US Customs seizing ROW defenders?

[The Stranger]

I was perusing eBay and came across this pretty sweet 1999 D110 listed in O.C. (CA). http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1999-...item1e630d929c

THis is in no way a plug or a bump for something that should be in the FS section. Rather, after I read the seller's description I was left wondering......why is it a "MUST SELL" situation? Have the Feds showed up at your door with an "export or crush" order?

If I were ballsy enough to import a true 1999 D110 w/ td5 etc., I sure the heck would not publisize the fact I possess something so blatently illegal on the internet. I'd keep her hidden on a ranch or a farm somewhere. So right there, this listing smacks of shadiness.

My real point, or question is this:
How often have you heard of US Customs (or FBI or whatever gvmt agency) tracking down illegal grey-market imports and fineing owners and seizing cars? I hear people talk about it like Keyser Soze or some other kind of "boogie man" reference.

Not saying that I don't beleive it's a serious offense and I'm not about to test the waters here, but just curious.

Let's hear the war stories! true examples.

[meatblanket]

Very interesting. Click on the vehicle history, that shows when it was imported, and the VIN checks out as a 1999 TD5 LHD 5 door. Just what it says it is. And it also appears to be titled in the US.

I would very much like to know how this was done.

[Leslie]

My real point, or question is this:
How often have you heard of US Customs (or FBI or whatever gvmt agency) tracking down illegal grey-market imports and fineing owners and seizing cars? I hear people talk about it like Keyser Soze or some other kind of "boogie man" reference.

Call Uncle George, and ask him where he's getting a lot of the Defenders he parts out....

[The Stranger]

I would very much like to know how this was done.

I read the same thing. I'm a little sckeptical about the first two lines "Customs Bond Released". I wonder if this is the correct VIN and history for THIS vehicle. VIN actually corresponds to a UK vehicle if I'm not mistaken, so I guess we're to assume a LHD conversion occured? I thought this was NOT a possible scenario for federalization?
Buyers should personally inspect all VINs on this one.
If it was pre-93 it could have been federalized...but where's the NAS roll cage? No matter, as a '99 it's not on the list as DOT allowed vehicles. PERIOD, end of sentence. Even if you paid off customs or drove through Mexico or some other national left it here when they went home. We could speculate forever about how this D-110 ended up here. Doesn't matter how it got here, just that it doesn't belong here as far as DOT is concerned. If the feds find it it will be exported or crushed. Bidding is up to $35k. God help the winner if this thing is seized!

I'm new to this world, so you all will firgive me for sounding like I know everything, but for the short amount of time that I've been looking for an early 110/"Defender" here in the states, I have come across mostly illegal imports. Shady stories with no paperwork far outweigh the legit imports.

The point of starting this thread is to ask the question...if you did own one of these Defenders how long could you expect to hold onto it before you were caught?

I wonder what puts you on the radar screen of CBP/FBI? Surely an accident or insurance claim would, but I wonder in this day and age if some government branch is using software to scan DMV databases (and perhaps even eBay) for "Puma-spec'd Defenders" and "1962 Defender" and such.

One thing is for sure, there are a LOT of them out there. Many I'm sure are owned by board-members (so I don't mean to stir the pot guys).

[Broadstone]

Vin number proves the following:


SALManufacturer code: Land RoverLDModel: Defender (for early models: Ninety, or One Ten)HWheel base: 110 inchMBody type: 4-door station wagon (LWB)8Engine type: 2.5 litre Td5 diesel, exhaust gas recirculation (EGR), catalyst8Steering and transmission: Left-hand drive (LHD), 5-speed manual (LT85, LT77, LT77S, R380 or other)XModel year: 1999AAssembly location: Solihull, UK172775Serial number
People can speculate all they want how it got here. I believe bonds only need to be posted if less than 25 yrs old and vehicle is made legal by an Independent commercial importer or if attached to a foreign passport for temp. import. If the vehicle came in as parts just because it has a title does not make it legal in the eyes of DOT and EPA. I would ask for all customs release papers such as EPA, DOT and import duty receipt. Anyone who did this legally will of course not reveal their secrets and is into something good, I wish them great fortune.

Anyone questioning the legality of an imported vehicle can contact customs with the vin number and they have all the import docs. on file.

[meatblanket]

The point of starting this thread is to ask the question...if you did own one of these Defenders how long could you expect to hold onto it before you were caught?

I wonder what puts you on the radar screen of CBP/FBI? Surely an accident or insurance claim would, but I wonder in this day and age if some government branch is using software to scan DMV databases (and perhaps even eBay) for "Puma-spec'd Defenders" and "1962 Defender" and such.

One thing is for sure, there are a LOT of them out there. Many I'm sure are owned by board-members (so I don't mean to stir the pot guys).

I've never heard of it happening to anyone, but it probably does happen occasionally. I'm importing a 1986 ExMOD 110 at the moment and I've researched import laws pretty carefully. And I can't see how this could have been done legally. As you know, the easiest way to accomplish this is to claim a newer truck is actually a rebuild of a >25 year old truck to the later spec. When that happens, assuming it gets through customs, the VIN itself wouldn't raise any questions-- so the chances of encountering problems would be very minimal.

This one having a 1999 VIN is just bizarre, and I suspect might pose a greater risk of problems. I'd want to have a full understanding of the importation process and see the documents before plunking down a wad of $$ on that.

[The Stranger]

I'm importing a 1986 ExMOD 110 at the moment and I've researched import laws pretty carefully.

I'm doing something very similar (importing myself) because I can't believe the amount of fraudulently-represented ROW Rovers in the states. I have researched the laws exhaustively as well.

I know the original intent of this thread was to hear more about "worst case scenario", I have to go back to the D110 listed on ebay right now and say that it smacks of "schill" or "chandelier" bidding. I mean how else does bidding go to $30,000 within a few hours in a NR auction?
I hope newbies and wannabe Rover owners do their research before plopping down serious cash on a nice lawn-ornament.

Oh, and BTW the "export or crush" order is the smallest hammer the government carries. You could be subject to some hefty fines and penalties by even posessing one of these. If it can be traced back to the importer, then they better have a good attorney as well. I can't remember if it was RoversNorth forum or Land Rover UK, but somebody mentioned Pinzgauars being tracked down and seized. IT DOES HAPPEN!

I suppose if anyone here did have first-hand experience with "export or crush", seizure or whatever, they probably wouldn't be so quick to brag about their mistakes, but I was sort of hoping to learn more about exactly what happens.

I know we could all assume that the government doesn't have time to chase down these cases, but I'm definately not willing to find out! It's like taxes, you could cheat and never get caught, but do you really want to be looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life?

[Terrys]

Not everything that appears to be a conspiracy is a conspiracy. That truck was imported by an RI 5 years ago. Records indicate a bond was posted on entry and released by NHTSA. Whether it was brought in under the RI's blanket bond, or an individual bond was writen, bonding companies are very difficult to please and they don't go cheap. No RI would risk his status importing something that wasn't above board, and NHTSA isn't likely to release a bond of that amount without the entry being fully compliant. Who's to say how much the original importer paid the RI to federalize it. There are people willing to spend that kind of money and it happens. 'Must sell' ? Could be a million reasons why the owner 'must sell'. The reserve was $35 and it's been met. Sounds like he might be taking a bath, since it was sold for over 50K 4 years ago.

[The Stranger]

@TerryS - yes, I suppose it's possible and I don't mean to cry conspiracy or undermine the bidding at all. Just that this truck sort of stood out as an example.

From my understanding, the ONLY ROW D110s that were eligable for "federalization" (i.e. DOT/EPA compliance) were 1993 models (Unless you wanted to pay NHTSA to crash test several 1999 models and pay for testing of the TD5). Furthermore, there is no way it would meet these requirements with a TD5 or without a NAS roll cage (has TD5 and does NOT have a roll cage). Again, anything is possible. Sure, it's possible somebody discarded a $4,000 roll cage and installed a TD5 after the fact. People build $200,000 resto-mods all the time when the market value is less than $100,000 - I understand that not everything is logical.

Most importantly, there has been examples of DOT/NHTSA outright denying federalization of RHD conversions. Since this truck originated as a RHD, I'd like to see all of the Customs paperwork and bond release paperwork before I call this legit.

If you're the seller, why not post a little more description that details this paper trail? If the truck is legal and the reserve is $35k, they're giving it away.

If its too good to be true.......

I don't mind talking about the D110 on eBay, but back to the point.
Has anyone heard of anyone getting so much as a letter from the feds?
I already know of several lawsuits and insurance claim denials, but that's the private sector. I'm talking big, bad government punishment, you know scary letters from US Attorneys, Customs agents at you doorsetp etc.? .

[Terrys]

If you're the seller, why not post a little more description that details this paper trail? If the truck is legal and the reserve is $35k, they're giving it away

Nope, not mine, unfortunately, but I have laid eyeballs on it and I can say with some degree of knowledge, that it is not a RHD conversion. At one point, seems to me about 2 years ago, this same truck was sold on ebay, and at that time the seller posted all his documentation. I have my own '93 110 and don't have any horse in this race.

Yes, the 1993 is listed as an 'eligible' vehicle, but what the regs don't specifically say is that because it not on the list does not mean it can not be imported, by an RI, and made to comply.
I have had these conversations with Customs, in person, on many occassions, having had our own customs broker on staff, and having imported over $50M in 'arms' from the UK. While these imports didn't involve NHTSA, enough insight was shed by Customs ti know anything is possible if you're willing to pay for it. If nothing more, I learned that what IS published is not the ONLY story. You can debate your own interpretation as much as you would like, but the facts remain, albeit in hiding, for those willing to spend the time, and silly dollars to find them.

[The Stranger]

Nope, not mine, unfortunately, but I have laid eyeballs on it and I can say with some degree of knowledge, that it is not a RHD conversion. At one point, seems to me about 2 years ago, this same truck was sold on ebay, and at that time the seller posted all his documentation. I have my own '93 110 and don't have any horse in this race.

Yes, the 1993 is listed as an 'eligible' vehicle, but what the regs don't specifically say is that because it not on the list does not mean it can not be imported, by an RI, and made to comply.
I have had these conversations with Customs, in person, on many occassions, having had our own customs broker on staff, and having imported over $50M in 'arms' from the UK. While these imports didn't involve NHTSA, enough insight was shed by Customs ti know anything is possible if you're willing to pay for it. If nothing more, I learned that what IS published is not the ONLY story. You can debate your own interpretation as much as you would like, but the facts remain, albeit in hiding, for those willing to spend the time, and silly dollars to find them.

Very good insight. Sounds like you know the ropes, so I won't question your assertion.
I guess when something so rare and spectacular is listed on fleabay with very little descriptive effort, many red flags go off. Sort of like sombody listing a 250 GTO on eBay with three pictures and no provenance.
Who knows, maybe it's legit. Hope somebody here buys it and fills us in on the details if it is indeed legal.

....and I also agree with your comments regarding "interpretation" if laws weren't meant to be "interpreted" (ahem, bent), the good Lord would not have invented lawyers.

That's it if nobody chimes in with a story about the Feds seizing soemthing and crushing it, I'm shipping a container of Puma parts over with a separate crate labeled "generator engine" containing a TD5 and starting my dream Rover titled as a 1961 S2 88" and seeing if that flies!

j/k, I'm importing a legit 25yo nice 110 CSW and gonna play by the rules.

[greenmeanie]

That's it if nobody chimes in with a story about the Feds seizing soemthing and crushing it, I'm shipping a container of Puma parts over with a separate crate labeled "generator engine" containing a TD5 and starting my dream Rover titled as a 1961 S2 88" and seeing if that flies!

.

A Puma does not have a TD5. The TD5 was produced 1998-2007 with an update in 2002. A Puma was built 2007 on and has a Ford 2.4TDci engine.

The TD5 is quite a nice engine if the well known issues are addressed. The Ford is a POS.

[Terrys]

There was a genuine Tomb Raider impounded down in FL a few years ago. It sat behind an ICE office for months. Maybe JC will chime in and let us know what became of it. There were so many people watching it, I sincerely doubt it saw the crusher. In fact, I have not heard of anything being crushed in years. I'm begining to think that's just an urban legend.
There are so many new (<25 yo anyway) Nissans and other rice burners coming in, a few Land Rovers should be so surprising.

[Maryland 110]

ANY import that is bonded and released has the proper EPA and DOT exemption documents. Count on it. Those two documents, the customs 7501, and the foreign registration and bill of sale are "surrendered" to the DMV in most states for a title. I always get the client two sets of originals so that there is still a set of originals to pass on to future owners.
A vehicle is only subject to destruction if upon denial of entry/and seizure the importer/owner doesn't fight/petition to have the truck enter. In this instance Customs will usually asses a fine and allow/require the vehicle to be exported.
I know the 99 td5 on ebay, know who imported it, and how, and wish I could replicate it myself. That said, I won't ruin that individuals ability to do it again by discussing it here. Suffice it to say if I can't do it, nor can you.

[RoverDover]

Here in Quebec the government decided one day that no more RHDs would pass inspection because of all the 17 year olds in JDMs killing themselves. if you have an RHD it will only pass inspection if you have proof it was imported before a certain date (2009 I believe). Constant police harrassment (getting pulled over 3 times a week) have made RHDs a PITA. It was no big deal when there were a few dozen a year coming over, but near the end there were hundreds per month being imported. Same thing is now happening with Defenders now that there are tonnes of 25 year old trucks on the market.