View Full Version : SIIA distributor; I really need help...
Hi folks, first time poster here. Thanks for taking a look.
I have a 1965 SIIA 88 with a relatively new 2.25 petrol engine, equipped with a Ducellier distributor. I recently replaced the camshaft, as the timing gear keyway sheared out of the old one. The timing is set correctly, and the distrubutor seems to be in good working order. Here's the problem: no spark to any of the plugs. Now before you start responding, read on. I have replaced and gapped the points, the condenser, the cap and rotor, the coil, and all of the plug wires and plugs. I have positive power to the coil, and I have positive power to the points when they are open and not when closed, so they are breaking the connection. However, I don't seem to be getting any power from the main coil lead into the cap, or from the cap to the wires, or from the wires to the plugs, and no spark from the plugs. I have checked and rechecked everything I can think of and I simply cannot figure this out. I would really really appreciate any help or advice or suggestions from any of you guys, because I'm at a complete loss here.
Thanks,
Ben
It sounds like you get power into the coil - what is coming out of it? The downstream components are irrelevant if the coil is not sending power to the dizzy cap (downstream = cap, plug wires, plugs).
Right, that's what I'm saying... I don't see why it's not getting any power to the dizzy. The coil is new. It just doesn't make sense. power to the points, but not the main lead to the cap.
Les Parker
03-19-2008, 01:46 PM
What condition is the rotor?
The contact peice has been know to be loose/making bad contact.
Also how is the spring/carbon brush on the dist. cap?
Pse advise
Have you tested the wire from the coil to the dizzy? Put a multi-meter on it and test for continuity (ohms). If infinity or a rather large number, you have a break. If a low resistance, it should at least be somewhat functional.
Daurie
03-19-2008, 05:22 PM
Could be a bad coil right out of the box too..
scott
03-20-2008, 03:43 AM
i've seen a bad deck to dizzy gound wire cause this, i've seen the condensor to points wire mis-installed such that it was grounding. so check the cheap stuff. but whatever ya do don't complain about it not running...i'm 7000+ miles from mine right now and would kill to be in it running or not
ok... The rotor is new, and i've tried 2 of them, and same with the cap. As for the coil, I returned one just because I thought it could be bad out of the box, and the new one is doing the same thing. I don't have and ohm meter, but I do have a continuity tester (light tester) and I get nothing out of the lead coil wire. The only thing I haven't checked is the deck to dizzy ground wire, but the contacts are breaking the connection so I assume this is ok. I just put a new condenser on it and I'm sure it's not grounding. I'm sorry I'm not trying to stump yall but I can't figure it out. Thanks for everything so far, but please keep trying!!
Jeff Aronson
03-20-2008, 10:02 AM
I'm a bit unclear on the situation. If you turn the key to "on," and then remove the cap and rotor, and then spread apart the points with a small screwdriver, do you get a spark there?
Jeff
Yes, I do get a spark there, and if I connect a light tester to the points when they are separated, I get a light, indicating that there is power. Then when they are closed, I get no light, which is how it's supposed to work, right? Also, Here's something funny: I checked the main lead wire from the coil to the center of the cap, and it didn't make a connection when I tried to bridge it across the battery and the light tester, so I put a new coil lead on, hoping that would fix it, but it's exactly the same. The new wire has perfect conductivity, and still nothing. RRrrRrrRrRGgGHhhH!
...I do have a continuity tester (light tester) and I get nothing out of the lead coil wire...
Just to clarify my understanding of that statement: the way to test continuity in a wire is to:
1. pull it off of the coil and cap
2. then hook one end of the wire to one probe from the tester
3 and the other end of the wire to the other probe
The meter runs a small current through it, and you see the light come on or the meter measures the resistance, depending on meter type. Is that how you tested it?
You say that you "get nothing out of the lead coil wire" when you test it, so by that do you mean that the light does not come on when tested in the manner I just described?
If not, then the lead wire would be bad.
Note: continuity simply means the wire is not broken. If it is broken, then the resistance (measured in ohms) would be infinity, meaning it is not conducting electricity at all. Or a very large number which would indicate that it might not be completely broken but is partially broken or otherwise defective.
I am not sure if the light testers I am familiar with are apprporiate for testing continuity. The ones I know of simply test whether or not there is potential (aka voltage) present.
So I have to ask: are you testing for voltage being present at the wire as it comes out of the coil, or are you testing continuity of the wire itself?
Not trying to bash you for not understanding this (or even implying that you don't), but I might not be understanding what you are doing...
No worries, I'm sure you understand this more than I do, I apologize if I'm using the wrong terminology.
Here's what I mean, in case I wasn't clear: I am not using an OHM meter because I don't have one. My light tester is one you can get anywhere; simply a clamp, a wire, a probe, and a bulb that lights up when you have positive on one side and negative on the other.
Now, when I say I tested the continuity of the main coil lead, I clamped the tester to the neg post on the battery, and connected one end of the coil wire to the pos post, then I connected them together, expecting to see the tester light up, but it did not, so I replaced the wire with one that did have continuity (or rather, that made the tester light up, so I had potential through the wire itself).
So I thought that might fix it, but I still have the same problem: power to the points and condenser, with the dist. grounding fine, but no spark, no power, nothing coming out of the coil with the key on, even if I turn the engine over. Is there something I'm missing?
Not to be stupid here, but I would first pull the distributor cap, and then turn the motor over (by hand, or by having an assistant bump the ignition) while you watch the rotor. If it ain't movin, it ain't gonna spark.
I've seen it before. Maybe you left out a spacer that connects the distributor to the cam?
expecting to see the tester light up, but it did not, so I replaced the wire
So it sounds like you had a bad coil-to-dizzy-cap-wire? That should mean that you are getting juice from the coil to the cap? Are you now getting spark from the cap to the plug wires?
Pull a plug wire off the cap and use your test light to see if that is getting spark. If not then the cap is bad.
If it is getting spark, then put the wire back on the cap and pull the wire off the plug and test there.
Yeah I thought about that spacer, but I've been watching it turn for days now, so I'm sure it's there (i've seen that done before too, thanks for the suggestion).
That's the thing... I replaced the wire and it's still not getting any juice out of the coil.
I just had a thought... Let me know if I have this right...
(just as a side note, this is a negative earth vehicle. Probably should have mentioned that earlier)
From the ignition, the hot wire goes into the negative side of the coil, then out the positive side (I've tried this vice-versa by the way) to the small black block on the side of the distributor. Then, out of that block comes one wire for the condensor (which has positive power), and one wire which goes to the points (positive), which break the contact when closed, forcing power to the main coil lead, which then distributes power intermittently through the cap to each plug wire.
I just want to be certain that I understand this system how I have understood it for years... It seems to me that there is every reason for the coil to be producing power to the cap, because it has power going into it, but it isn't. Is there something that happens within the distributor that could possibly prevent the coil from firing? Should I return the coil (again) and say that it was bad out of the box?
I can't think of anything I've done wrong, or differently, since I had all of this stuff apart to replace the cam. It's like chasing a ghost... an evil nonsense ghost. I hate ghosts.
Jeff Aronson
03-20-2008, 06:43 PM
Can you just test the "ground" wire that comes out of the distributor back to the coil and see if you have a circuit?
You may have a grounding problem inside the distributor itself, possibly grounding out at the points plate. By any chance, do you have access to an old Lucas distributor? Almost all of them in the Land Rover, Rover car, MG, Triumph, Sunbeam/Rootes lineups would work for this test. I'd sure be interested in dropping one in to see if you get a spark at the plugs. That would help you isolate the problem.
Jeff
While you're at it, do you have the two coil wires hooked up correctly?
I replaced the wire and it's still not getting any juice out of the coil.
I would suggest it is time to get a cheap multi-meter from Radio Shack or other store. If no juice is coming out of the coil, measure what is going in (voltage and amperage). Maybe it is just not getting enough?
And while the odds might be enormous against this, it might be possible that you have a bad replacement coil in addition to the previous one(s) you have tried. Where did you get the coil? What brand?
This is stupid. I'm going to lose my mind over this. Everything on this truck is hooked up correctly, all the components are new, continuity all over the place, dizzy's fine, cap's fine, points breaking contact, power to points, distributor grounded, new condensor, new main coil lead, new connectors to the wiring harnass, 12 volts all the way to the points (I bought a multimeter)
BUT FOR THE LIFE OF ME I CAN'T GET A *&#ING SPARK FROM THE COIL!!!!!!
Can someone please help help help? I appreciate everyone's advice, but nothing seems to be working....
I'm on the verge of picking up a baseball bat right now and going to town on this rover.
Let me add this: I was trying to see if by some chance I was getting spark from the plugs, so I pulled one, stuck it in the wire, grounded it and turned the engine over. Nothing happened. No spark, nothing. However, when I took the plug off the ground, the engine was still turning, and the plug shocked me for a split second. What in the hell was that? I can't get a spark from the coil, but suddenly the plug had a quick shock? Am I going crazy?
yorker
03-29-2008, 12:53 PM
Gim- where are you located?
have you tried a spare coil by any chance?
Gim- where are you located?
have you tried a spare coil by any chance?
Yes I've tried three different coils. I'm in orlando, Fl (sadly).
Jeff Aronson
03-30-2008, 11:04 AM
Your last post really makes me wonder about the innards and/or setup of your distributor. The shock you received implies that a charge was "held" and not delivered.
I would question the distributor first. The Land Rover Series I manual has a diagnostic section that reads "if engine will not fire" one option is "defective coil or distributor." The manual says to remove the lead from the distributor center terminal and hold it 1/4 inch from a metal part of the engine while the engine is started. If the spark jumps regularly, the coil and distributor are functioning properly.
A fault in the low tension wiring is indicated when no spark occure between the contacts (points) when separated quickly with the ignition on.
You've replaced the coil three times and with the correct, Land Rover coil and a new wire between the coil and the distributor. But you've not replaced the distributor. A new or used Land Rover [or MG/Troumph Lucas] distributor dropped in would certainly identify the problem for you. I once had a Triumph Spitfire that would not run despite having lots of new parts on the top of the distributor, but not inside, underneath the contact plate. You can have short inside the distributor - I did.
Jeff
leedr
03-30-2008, 06:34 PM
take out plugs keep wires on. ground so you can see or hear snap. have wife or husky friend hand crank the motor. with all the bits exposed follow the spark. check wire to terminal connection on all ends. dont forget to keep key on. I suspect the condenser or loose wire. good luck...call that mech. at the gas station...case of beer ect. ect....
leedr
03-30-2008, 06:38 PM
now I remember..I had a crack in the distributor...so when offf everything worked,, put cap on spark gets shorted...yep...thats what happen to me...hair line crack...use silicone for temp fix to see if it was the culprate...
Les Parker
03-31-2008, 04:39 PM
I believe all is now sorted.
If I recall correctly, it turned out to be an open circuit on the new contact set.
Hope the guy is back on the road again......
Saxondog
03-31-2008, 09:42 PM
What part of Orlando. I'm out in Lake County, might could come look if you still need it.
I believe all is now sorted.
If I recall correctly, it turned out to be an open circuit on the new contact set.
Hope the guy is back on the road again......
Me? No, I'm not on the road, I'm still working on it. I decided to order a Land Rover coil because everything seems to point to the coil, even though I replaced it 3 times. I've been really busy lately, but I'm gonna keep plugging at it. We'll see.
I'm in Chuluota actually, a little past Geneva, if you know where that is. I wouldn't want to bother you so much to make you drive all the way out here though. However if the coil doesn't do the trick, I may take you up on that offer. Thanks.
Bostonian1976
04-01-2008, 03:45 PM
you don't need to replace the coil 3 times - something else is up
thixon
04-01-2008, 04:03 PM
you don't need to replace the coil 3 times - something else is up
Agreed. Quit with the coils already. A coil is a coil (for the most part). It sounds like a distributor (bottom end) problem. You're shorting somewhere. If you have a buddy with a spare lying around, borrow it and swap it out just to see if it will work.
Replacing the coil so many times seems excessive, I know, but every time I had reasons to believe they were bad, and it's just something I don't have to worry about now. But here's the thing: what could be happening in the distributor that would prevent the coil from firing? It's grounded properly, the points have power, the condenser is new, as are all the components... everything seems to be in order just as it's supposed to be. It's really frustrating.
If it were shorting somewhere, the points would not show 12 volts on the multimeter, but they do. I can't see that it's shorting anywhere.
Saxondog
04-01-2008, 09:03 PM
I just went through Bithlo today, I travel for my job. If you still don't have it by the weekend give me a call. 352-267-2870
scott
04-02-2008, 11:42 AM
... what could be happening in the distributor that would prevent the coil from firing? It's grounded properly, the points have power, the condenser is new, as are all the components...
If it were shorting somewhere, the points would not show 12 volts on the multimeter, but they do. I can't see that it's shorting anywhere.
my buddy jeff's ground wire from the distributor deck to the distributor body looked intact. but when he removed it there was only one stand of the wire left. he made a new and his '64 fired right up.
Donnie
04-02-2008, 08:49 PM
Hi folks, first time poster here. Thanks for taking a look.
I have a 1965 SIIA 88 with a relatively new 2.25 petrol engine, equipped with a Ducellier distributor. I recently replaced the camshaft, as the timing gear keyway sheared out of the old one. The timing is set correctly, and the distrubutor seems to be in good working order. Here's the problem: no spark to any of the plugs. Now before you start responding, read on. I have replaced and gapped the points, the condenser, the cap and rotor, the coil, and all of the plug wires and plugs. I have positive power to the coil, and I have positive power to the points when they are open and not when closed, so they are breaking the connection. However, I don't seem to be getting any power from the main coil lead into the cap, or from the cap to the wires, or from the wires to the plugs, and no spark from the plugs. I have checked and rechecked everything I can think of and I simply cannot figure this out. I would really really appreciate any help or advice or suggestions from any of you guys, because I'm at a complete loss here.
Thanks,
Ben
with everything connected and a test light in hand, no meter required: turn on the key, one side of the coil should have current, then have a helper turn the motor over while U put your test light on the other coil terminal, it should pulse while cranking the engine..if it doesn't the problem is in you dist..something is grounded or mis-connected, if it does pulse, then pull the coil to dist high tension lead, from the cap and hold it about 10 mm from the engine, leave it in the coil, as you want to see if there is spark from the coil....be careful as there is high voltage available at this wire if all systems prior are OK
Couple of things:
I don't have a deck-to-body ground wire, as I don't have a Rover distrubutor; I have a Ducellier distributor and it grounds directly from the plate to the body with 3 screws.
I don't have another distributor I can test with, and I don't know anyone who does (except now I know Saxondog is sort of in the area).
The points ARE breaking the connection on the high tension lead, and there is nothing grounded as I have 12v all the way to the points (until they break contact), but there is still nothing coming out of the main coil lead (to the top of the rotor cap).
Saxondog:
I may actually get you to at least look at this thing on Sunday, depending on how things go... I'll pay you or buy you beers and water and cook you lunch/dinner... well, I'll get my wife to cook anyway...
yorker
04-03-2008, 05:34 PM
If need be I might have an extra Dizzy I could send you. It would take a few days to get to FL though.
Here is a suggestion from a UK board for you:
it sounds like he has lost the fibre washer that fits over the points and under the clip if he hasen't lost that as well.http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php?t=116111
Saxondog
04-03-2008, 08:22 PM
No goodies or money needed, would be good a excuse to take the 109 for a ride.:)
yorker
04-04-2008, 09:40 AM
Lets see if this works...
Templ4r:
Re: Ducellier and Lucas Dizzy
These are the parts Graham means.
Also make sure the condensor is properly earthed in it's strap.
Chris
http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php?t=116111&page=2
Hey Yorker,
Yeah I actually do have those parts installed, but I appreciate your input. That washer is made out of something called phenolic, which is a very interesting poly resin. It's quite incredibly durable and a really great insulate (my dad used to market the stuff to plastics companies).
I just want to make sure of something, I asked this before but no one responded: the hot wire from the ignition goes to the positive post of the coil right? And the negative post is connected to the points/condenser right? I just want to be certain I have that correct. (I have tried it both ways with different coils, but I want to be sure)
yorker
04-04-2008, 10:34 AM
ignition goes to + wire from negative goes to distributor (contact breakers)
I'm stumped- I guess this is just one of those things where you have to be there to diagnose. I'm not very good at this over the net anyway- much better hands-on. Hopefully Saxondog can help you out, he'll be looking at it with a fresh outlook.
I had a similar problem to what you are describing years ago but I think with me it was the washer.
If worst comes to worst I'll send you a dizzy- I think I have a Duce somewhere. If not I know I have the standard dizzy, it is just a matter of finding them.
ignition goes to + wire from negative goes to distributor (contact breakers)
I'm stumped- I guess this is just one of those things where you have to be there to diagnose. I'm not very good at this over the net anyway- much better hands-on. Hopefully Saxondog can help you out, he'll be looking at it with a fresh outlook.
I had a similar problem to what you are describing years ago but I think with me it was the washer.
If worst comes to worst I'll send you a dizzy- I think I have a Duce somewhere. If not I know I have the standard dizzy, it is just a matter of finding them.
Thanks Yorker,
It's really got me stumped as well. The dizzy is just the rotor isn't it? I have a few of those (new, in fact), and i've tried replacing them, but my problem seems to be that the coil isn't firing. And I just replaced it with a Rover coil from Atlantic British, and changed the condensor again... Something just isn't right. I hope Saxondog can help. I'll give him a call today. If Saxondog can't figure it out I suppose I'm going to have to tow in into town and get someone to look at it. I'll keep you folks posted... Thanks again for all your help.
yorker
04-04-2008, 11:29 AM
No dizzy= Distributer, the whole kit and kaboodle.
Oh. well then... my mistake... I'll certainly let you know if I need it. Hopefully not, but I appreciate it. Thanks.
exodusrover
06-27-2008, 12:05 PM
Gim did you ever figure this out!? I literally just stumbled across this forum and this post because Im having the EXACT same problem and been searching for a solution. Literally ive been going crazy for a week trying to figure out why i cannot get a spark out of my coil to the distributor. Please let me know if you found a solution or if they locked you up in a padded room because thats how Im feeling right now!
Hey Ben. Did you ever resolve your problem? If so, what was the issue?
Pete
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