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scott
03-03-2010, 01:58 PM
if you swap out the axles on a series for some off a toy tundra to get beefier and disc brakes, can you get 'em to run with a standard series 16" wheel?

CliftonRover
03-03-2010, 05:52 PM
the toy swap is a good option but only certain models will work, and you might be better off going to toyota wheels. You need to check that the pumkin in the front will clear the leaf springs. You will also need to weld on new spring perches.

I Leak Oil
03-03-2010, 06:29 PM
Tundra doesn't have a SFA does it? Rover would be a little odd with IFS. Rear has a center diff. You can make a rover wheel fit at a price I suppose.

scott
03-04-2010, 10:39 AM
i'm not in love w/ the tundra axles. didn't know about the ifs and center rear diff. i was just thinking they'd be 1 tons. so i guess the tocomas or the fjs are the ones to look at. toy wheel would be a drag as i like the idea of the sankey and my 88 all having the same wheels, lots of spares that way. changing spring perches are no problem. and a slightly wider stance would be nice, this upgrade is planned for an ambulance.

CliftonRover
03-04-2010, 04:33 PM
many people use fj40, fj60, or fzj80 axles the last of which are the best. The fzj80 axles often come with e-lockers.

graniterover
03-04-2010, 08:51 PM
Use dana 44's - rear from a wagoneer, it's already offset. Or just us a sals.

yorker
03-08-2010, 01:49 PM
Easiest would be a set of FJ40,45,55 axles, the later ones are better- ca 1978 and later would get you front discs and an easy swap to rear discs. 6 lug wheels are a dime a dzen so there isnt' amuch of an advantage to running the rover bolt battern aside fromt he ability to use a common wheel with a Sankey or other Land Rover. All these narrow TLC axles are 4.11 R&P.

FJ60 &62 are a touch wider, have front disc brakes, FJ60's are 3.7 R&P ratio(IIRC) and FJ62s are 4.11. There are other differences between FJ60's and FJ62s but nothing that should be insurmountable in a swap under a Rover.

FJ80 diffs can be had with F+R E lockers. they are 4.10 ratio diffs- they are also wider than any of the earlier diffs. IIRC they are F+R Discs.

All of these have front CVs(aka Birfields) rather than U joints. They can be upgraded with stronger CVs from Bobby Long too though I'd have to say the stock ones are pretty robust, more or less. If it were me I'd run the stock CVs and upgrade only when and if I found myself breaking them.

CliftonRover
03-08-2010, 05:22 PM
good info there, also there are many more gear choices avalible for the toy axles than the rover.

msggunny
03-09-2010, 08:44 AM
Good info on it:

http://www.floridalandroverclub.com/forums/v5/message.php?ForumID=5&startRecord=51&pkBBid=18012

If i had found FJ40 axles for the same deal as the FJ60's i have now i would have gone with them instead. One benefit is a bit wider track with the 60's though.

yorker
03-09-2010, 08:56 AM
fj40-55 series axles are essentially the same width as Land Rover axles which is nice- they lack front discs up to 1978 though whereas all FJ60s have front discs.

To be perfectly honest though even the Toyota drum brakes aren't that bad IMHO. Id say they are as good or better than LR drums- at least on a SWB.

fwiw I was trying to sort out the differences between fj60 and fj62 axles a while back and ran across this discussion:
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21735



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 62 front axle also has more caster built in due to the steeper driveline caused by the automatic.

In some cases, a cut and turn is not necessary when going with a SOA using a 62 axle.
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18965

scott
03-11-2010, 10:46 PM
i'm going to go w/ some seriestrek 24 splines and a soft locker. they should hold up under the awesome power of a 200 tdi which i'm still look'n for

Mojave Rover
03-12-2010, 04:12 AM
i'm going to go w/ some seriestrek 24 splines and a soft locker. they should hold up under the awesome power of a 200 tdi which i'm still look'n for

Import one. Dollar strong against the pound at the moment ($1.50 as of today). I imported a rebuilt Defender 200tdi with all ancillaries sitting in the garage and plan on rebuilding over the next three to four months. Waiting for Spring to get chassis galvanized and off to the races. Also imported a new Ashcroft short r380 to mate up to it.

As for axles, stick with Rover. Discos are cheap. Currently having a set from a '96 welded at the moment to handle parabolics. All of the coil stuff removed and adding new spring seats. Dif. ratio not the same, but nothing's perfect... It'll be nice to have disk brakes.

yorker
03-12-2010, 07:50 AM
i'm going to go w/ some seriestrek 24 splines and a soft locker. they should hold up under the awesome power of a 200 tdi which i'm still look'n for

:thumb-up:
This is probably the best and easiest way to go but keep in mind:

With the 200 tdi you can produce decent torque at low speeds plus it is multiplied at the wheels by the drivetrain. Remember the Disco and RRC were full time 4wd so they could get away with smaller axles because the stress was distributed front and rear most of the time. With a series you are putting that stress through the rear axle 95% of the time. With the weight of a 109 ambulance that may or may not work well depending what you plan to do. A Detroit will help make up the weakness of the Rover 2 pin carrier but remember you are still running around in 2wd in a 3/4 ton truck with an axle barely bigger than a Dana 30. Discovery GVW ~6000lbs



http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/200di.htm



Diesel engines have always been a bit of a weak spot in the 'Series' Land Rover range. The story started in 1957 with the first 2 litre diesel, available in the last of the Series 1s and the first Series 2s. This had reliability problems and was a little underpowered even by late Fifties standards, so it was given a major reworking in 1961. The resulting 'two and a quarter' (2286cc engine) proved remarkably long-lived, but performance was still a little marginal. I have always found these engines a little lacking in low end grunt. They have to be revved quite hard to make good progress, and when treated this way they often sound as though they are about to blow up. (Sometimes they do.) Hang a heavy trailer on the back of a two and a quarter diesel Landie, and you will find yourself being overtaken by old men on bicycles.
Over the years very many different diesel engines have found their way into Series Land Rovers to overcome this problem. Some are very good, others less so. But they all suffer from one of two problems - long term parts availability worries (especially with the Japanese engines), or the need to hack the vehicle about, cut holes in the bulkhead, weld new brackets onto the chassis etc to make the engine fit. Most recently the Perkins Prima turbodiesel (ex Austin Montego) has been very popular and successful: but old Montegos are getting hard to find, and now something new is needed. Enter the 200Di....
What is a 200Di?
Put simply, it is a Land Rover Discovery 200TDi engine, downrated by removing the turbocharger and intercooler. The Mk1 Discovery sold in very large numbers from 1989-94, and many of these vehicles are now reaching the end of their life. They have a reputation for body rot, and the early ones are now reaching the stage where they are not worth spending money on. The 200TDi is a very strong, durable engine, and with all those Discos being broken you should be able to pick up a good sound engine complete with ancillaries for no more than 500.
Why remove the turbo?


It makes installing the engine in a Series Land Rover much easier. You don't need the full-width radiator with oil cooler and intercooler, you can use the standard Series radiator instead. You don't need a custom-made exhaust system, just a Series exhaust manifold and some clamps that you can make yourself. You don't need to be able to weld, or have access to a huge pile of spare parts.

With the turbo removed, the engine will be very understressed. It is designed to cope with the high temperatures and pressures of a turbo installation, and even in turbo form these engines are good for 250k miles or more. In non-turbo form they should last just about forever.

Downrating the engine will also give the transmission an easier time. A Disco 200TDi knocks out 111 bhp and huge amounts of low end torque - far more than a Series gearbox and rear axle were designed to cope with.

You can't use the extra power in normal conditions anyway. The brakes, suspension and steering on a Series vehicle are just not up to driving at the kind of speeds that a TDi is capable of. If you want to be able to cruise at 80mph, a Series vehicle is not the right vehicle for the job. If you are towing heavy trailers up steep hills, then the turbo will definitely make a difference, but unless you are careful with your right foot you will spend a lot of time replacing transmissions, half-shafts and diffs.

The hardest part of a 200TDi into Series conversion is the plumbing: custom exhaust, intercooler, and either sourcing a separate oil cooler or modifying the radiator panel to take the Discovery radiator. So even if you are planning a full-fat TDi installation, the '200Di' route allows you to do the conversion in stages. If you prepare the new engine before you start taking the old one out, you should easily do the transplant in a weekend and get the vehicle up and running. Then you can come back to it later and do the radiator, oil cooler, intercooler and finally the turbo and exhaust as separate projects.
What is it like to drive?
I have not yet put a 200Di conversion on a rolling road, but I reckon it is putting out around 75bhp - around the same as a healthy petrol Series 2 or 3. It feels as though it has far more low end torque than any of the old Series engines, and will happily accelerate uphill from as little as 30 mph in top gear with the overdrive engaged. Performance is lively for an old Series Landie, but not quick enough to overwhelm the standard brakes and suspension. There is more than enough power for towing - my 200Di converted Series 3 will happily tow a 2 tonne trailer at 55 mph on the motorway, dropping to around 45 on long hills. Fuel consumption is around 35 mpg in normal use, dipping slightly below 30 when towing.
One other good thing about the 200Di engine is that it has a Bosch injection pump which should cope happily with running on vegetable oil - unlike the Lucas DPA pump on older Land Rover engines. I have not yet tried the vegetable oil route myself, but I know someone who has been running a Discovery on a 50:50 mix of diesel and vegetable oil for some time now with no problems.
Any disadvantages?
The 200Di is a direct-injection diesel, and it is significantly noisier than the old two and a quarter. If you fit one of these engines to a Series vehicle you really need to think about soundproofing - floors, transmission tunnel, bulkhead and ideally the underside of the bonnet as well. There is also a fair amount of vibration - the Discovery has absolutely huge engine mounts to soak up the vibes, but on standard Series diesel mounts you will find that anything in the vehicle that can rattle, will. If you want to cruise at a reasonable speed you will need an overdrive or high ratio transfer box - even then, my Series 3 (on 205R16 tyres) sounds very 'busy' above 60mph, and could really do with slightly higher gearing.
How easy is it to convert to 200Di power?

yorker
03-12-2010, 08:27 AM
As for axles, stick with Rover. Discos are cheap. Currently having a set from a '96 welded at the moment to handle parabolics. All of the coil stuff removed and adding new spring seats. Dif. ratio not the same, but nothing's perfect... It'll be nice to have disk brakes.

For the work involved with swapping in Discovery axles people might as well use FZJ-80 axles. You'll get 4.10 R+P ratios, better disc brakes all around, stronger diffs, stronger CV by far, and front and rear electric diiff locks.



Prices aren't bad on 4340 axle shafts with a lifetime warrantee either:
http://www.longfieldsuperaxles.com/products/CUSTOM-LENGTH-30-SPLINE-TOYOTA-AXLE-SHAFTS.html

scott
03-12-2010, 10:17 AM
york

i've read that bit on the 200di before. good stuff. but i was thinking w/ a rhd the plumbing would be less of a headache. i can cut and weld and know of a custom exhaust guy who's good and inexspensive.

what do you know of the bosch vs lr injector pumps?

when i'm all done i want a camper that looks cool (no problem it's a series) cruises at 65 to 70, won't snap a half shaft in the field and smells like french fries

yorker
03-12-2010, 10:31 AM
If you want to use SVO or Bio Diesel you really need a diesel with the Bosch pump. So that would preclude the use of the early Lucas/CAV pump diesels.

So a Mercedes Diesel, or a Cummins, or a 200tdi, or a perkins prima or something like that is what you need to look at for an engine. What you want to go with depends on what you want in the end.

I think for ease of install the 200di is a good idea, if you need more power (like you might with an amby- the 200tdi is probably the way to go. The thing that bugs me about them is they were produced for a rather limited time, were never ever imported here with any vehicle, and they were supeceded even by Land Rover in rather short order. Obviously parts will eb available through the usual specialized Land Rover sources here and abroad but something like a Mercedes OM617, or a Cummins 4bt, or Isuzu 4b1t, would offer much more widespread and easy access to parts here in North America for the long term.

for example:
http://www.isuzudieselswapper.com/

Price out a complete overhaul on a 200TDI vs the 4bd1t

core engine:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ISUZU-4BD1T-USED-DIESEL-ENGINE-LONG-BLOCK-CORE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3a4a092f88QQitemZ2 50350219144QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAcc essories


Engine Overhaul Kit which includes SLEEVES
PISTONS
RINGS
PISTON PINS & RETAINERS
PISTON PIN BUSHINGS
ROD BEARINGS
MAIN BEARINGS
THRUST WASHERS
CAM BEARINGS
COMPLETE GASKET SET

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GMC-FORWARD-DIESEL-4BD1-4BD1T-ISUZU-NPR-ENGINE-O-H-KIT_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3a58a71ef6QQitemZ25 0595450614QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAcce ssories

scott
03-12-2010, 11:22 AM
i'm turning japanees, i really think so...

sorry stupid song. going isuzu would require an adapter on their adapter right? the dude had produce an adapter for gm trannys and i'd need to squeeze a scotty inbetween it and the lr stuff.

i will look into the cost of a cummings. i talked to a off road fab dude in lubbock and he told of the c4bt turbo'd in a postal jeep that they built just to play with. exhaust straight up through the bonnet, slicks on the rear doing under twelve in the 1/4 mile leaves a huge cloud of black from the tree to the finish. he said it was mostly built from crap bolted on from a salvage yard.

i'm no purist so as long as it looks like a series, moves quickly, is durable and doesn't cost an arm and a leg and a marriage i'll be satisfied

yorker
03-12-2010, 11:36 AM
The Isuzu would probably exceed the strength of the Series transmission, you'd want to swap that out as a part of the transition. You'd need to consider gear ratios too.

Best way would be to use that new AA adapter on the Series transfer case and then use whatever GM tranny is best suited to the Isuzu (close ratio NV4500? NV3550? IDK)

Cummins would require a good deal the same but they can be had with the GM or Ford bellhousing which could help.

The Mercedes OM617 would be nice and quiet- pretty easy to find too. With the 1 ton/military chassis you have under your ambulance you might not even need to trim the oil pan? It is less powerful but more civilized and it revs higher (in stock form) than the Cummins/Isuzu like to.

Like I said it all depends what you want, how much $ you want to spend, and how much fabrication you want to take on.

A 200DI could probably be done in a weekend that is what is cool about them (at least to me). A 200 TDI would be more involved but still less fabrication than the Cummins, Isuzu etc would require. In 15 years who knows how easy it will be to get 200tdi parts when you are broken down on the Alcan highway on your way to Alaska? The others were sold in the 100's of 1000s here.

yorker
03-12-2010, 11:43 AM
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/

RoverDover
03-15-2010, 04:53 PM
Put a Defender grill and hood on there so you can fit a 6BT in there!

If you are gonna put a 200tdi in without a turbo, you might as well just get a 2.5NA, They are dirt cheap, and you only need a hammer and a pair of fencing pliers to rebuild them! I carry a complete set of gaskets in my tool kit and could do a head gasket in 2 hours on the side of the road if I had to.