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View Full Version : Fire, Garage Drains, Etc.: A Public Service Announcement



Rineheitzgabot
11-01-2010, 01:44 PM
Below is a narrative of an accident I had while working on my Series. I guess it got behind me, and I forgot about until I read Nick Dawson's thread this morning about his leak on his fuel tank. Forgive me for the length, as I have a tendency to ramble...

While working on my '69, I punctured the fuel tank slightly. Really, I accidentally pushed against while trying to remove something else, and the resulting torque separated the laminates, creating a leak. The next day came around, and I decided to tackle the repair sooner rather than later.

I needed to drain the fuel tank. I was going to drain the rest of the fuel in the tank (I estimated it at about 2 gallons left) into a gas can. I positioned a funnel in the opening of the gas can, an gently loosened the drain plug. After completely removing the drain plug, it became clear to me that the fuel was rushing out faster than I would like. As I began to think of putting the drain plug back in, the funnel filled up and began spilling over the side, resulting in the funnel falling over and spilling all of the gas in the funnel onto the garage floor. Adrenaline flowing, I grabbed the drain plug and twisted back on as fast as I could, gas flowing all over until it was all the way closed (it was mostly closed, and there were a few drips, but waaaay better than it just was). All said and done, it was almost a gallon of gas that spilled onto the garage floor, creating a puddle about 4 feet in diameter.

I was worried, but not panicked. For the sake of safety, I thought, I would go get one of the fire extinguishers in my garage, and have it handy, in case something happened while I cleaned up the gas. I went for the large extinguisher and as I grabbed it, I noticed that the gauge read "Needs Re-charged". I sat it down, still thinking at this point that I probably wouldn't need one anyway. I turned to get the other extinguisher located even closer to me, when I heard the ominous sound that gas makes when it is ignited. I turned to look and saw that the 4-foot diameter puddle of gas, was now a puddle of fire standing about a foot off of the ground. Still trying not to panic, I tried to employ all of my fire extinuisher training that I have ever learned. I aimed it, squeezed, and nothing came out. I tried it several times, it failed me. I grabbed the other one again, and aimed and squeezed, nothing. Again, trying it several times to make certain that I hadn't accidentally left the cotter pin in it or something. Now, I'm panicked.

My wife comes home from the grocery and opens the garage door at about this time to find her husband running around throwing fire extinguishers, and knocking over ladders in the quest to find a way to put the fire out. This 4-foot puddle of terror was directly below my truck, and worse than that, was directly below the gas tank (which still had another gallon of gas in it). My wife ran in the garage and asked if she should call the fire department. I screamed yes, and to hurry,

I unravelled the hose in my garage and turned on the faucet. It "pee'd" water. I was furious. There must have been a kink in the hose somewhere. I needed gushing water, not peeing water. I wrestled with the hose, and got more water to flow. I aimed it at the flames, and got the fire tamed abit, but not all the way out. It would not stop. I noticed that the drain plug was not completely tight, and gas was still leaking, and flaming like a molotov cocktail. At this point, I truly thought that I would not be able to put the fire out, the gas tank would ignite, and I began to think that running was the only solution. I shoved the hose in the fill tube for the gas tank, and by this time the water was gushing. I was hoping to extinguish any fire in the tank, and turn the gas into water leaking out the bottom. I figured the fuel source of the fire would burn out eventually.

Somehow, I put it out. I probably should have run, but I am certain that the damage would have been much worse. By this time, the FWFD had showed up, and were exiting the monsterous red vehicle. I told them the story, heart pounding, vision blurred. They looked around, asked several questions, and left. Now all was better (it was not well, since I thought I would need a good de-fibb to get my heart going again, but it was better).

One of the things the firemen told me to do, and I thought was perfect advice, was to douse the garage floor with water, and flush the garage drain. As environmentally unfriendly as it is, I felt a little relieved that I had a place to flush this stuff, as it had already drained there anyway. I ran the hose for almost an hour; rinsing the floor around the accident, and wherever I thought there might still be gasoline. Possibly twenty gallons of water were used during this period. At one point, I thought I heard the sound of gasoline being ignited again, and I was terrified for an instant. It must have been one of the car parts I have resting up against the wall or something.

After all of the water spraying in the garage, I went to the basement to get the de-humidifier to bring to the garage to dry the garage well. I opened the basement door to the smell of smoke. Confused, I thought for an instant that it was residual smoke from the brief fire in the garage. As I descended the stairs, I found dense smoke in the back room and smelled badly of gasoline. I ran to the sump, not really knowing what to look for, and found that all of the PVC plumbing (sump pump, drain pipes, etc) were black and melted. Ding ding. Round 2. Hair standing up on back of neck...

I ran to the phone and called 911. I thought there might be fire in my walls or something. The FWFD showed up again, and they were perplexed as well. After about an hour of discussion, we decided that the following is probably what happened:

The drain in my garage is linked to my perimeter tile. I thought the garage drain went directly to the city sewer system, apparently not. Anyway, this gasoline-laced water made it's way around the perimeter of my property, and back to the drain sump in my basement. Evidently, the gasoline vapors are more dense than air, so they collected in the drain sump, and became pretty rich. After a few minutes they were ignited by the water heater, that sits about 18 inches from the sump in my basment. This is what I heard, when I was still in the garage, and I thought it was all over. The fire sat there and burned, unbeknownst to my wife or I or the firemen, until I went down and discovered the aftermath. Lucky I could call it aftermath. Lucky I didn't go down there to find a blazing fire from all the paper and wood products that miraculously didn't ignite.

Two possible lessons for anyone. Hopefully they are too obvious: 1) Keep up on your fire extinguisher maintenance. It's one of those things that always falls to the bottom of your list of priorities, since it seems like you never need it, but by God if you need it, it's the most important thing you can imagine at that moment. Not only should you make certain they are charged, but make sure you can get to them. Over the years, I had stored ladders and other things in front of them, that could have caused problems on top of them being in-op. 2) Be mindful of where your garage drain is plumbed (of course, if you have one). Any "hot" chemicals need to be dealt with differently than what I stated above.

I am very lucky to have an understanding wife. She didn't even hint at me selling the damn thing. I think she felt sorry for me more than anything else.

Hope this helps someone.

-Gary

RoverForm
11-01-2010, 01:56 PM
this is amazing. what a story. luckily it turned out without any bodily harm.

i have a question... do you know what ignited the puddle?

Wander
11-01-2010, 02:11 PM
Good advice!

When I had to dran my tank in order drop it to have it steamed and sealed I had the luck to think that running a syphon pump into the tank would be easier than the drain plug, plus I figured if the drain plug wasn't leaking-do not mess with it.

I'm going to check my extinguisers tonight!

SafeAirOne
11-01-2010, 03:09 PM
Similar thing happened at the airport where I work a few months ago. Defueling an aircraft in the hangar when the air compressor kicked on. Quite spectacular!



Pretty unusual to have the vapors just ignite under the rover...

Rineheitzgabot
11-01-2010, 03:26 PM
It all happened so fast, that I am not sure if my drop light, or the garage door opener motor (as I stated that my wife came home at about the same time), or static electricity ignited it.

Wander-- I think you are right about the drain plug, and finding a better way to remove the fuel. I guess my haste got the better of me...

I did not sleep a wink that night; kept thinking I was hearing the "whoof" sound again. All my smoke detectors, and extinguishers are in good working order now!

superstator
11-01-2010, 04:06 PM
Sounds like maybe the fire started in the basement from your sump, and flashed back up the drain to ignite the puddle on the floor.

A bucket of sand is a good thing to have in the shop - it never runs out on it's own, it's easy to recharge, and it'll put out just about anything. It won't replace a dry chem extinguisher, but its a good backup.

artpeck
11-01-2010, 04:17 PM
Scary stuff. Glad it turned out fine.

Reminded me of when I was a kid and one of the neighbor dads used a match to light up the inside of a gas tank he had pulled from a riding mower to see how badly rusted it was. Yes, you can imagine what happens when open flame meets just the right amount of gasoline evaporated in a closed space. No one was hurt but the tank blew apart impressively at the seams. Of course part of me being a 10 year old kid was thinking "cool, let's do that again".

Brian Holmes
11-01-2010, 05:27 PM
A real cautionary experience. I just bought a large extinguisher for the garage and a couple of smaller ones for the house.
A few years ago my wife was mowing the lawn with our lawn tractor when something got caught in a drive belt and the whole thing suddenly went up in smoke and flame. She jumped off and we ran to the other side of the house expecting it to blow up. It didn't because the plastic gas tank melted. We had it out by the time our rural fire dept arrived with three large pieces of appparatus! Luckily there was no other damage but the tractor was a total loss.
Cheeers,
Brian on Kootenay Lake

RoverForm
11-01-2010, 07:30 PM
since we're talking about extinguisers, i'm looking for one to have inside the rover, plus a couple for the garage and house.

i saw what they have at home depot, typical non industrial A B C tanks.

does anyone have any recs on a vehicle extinguiser and/or home and shop use?

farmerdave
11-02-2010, 12:19 AM
Whatever extinguisher you get, make sure its big enough to put out a decent fire. Also if you ever have to use one you have to shake them first to make sure the powder doesn't clog the nozzle when you first use it. I found this out the hard way when my 100 gallon aquarium went up in flames Christmas night at 3 in the morning.

amcordo
11-02-2010, 06:28 AM
So how did your wife react to all of this? Were there lasers coming from her eyes "because of that damned truck"?



Below is a narrative of an accident I had while working on my Series. I guess it got behind me, and I forgot about until I read Nick Dawson's thread this morning about his leak on his fuel tank. Forgive me for the length, as I have a tendency to ramble...

While working on my '69, I punctured the fuel tank slightly. Really, I accidentally pushed against while trying to remove something else, and the resulting torque separated the laminates, creating a leak. The next day came around, and I decided to tackle the repair sooner rather than later.

I needed to drain the fuel tank. I was going to drain the rest of the fuel in the tank (I estimated it at about 2 gallons left) into a gas can. I positioned a funnel in the opening of the gas can, an gently loosened the drain plug. After completely removing the drain plug, it became clear to me that the fuel was rushing out faster than I would like. As I began to think of putting the drain plug back in, the funnel filled up and began spilling over the side, resulting in the funnel falling over and spilling all of the gas in the funnel onto the garage floor. Adrenaline flowing, I grabbed the drain plug and twisted back on as fast as I could, gas flowing all over until it was all the way closed (it was mostly closed, and there were a few drips, but waaaay better than it just was). All said and done, it was almost a gallon of gas that spilled onto the garage floor, creating a puddle about 4 feet in diameter.

I was worried, but not panicked. For the sake of safety, I thought, I would go get one of the fire extinguishers in my garage, and have it handy, in case something happened while I cleaned up the gas. I went for the large extinguisher and as I grabbed it, I noticed that the gauge read "Needs Re-charged". I sat it down, still thinking at this point that I probably wouldn't need one anyway. I turned to get the other extinguisher located even closer to me, when I heard the ominous sound that gas makes when it is ignited. I turned to look and saw that the 4-foot diameter puddle of gas, was now a puddle of fire standing about a foot off of the ground. Still trying not to panic, I tried to employ all of my fire extinuisher training that I have ever learned. I aimed it, squeezed, and nothing came out. I tried it several times, it failed me. I grabbed the other one again, and aimed and squeezed, nothing. Again, trying it several times to make certain that I hadn't accidentally left the cotter pin in it or something. Now, I'm panicked.

My wife comes home from the grocery and opens the garage door at about this time to find her husband running around throwing fire extinguishers, and knocking over ladders in the quest to find a way to put the fire out. This 4-foot puddle of terror was directly below my truck, and worse than that, was directly below the gas tank (which still had another gallon of gas in it). My wife ran in the garage and asked if she should call the fire department. I screamed yes, and to hurry,

I unravelled the hose in my garage and turned on the faucet. It "pee'd" water. I was furious. There must have been a kink in the hose somewhere. I needed gushing water, not peeing water. I wrestled with the hose, and got more water to flow. I aimed it at the flames, and got the fire tamed abit, but not all the way out. It would not stop. I noticed that the drain plug was not completely tight, and gas was still leaking, and flaming like a molotov cocktail. At this point, I truly thought that I would not be able to put the fire out, the gas tank would ignite, and I began to think that running was the only solution. I shoved the hose in the fill tube for the gas tank, and by this time the water was gushing. I was hoping to extinguish any fire in the tank, and turn the gas into water leaking out the bottom. I figured the fuel source of the fire would burn out eventually.

Somehow, I put it out. I probably should have run, but I am certain that the damage would have been much worse. By this time, the FWFD had showed up, and were exiting the monsterous red vehicle. I told them the story, heart pounding, vision blurred. They looked around, asked several questions, and left. Now all was better (it was not well, since I thought I would need a good de-fibb to get my heart going again, but it was better).

One of the things the firemen told me to do, and I thought was perfect advice, was to douse the garage floor with water, and flush the garage drain. As environmentally unfriendly as it is, I felt a little relieved that I had a place to flush this stuff, as it had already drained there anyway. I ran the hose for almost an hour; rinsing the floor around the accident, and wherever I thought there might still be gasoline. Possibly twenty gallons of water were used during this period. At one point, I thought I heard the sound of gasoline being ignited again, and I was terrified for an instant. It must have been one of the car parts I have resting up against the wall or something.

After all of the water spraying in the garage, I went to the basement to get the de-humidifier to bring to the garage to dry the garage well. I opened the basement door to the smell of smoke. Confused, I thought for an instant that it was residual smoke from the brief fire in the garage. As I descended the stairs, I found dense smoke in the back room and smelled badly of gasoline. I ran to the sump, not really knowing what to look for, and found that all of the PVC plumbing (sump pump, drain pipes, etc) were black and melted. Ding ding. Round 2. Hair standing up on back of neck...

I ran to the phone and called 911. I thought there might be fire in my walls or something. The FWFD showed up again, and they were perplexed as well. After about an hour of discussion, we decided that the following is probably what happened:

The drain in my garage is linked to my perimeter tile. I thought the garage drain went directly to the city sewer system, apparently not. Anyway, this gasoline-laced water made it's way around the perimeter of my property, and back to the drain sump in my basement. Evidently, the gasoline vapors are more dense than air, so they collected in the drain sump, and became pretty rich. After a few minutes they were ignited by the water heater, that sits about 18 inches from the sump in my basment. This is what I heard, when I was still in the garage, and I thought it was all over. The fire sat there and burned, unbeknownst to my wife or I or the firemen, until I went down and discovered the aftermath. Lucky I could call it aftermath. Lucky I didn't go down there to find a blazing fire from all the paper and wood products that miraculously didn't ignite.

Two possible lessons for anyone. Hopefully they are too obvious: 1) Keep up on your fire extinguisher maintenance. It's one of those things that always falls to the bottom of your list of priorities, since it seems like you never need it, but by God if you need it, it's the most important thing you can imagine at that moment. Not only should you make certain they are charged, but make sure you can get to them. Over the years, I had stored ladders and other things in front of them, that could have caused problems on top of them being in-op. 2) Be mindful of where your garage drain is plumbed (of course, if you have one). Any "hot" chemicals need to be dealt with differently than what I stated above.

I am very lucky to have an understanding wife. She didn't even hint at me selling the damn thing. I think she felt sorry for me more than anything else.

Hope this helps someone.

-Gary

I Leak Oil
11-02-2010, 08:19 AM
Sounds like you're very lucky and I'm glad no one got hurt. I can't believe the fire dept. would recommend that you wash it down the drain!

Rineheitzgabot
11-02-2010, 08:40 AM
Amcordo--as I stated, my wife was great. I couldn't believe she didn't say to me, what you suggested. I am lucky that way.


ILeakOIL-- I cannot blame the fire department. I totally agreed with them about the garage drain. Also, in our area, most drainage like this at residences, are plumbed right to the city sewer, so their thinking was good. However, since I have told people this story, I have heard of other horror stories of people actually having PVC running from their garage drain to the sump, and plumbing right through the house! One story, a guy did almost the exact-same thing, but his PVC caught fire inside his walls!! :eek: I am lucky nothing like that happened.

RoverForm
11-02-2010, 11:00 AM
after reading rine's post, i went to harbor frieght last night and picked up one of these to keep inside the truck:

http://www.harborfreight.com/2-lb-fire-extinguisher-silver-97823.html

going to get a couple larger ones for the garage and house.

73series88
11-02-2010, 11:13 AM
yeh i have one in the rover but none in the garage.
think i'll pickup a couple of larger ones
thanks
aaron

Tsmith
11-02-2010, 05:10 PM
I've never heard of anyone complaining that the fire extinguisher was too large or there were too many.

I had a small ABC unit in the car and used it to put out an underhood fire of another car on a rally. It did the job, but the fire started again a few minutes later and my extinguisher was spent. Another car stopped and saved the car. Others here with fire fighting experience may know better, but the number before the "BC" is the size, in square feet that the extinguisher is rated for. The "A" number is the volume of the stuff inside.

Bigger is better.

RoverForm
11-03-2010, 12:54 PM
so i'm trying to find a good place to put the extinguisher. i'm somewhat of a purist (or at least i think i am) so i hate to drill new holes anywhere on the vehicle. anyone have input on where/how to mount the extinguisher in the cab?

here's what i'm thinking...

daveb
11-03-2010, 01:40 PM
Thanks for the cautionary tale. Although having one or more ABC extinguishers handy should be common practice for anyone involved in our hobby. For one, I NEVER do anything involving fuel tank removal inside a garage or any other structure. That needs to be done outside where the resulting potential damage will be minimized.

After spending $30 or more every time a non-rechargeable extinguisher loses its juice, I finally broke down and bought a larger one with all metal parts for a bit more money. When I took it to my local fire service shop (same place that fills my CO2 bottles) they explained that I could have bought one from them and that the refill/charge would have been free.

I have put out several vehicle fires with dry chem extinguishers, (both gasoline fires) and have been involved in several accidents or near accidents with gasoline. On Justin Fellenz's Unimog, we removed the drain plug from the tank with a NATO can and large funnel underneath. Sadly, the flow rate of the drain aperture was much greater than that of the funnel's neck, and the fuel was flung outward in a five foot diameter cone in the shape of the funnel. Justin was completely soaked in gasoline, and it was in his eyes, ears, nose, and mouth. He ran blindly into the house and jumped in the shower and was fortunately ok. This put a big downer on the keg party he was having since the Mog broke down in the middle of the back lawn while trying to use it as a platform to string "party" lights, and draining the tank was part of trying to get it going again.

On another occasion, I had an old Volvo that had a clogged fuel pipe. We put some air pressure on the tank to pump line, at the pump end. Nothing happened, so I stuck a 2 foot long tube into the tank filler opening to listen and see if I could hear the air bubbling up. I didn't, but suddenly I heard a loud rush of air and felt a geyser of fuel come up and around the tube and right into my ear and eyes. It hurt like a mother****er but ultimately there was no injury except to my pride. And that was some foul, old gas too.

Nowadays I still use the drain plugs, but I try to use a big 5 gallon paint bucket to catch the fuel. If there is no way to drain the tank, you can always use a jack to carefully lower it. Just make sure you have a good extinguisher nearby. That should be true anytime you are doing any hot work at all anywhere near a potentially combustible item.

For what it is worth, have also participated in the rebuild of a 109SW that went completely up in flames, and have had way too many other fires or near fires to think about. Last month there was a fire in my neighbors house, she was banging on my front door completely out of her wits at 6:50am, one of the other neighbors got there before I did and put it out. As it were, my home extinguisher was partially discharged and may not have been able to do the job. A week or two later, i was about to leave my house when I heard a strange sound coming from upstairs. The ceiling fan in the front bedroom was glowing inside the motor housing and sparks were getting flung by the fan blades out and onto the cotton bedsheets. It was winding down as it died but I hit the switch and the internal glowing part subsided. I now make it a rule to not leave things like that on when I'm not home.

Make sure you extinguishers are not only charged but also that they are up to date, the dry chemical ones need to be checked and or refilled every five years or so.

stomper
11-03-2010, 03:36 PM
As far as where to locate an extinguisher in the truck, Consider getting some strong velcro. I used this to mount mine to the back of the bulkhead, behind the seats, facing the rear of the truck. Now that I am sure I like it there, I will mount it permanently with a few bolts.

I saw a couple of rigs with them mounted in the rear of the truck, just behind the rear side windows, on the roof sides. I like this idea, as it is within reach, even when there is a lot of stuff in the rear of the truck, and also, if there is a fire, it will most likely be in the engine bay area. You can get away, grab the extinguisher, and then attack the fire. If there were flames coming from your gas tank, would you really want to reach in there to get the extinguisher where you have it mounted on the transmission tunnel?

siiirhd88
11-03-2010, 06:30 PM
The ABC of the extinguisher denotes the type of fire the extinguisher is rated for. Class A is generic burnables like paper, wood, and cloth. Class B is flammable liquids, gasoline, oil, etc. Class C is electrical fires, which become Class A (or possibly B, depending on wire insulation) once the circuit is deenergized. There are Class D extinguishers for flammable metals, but I have had varied success using them.

The ABC type is the typical home extinguisher. I keep several different types handy, including a pressurized water extinguisher which I feel works better on Class A fires that an ABC type.

Bob
'02 Disco II SD
'80 SIII 109
'75 SIII 88 V8
'68 SIIA 109 V8

RoverForm
11-03-2010, 09:52 PM
If there were flames coming from your gas tank, would you really want to reach in there to get the extinguisher where you have it mounted on the transmission tunnel?
i had it setting there to see how i liked it, instead i have set up on the bulkhead between the two front seats inside the cab. this way i can utilize the two bolts already drilled into the bulkhead instead of opening new holes.

the idea here is being able to grab it as you're exiting the truck instead of having to run around to the rear and then to the engine bay (or wherever).

i think for gas tank fires, i'd like to have my hands on something larger than a 2lb to extinguish it since they have an 8-12 second discharge time, and hopefully already have it next to me if i was doing maintenance/repairs.

but i understand your rationale.

disco2hse
11-04-2010, 12:07 AM
Agreeing with daveb here. I only ever remove petrol outside.

About the water. In a way you have been lucky that the hose only returned a dribble at first. Petrol is lighter than water and it could have spread the fire with dramatic results if you had squirted directly at the petrol puddle. Water will not extinguish petrol fires since it is the gas that is burning and not the petrol itself.

To extinguish petrol you need to either remove all the oxygen (CO2 type) or smother the petrol to prevent any more gas from being emitted (foam or powder type). The suggestion of sand is good in this regard since that can do the same thing, so too will a large fire blanket if you can fling it over the burn area without burning your self or splashing the petrol further.

luckyjoe
11-04-2010, 08:20 AM
Next time you have to drain a tank, use a siphon hose. There are several in-expensive products available. I use the hose for an outboard motor fuel tank with a priming bulb midway. This is all you need to start the flow - don't suck on it! I leave this in my 109 onboard tool kit

IMHO, the fuel tank drain plug is ONLY to get the last tiny bit of fuel out, or to allow flushing with water...

daveb
11-04-2010, 10:27 AM
all of the above comments are great. Like I said, I've been in too many actual fires and close calls to take this subject lightly.

The comments about the ABC ratings are right on. To add to that, the problem with using B and C type extinguishers is that they don't remove any residual heat from the area of the fire. My 109 caught fire (gasoline fire) while parked over a leaf pile, and though the ABC dry powder extinguisher was able to put it out, the leaves quickly reignited. I emptied a second extinguisher onto it at that point and then ran and got the hose from the house to douse the leaves.

Now I am happy to be running a diesel LR as the risk of fire is much less.

I have had my extinguishers mounted on the firewall underneath the dash, in between the seats on the center bulkhead, and also on the b-pillar. Anywhere you can reach it from the driving position, and undo the clamp with singlke motion, you should be good to go.

Les Parker
11-04-2010, 12:54 PM
Thanks to all for sharing your somewhat alarming stories.
A lesson we can all learn is that you cannot be to careful when working on vehicles, especially in an enclosed space.

I especially believe the original poster is extreemly brave in recounting and sharing with all of us this experience.

Its a scary world out there !!

:eek: