Expedition weight???

[KingSlug]

Hawaii is just the start....

I living in Hawaii (Big Island) and will be building my beast here. I will be eventually shipping this back to the mainland and running a 2 part trip Artic Circle to US-Mex border then Mex to South America. Then who knows...

Custom is custom. I am going with the toy axle shafts and third member because both parts are tougher than stock (axles and diff), offer easier access to parts including lockers. A few are using the HD Toyota axles/diff on Disco/D90s, RoverTracks and SeriesTrek are making them. I went with Jim Young because he has them on his series and have bought stuff from him in the past. My toy axles are 30 spline 1.29" and made of better materials. ENVs would be nice but what about parts and lockers? 101s would be neat but I would need to custom the hub and width is a little wide and require inset rims. A Sals would be cool if upgraded, but without going 35 spline the axle is 1.31" and the toy axles are much cheaper as a complete setup. I think everyone needs to carry a spare set of axles, especially if you are traveling. Early ambulance came with a ENV or a HD rover axle (fully welded trusses top and bottom).

The motivation for this vehicle I am a bit in the air. I am leaning toward the MB 300TD, I have a MB 240D now and love it. Figure 125 HP more if adding an IC. Longevity, reliability, and access to parts is key. I have seen one in a 404 Unimog and thought it a great setup. I think gearing will be more the key to the vehicle than engine kind of like the unimog again. A 4bt would be sweet but parts could be an issues, check the rebuild price on a 4BT. I am not looking for speed at all cruising at 50 mph is fine. I am leaning toward a LT95 with over drive and using the OD as 4th.

Back at the main subject. I cant see parabolics being bad if designed to a load range and using good materials. 5 or probably 6 springs. I have thought of adding a sway bar to control roll, parabolics w/ a sway bar seems like the best design between ride comfort and body roll.

I am suprised no one blasted my 6x6 idea, putting an axle further rearward protects my backend overhang. This would spread weight load and offer traction advatages. Here is a setup kind of like what I would use here, except for 88/109 combo with overlapping springs rather than 109/109 setup.

[J!m]

yeah, I didn't touch the 6X6 idea, but in a nut shell, don't do it.

We were tracking the progress of a guy in Central Africa with a 6X6 and he spent the bulk of his time fixing the beast. WAY more trouble than any benefit you could gain from it.

As we monitored his progress to assist us with our route planning, we realized he was reporting more about fixing it than any other part of the trip.

They look cool, are unique and fun for the show circuit. Otherwise, they are way too maintenance intensive.

If you do build it, I hope you will share your experiences with us...

[yorker]

The Mercedes engine is a much higher reving engine, 4bt shouldn't go much above 2000 rpm so that makes higher gearing a must. With the Mercedes you have more leeway.

I'd upgrade the sals, it isn't that difficult. A friend of mine is doing it on his lightwight if you want I'll put you in touch with him. Or get ahold of Keith from Rover tracks. If you make it into a true HD dana60 you'll have a lot more peace of mind. The toy front is ~Dana 44 strength so with the Sals you'll be in good shape. A toy rear is stronger than a stock sals but once upgraded the Sals can be stronger than a Toyota rear end ever dreamed of. Think about it- you are essentially building the equivalent of a 1 tone or 5/4 ton vehicle, you want all the margin of strength you can have. Build for beef- think M715!

The LT95 is a good tranny but do you really want full time 4wd? the U joints in Jim's toyota conversion aren't ideal with a full time 4wd system. You could get longfields I guess which might be the way to go.

With my 109 P/U I'll go with Toyota FJ40 axles F+R and upgrade them both with longfields and stronger rear axle shafts, probably also conver them both to Disc Brakes as well. Engine axle and drivetrain are still up in the air. Possibly a US V8 or diesel V6 coupled to a SM420 or SM465 adapted to the series transfer case. Othe Options include a NP205 converted to Passenger output F+R maybe with a NP203 reduction unit if I have enough room for that length.

I've pondered using parabolic springs, I've always been an afvocate for them in SWBs but I don't think I'll do it for this project, a good quality set of traditional springs is better suited to HD use. I've even read about 101s breaking their 2 leaf springs on expeditions in Kenya not fun! I'd rather have the security of a well tuned regular set of springs with the military wrap.

[TeriAnn]

I will be putting a Al water tank in the cross box storage area.

I would advise against an aluminum drinking water tank. Aluminum is chemically active and will affect the flavour of most drinking water. Also remember you will want to sanitize your drinking water tank periodically. A weak clorox solution is the typical sanitizing agent.

When I had my tank made up, I went with stainless steel. It makes for a mostly inert drinking water tank that can be sanitized over & over without problems.

Don't forget a drain at the lowest point.

Axles: I have decided to keep the rover axle for now although I will be swapping in custom toyota axles and third member F&R.

Think about what happens when you break a part in the field and how long it takes you to replace it. Parts can be from other brands of vehicles if they are unmodifed AND easy to source. But if you need to get a part fabricated or machined before you can get one to replace the part you broke, you could be in a world of hurt waiting for the part.

Think long and hard before adding a custom drivetrain/suspension part. I'm not saying don't do it, just know what you are going to do if that custom part breaks out on the trail.

I have been pondering making a 6x6.

That adds a lot of weight to your rig. It adds significantly to the things that could go wrong while on the trail. It might help in deep sand, but so does lighter weight. You are likely to loose out on articulation.

There are somethings that cry out for upgrading, Rover axles, the Rover gearbox but beyond this make every additional part justify itself. Know what will happen if that item breaks in the field and how you will recover from it breaking.

[yorker]

Couple more thoughts

Think about what happens when you break a part in the field and how long it takes you to replace it. Parts can be from other brands of vehicles if they are unmodifed AND easy to source. But if you need to get a part fabricated or machined before you can get one to replace the part you broke, you could be in a world of hurt waiting for the part.

TAW has a good point
The Series Trek http://seriestrek.com/parts.html front axles are a nice beefy upgrade for the Rover front end. Especially with CTMs in them but if you lock up the front end they too can break- remember at best they are similar to a 10 bolt or Dana 44 front end units that in the USA are considered 1/2 ton to 3/4 ton at best. you may want to buy a spare set of shafts, certainly spare U joints to take with you. Are you going to use Toyota E lockers? Also if you are really thinking about changing to full time 4wd with a LT95 of R380 or something similar you might want to consider the impact on the CTM/371 U joints. CVs or Birfs might be more appropriate? Personally I'd stick with part time and use the Rover, Dana 18, or NP205 swapped to passenger output with NP200 bits.

[TeriAnn]

TAW has a good point
The Series Trek http://seriestrek.com/parts.html front axles are a nice beefy upgrade for the Rover front end.

Custom parts made by essentually a one person shop may be "in production" but the owner just might be doing the Golden Spike trail when you just broke down on Poison Spider. He might be out on the trail for another week or two before you can get in touch. Then you may discover there are none on the shelf and materials need to be bought before making another one up. Oh, and the guy who does the castings just got married and is on his honymoon.

Some custom parts just won't break unless a whole lot of other damage gets done (like a transfercase adapter plate), but some things like custom axles or a shaft of some kind just might. If you are doing serious traveling the best thing to do is have spares for your custom parts, already boxed for shipping accessable for a friend to ship to you upon request. You may never need to replace a stub axle drilled out for a 35 spline axle, but you will feel better knowing one is an email/phone call away. BTW I did break a stub axle once. Right where the race for the inner oil seal rides against the hub flange. So it does happen. The only thing keeping the front wheel on was the knuckle for the front axle U joint.

Oh, & incase some people don't know, the Salisbury diff used the same parts as the old style Dayna 60. So you can get things like seals & bearings for a Salisbury from any company that stocks dana 60 parts. Plus both Rovers North and British Pacific stocks the parts in the US.

[yorker]

So in the end rather than the custom route it might be better to stay stock or upgrade to something entirely taken from another vehicle and adapted simply by using axleshafts and brake lines. In the end I think I'll end up doing the later with my 109- I don't want to have to buy 2 sets of custom 24 spline Rover or 30 spline Toyota axle shafts- that gets expensive in a hurry! Instead I can buy whole Toyota axles for $100 each.

[Mercedesrover]

Keep the Toyota axles under a Toyota. It doesn't make sense.

How do you figure?

The Toyota center conversion has been run extremely hard in heavy coiler trucks with no failures reported yet. There are Rangies and Discos locked front and rear on 36"s and 38"s and no one's breaking anything. It's pretty much agreed upon that this is the way to go before going to a 60.

I've done a lot of thinking about this set-up, Jim, and there are a couple of very good reasons I went with it.

1) The factory Toyota diff is incredibly strong for a stock diff and can be had with a factory installed electrically actuated locker.

2) The complete factory E-locker third member costs me less then an ARB.

3) They are a third-member type of diff. (for those of you not familliar with diffs, the whole ring and pinion comes out in one chunk.)

4) Both the front and rear axles run the identical, removable third member. In the (unlikely) event of a rear diff falure, I can pull the front and rear diffs, swap them and drive home in 2wd happy as a clam. It's a hell of a lot easier than trying to set-up a Dana-style diff in the bush, even if you can find a ring and pinion and an intall kit!

5) The E-locker can be actuated manually if need be. There's no way to actuate an ARB without having and maintaining air pressure.

6) The 1.290" 1541-H axles are MUCH stronger than the stock Salisbury axles. Yes, of course you can build a Salisbury with 35 spline axles and an ARB but you'll spend at least twice the money.

7) If you do break an axle, you can lock the diff and strill get home.

And Jared, don't let the weight scare you. A stock 2006 4x4 Dodge p/up weighs 6500lbs dry and they come with 44s. (Well, they came with 44s...Now Dodge uses AAM axles, but you get my point.) It's heavy for a Rover but not alarming.

Custom stuff is fine but make sure you build it yourself so you can repair it yourself. If you send your truck out and pay someone to put a 300tdi in it, you're not going to be much help if something happens to it on the trail. I've made a lot of changes to my truck, and all have been an improvement (in my opinion) and have been done with proven parts. And all have been done by me.

And if you do break an axle on the road, I've got them sitting here on the shelf. I'm usually home except, for the one month every year I'm on expedition with my completely unacceptable Rocky Mountain parabolics.

jim

[yorker]

Jim (Mercedesrover),

What does your 88 weigh loaded up for an expedition?

You forgot to mention the Toy Diffs are a hypoid design, another advantage in their favor over Rover's IMHO. Comparatively hypoid differential is much stronger than the spiral differential. Plus a greater variety of gearsets available to accomidate different tire sizes and engine choices.

Any thoughts about your U joints in full time use? (Jared is thinking of using the LT95 apparently)

And, don't take this as a slam, but if someone is going to take their vehicle to some far away s-hole 3rd world nation and use your axles it would be a good plan to have a spare set along for the ride. It isn't as though they could scrounge them from a local junk yard to repair them if needed.

All in all they are a pretty elegant solution, if I didn't have ~12 TLC axles laying around I'd probably do the Toyota swap to Rover cases. I've seen what stock TLC axles can withstand and have a lot of appreciation for them- the first time I saw them break was this year at Guy Fawkes and that was with stock 35 year old Birfs...



Matt Nelson

[KingSlug]

After I get my axles setup, I am ordering a spare set of axles. Heck I carry a spare set of rover axles and a third member everywhere I go in my rover, I doubt I would change that practice. I would rather swap a third member on my back than on my belly in a wave check position working on a Sals/Dana. I dont see ujoints being a problem under full time load, if they are I will have to change it. The difference between the toy and after market Sals axle is 0.10 and both are built of better materials than stock. I am not really worried about my the axles.

The reason I am think about running a LT95 is because I have one local and cheap and its still Roveresque. Its pretty tough, I should be able to fit a custom MB flywheel (read heavy) and a Gwagen clutch for a MB 300TD. I don't think I could fit a Gwagen clutch in a 2.25 rover housing. One reason I am going toward a MB diesel is because gas on the islands hasn't dropped below $3 and WVO here abounds.

As to working in the bush, parts for everything are hard to find. Thats why I carry spares of vital items including especially custom items, but you cant take everything. Heck the only vehicle I have seen in use in every country I have been to and I been to a lot, is the 2wd Toyota truck. Where are you going to find a Rover/Chevy/Dana parts in Chile 30 miles from no where? Much less fix a busted engine rod or shift fork. Do I think SeriesTrek will fold tomorrow? No. But I have full faith in the business or I wouldnt have send MercedesRover(Jim) my duckets. Actually I pestered him to build me the axles for a longtime. Yes I will be ordering a spare set.

[JimCT]

KISS.......

Keep it simple stupid, not bad words to live by. You break down in South America somewhere and the chance there are old LR's sitting around you can strip for parts is very good. And no one can tell me that parts Never break, certainly not a good belief is one is about to leave the paved world of travel. YOu do not wantot have to carry an entire spare car of parts with you....you lose space and weight for food , water and fuel. If you really want a 6x6 have you considered a Pinzgare?

[yorker]

If you order an extra set then you should be fine.The only parts that are custom are the shafts the other parts of the conversion are readily available arguably more so than Series rover bits. If you can source a new drop out for the prices Jim can get them at it isn't a bad deal at all considering you are getting a whole new differential. $550 for an all new locking diff is an awesome deal, even at Inchworm's retail prices it isn't a bad way to go.

I didn't realize your Amby didn't have a Sals fitted already- in that case the swap makes more sense. A Toyota rear end will be stronger than a stock 24 spline Sals any day of the week with 1541-H it will be even more so. Sure you could get HY-Tuff axles for the sals but what will that cost are they still readily available? Plus you still would need to buy the sals and a locker. Since you've already invested in the Toyota conversion the issue is moot anyway, go with what you have ordered and have fun.

If you have to go with a Roveresque tranny the LT95 is the way to go. I'm considering the same thing since I have one available locally. Other alternatives abound too- a lower 1st gear would be nice. With 4.88s your low ratio will be what? ~63? with 4.10 diffs ~52. Either would be ok with 33" tires+- especially since you aren't going to take this rig on the Rubicon or rock crawling in Moab.

As for U joints in FT use- I don't know the answer- thats why I asked. Most FT rigs have Birfields or CVs even tractas not U joints. If it is an issue then perhaps you can Longfield the front end?


I'd still use standard springs and bring a spare main leaf for them to boot. Parabolics might be ok, they DO use them in large trucks without difficulty but when and if they break it is often more of an issue than if a leaf breaks in a regular spring pack. With the weight you are likely to have even regular springs will ride pretty nicely so I wouldn't allow comfort to be your compulsion to buy them. If you have other reasons and feel confident in them then by all means go ahead and give them a try. With the greater weight and higher COG I'd feel more comfortable with standard type springs.

I think you've pretty much made up your mind about your build, go forward with it and have fun. Let us know how it goes.

Matt Nelson

[Mercedesrover]

Why the hate on for parabolics anyway? I don't think they're the right choice for Jared's truck but I've heard about very few problems with them. I run RM 3-leafs in the rear and 2-leafs in the front and they've been ok. I did bend a front spring a few years ago but I was hammering on the truck at the time and have a hard time blaming the springs. The rears have been in for 6 years now and have never given me a lick of trouble and haven't settled a bit.

Rocky Mountain parabolics in the Rocky Mountains:



Rocky Mountain parabolics in Wyoming:



Rocky Mountain parabolics in Mass:



Rocky Mountain parabolics in Labrador:




Hmmmm.....they seem fine to me.

Jim

[yorker]

I don't know about anyone else but I don't have any partcular animosity towards parabolic springs. Hell they've worked ok on the fronts of 48 passenger buses without any issues for a long time.

I think they are fine for a SWB, not the thing for a 1 ton type 109. I may use them on my 109 PU but the ambulance body is going down the road and the truck will be a 109 GS again.

Honestly the stock springs work fine in a SWB or 109 too if well maintained. Not rusted together in a solid lump. I frequently oil my springs and have since I installed them in '97, they work great ride as good as any parabolics fitted truck I've been in. I've beaten the hell out of them for the better part of 10 years and never so much as bent or broken one. On the other hand a badly rusted set of regular leaf springs is a terrible thing... most people why talk trash about regular leaves have had a bad experience with a crapped out set! After that anything new would feel great!!!

You do run into parabolic horror stories, usually it is with the european brands and when they are being used with heavy loads on crap roads in Africa.

http://www.sahara-overland.com/Sfiles/alg2002.htm

The only problems I've seen here with RM's is sag, I personally know of a couple trucks where this was an issue and they had to be re-arched. This was with earlier RM production so any issues are probably solved by now.

[Mercedesrover]

And getting back to 30-spline axles and Toyota centers, here are a couple pictures of Larry's Rangie on 37's at the Chile Challenge.

Something tells me they'd be strong enough for most applications.






Jim