, so assuming my budget doesn't grow (and in this economy, how could it?) I'm still fixed at $8K

1) I'm seeing nothing but rust - am I mistaken? Does this appear to be in good condition to anyone else?

2) is it reasonable to think that with my own elbow grease that my remaining $2.5K I can spruce it up? I've started some calculations based on the RN catalog, so I know what fancy upholstery costs, but the my nagging paint question is still out there... then I have to think about tires, tops, etc...but maybe those things wait a year or two.

3) for that matter - what would *you* do to it (assuming I'm wrong about #1)

4) general reactions (including the breather being off the engine and in the back)

The entire set:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdaw...7617516009384/

[NickDawson]

Am I learning anything?
I look at this one and see rusted foot wells as well as galvanic corrosion on doors. So that alone should tell me that its likely to have some deep seated rust issues elsewhere like the frame?

[Eric W S]

Solid huh?

First impressions from the pics attached:
1. Wiring needs to be sorted.
2. New fuel pump? Why? (Newer pumps can be problematic)
3. Dash is completely hacked up with a poorly done aux panel and a glove box? (Just poorly done overall; holes in the bulkhead could lead to rust)
4. Needs new seats (can get pricey and they are important; red looks terrible)
5. Springs are sagging (Solid huh? With rusted springs? It'll drive terrible)
6. Tie rod ends look old (It'll most likely steer like crap with old TRE; They are cheap and easy to replace so why haven't they been, it s a safety issue IMO)

After a quick look at the Flickr album, no real pics of the frame, Bulkhead or the drive train. Those are the only ones you need.

IMO, I'd offer no more than $2k for the truck. I wouldn't call that a solid truck by any means. It'll take 6k to get it to where you want it to be, without paint.

As far as paint, talk to body shops. There is no national average. I am having my 65 repainted panel by panel for around 4k. But that is stripped bare and brought to the body shop clean. Base/Clear. I was going to have a single coat done, but the price went up quite a bit.

[NickDawson]

Solid huh?


IMO, I'd offer no more than $2k for the truck. I wouldn't call that a solid truck by any means. It'll take 6k to get it to where you want it to be, without paint.

Thanks - that was my first reaction as well...a total mess.
I just needed to make sure I was on the right track... regardless of what the frame looks like, that appears to be a total nightmare.

That said - its also starting to confirm the $12+K price range I am seeing for decent trucks (IE "restorations" )

[leafsprung]

Im going to say there isnt enough in terms of pictures to evaluate that truck, no good footwell or frame shots, no overall shots. Some shots of mostly meaningless detail. All the issues you can see are relatively minor considering the price. Does need a new suspension though. In general I like it better than the red one, but that could change with pics. There is a series three 88 in WA for 6K, wagon with a galv frame and new bulkhead. Might be ok. Its on craigslist, might be a good one to look over. I also have a 1966 3 door 109 with no rust issues or previous rust repairs in your price range. There are plenty of good trucks under 7K. Seriously. You havent even scratched the surface of the resources available to you.

[Clembs]

man that looks like a dog, or at least should be around 2,000-2,500. I bought mine this time last year for 4,000 and the guy was going to take 3,200. Mine needed shocks and springs but it had a RN galv frame and very good body just had been in a field so it needed a good detail. Take a look at my pics (if they show up). I have 6,000 total in mine and that is with new wheels and tires, rocky Mt. parabollic springs and Old man emu shocks, new exhaust, and a bumch of other stuff. I live in va/ nc and you can find them all over if you look.