Understanding what makes a LR

[Jim-ME]

TeriAnne,
I agree with NCRover 100%. You have provided a great service to Rover owners. Thank you!
Jim

[Momo]

What makes a LR?

I think Jim may be feeling a little like the Ford Model A purist in a world full of hot-rodders. Can you imagine the frustration at seeing perfectly good Model As being cut down in vast numbers?

There's nothing I like better than to see a perfectly stock, restored Land Rover. Other than keeping up in modern traffic, the capabilities of a stock series Land Rover are as much as 99% of owners would ever require.

I hate to see someone take an early series rig and hack it. It's like seeing a split window VW beetle get the Baja treatment. Makes me cringe.

Even in England the Series II and IIA are finally getting their due as collectible cars after years of getting hacked up to be trialers and hot dog vending trucks and ugly, tippy campers and rocket launch platforms and what-not.

I also have to wonder what people are thinking when they take a series rig, swap the whole drive train, the axles...yes, even the frame, for something else! When that happens you aren't driving a Land Rover, just riding around in the body of a former Land Rover. Same with people who try to make a series look like a Defender. These people are just into the "look" I guess.

But then again, I see that lots of these trucks would have been scrapped were it not for creative gear heads doing some really neat modifications. I've driven an 88 with a SBC under the bonnet that would smoke a Corvette off the line. It was scary fast, and really fun. Plus it would still climb like a goat and from the outside you couldn't tell it was a V8.

I've seen some trucks that have been kept together with bailing wire and JB weld, and that have defied the odds of survival. Like something out of Mad Max. Like most Land Rovers, those trucks are a reflection of their owners- eccentric and quirky. Never boring.

Look at ECR's output of series trucks. They built some amazing machines that were outwardly still faithful to the series design. Who wouldn't want an ECR built series truck with a 300tdi, disk brakes and a five speed?

Ultimately it is the owner's decision what to do with his truck. I think we all just hope he does it skillfully.

[Alaska Mike]

The way I see it, a parts car or other neglected Rover is fair game. My Rover project was rusting away because several, more knowledgeable Rover guys passed it over. They had offered the previous owner a few bucks for parts here and there, but for the most part they considered it scrap. In retrospect, they were probably right, but I saw this as my chance to get a Series rig of my own. I'm very up-front about the fact that I was only interested in the overall look, and the rest was negotiable. I really could care less if a part is "correct", if the replacement meets or exceeds the performance of the original. Certain parts I choose to retain for convenience (easier to install the original), but as others have mentioned, parts availability and reliability trumps any of my concerns for going "genuine". I'd rather the remaining NOS and reproduction parts go to vehicles that are in better shape and will remain stock.

I'm currently considering a Jeep engine swap, so consider me the ultimate heretic. No matter what I do to it, it will still be a Series Land Rover to me.

[TeriAnn]

IEven in England the Series II and IIA are finally getting their due as collectible cars after years of getting hacked up to be trialers and hot dog vending trucks and ugly, tippy campers and rocket launch platforms and what-not.

Now just when I thought 2/3rds of the SII crowd was busy swapping in a diesel engine and the other third were converting to LPG I'm told they are being reconverted to the stock configuration and the Land Rover variants are hacks that are not worth surviving. What do you advise be done with these Land Rover factory special body trucks, ugly & tippy Dormobiles, Park Rangers, Carawagons and worst of all that American dealer option, the Land Rover Explorer? And those non-pure, ghastly lightweights, forward controls ambulances and other military variants? And the Land Rover fire trucks? Shall we send them all to the crusher as not being real Land Rovers? And heaven forbid the existence of a trail or expedition rig.

I also have to wonder what people are thinking when they take a series rig, swap the whole drive train, the axles...yes, even the frame, for something else!

I for one was primarily thinking about increased safety and reliability. Later I got interested in camping comfort (a natural byproduct of getting older).

These people are just into the "look" I guess.

Just out of curiosity, How many years have you owned a Series Land Rover and approximately how many miles have you driven one.

[jp-]

Easy boys - play nice .

RoversNorth.com Hybrid forum is here

Oh god!

We're too late!

Save yourselves!

[Les Parker]

As much as I would like to side step this, I must put my 2p in .
One of the joys of Landrovers, albeit it stock or a "variant" they are after all, yours.
Yours to make as you would like your vehicle to be, from fully restored 1948 Series I (by detail oriented DLR in UK) to the desert racing Def 110's by Al Tayer Motors in Dubai, they are what the owners want them to be.
So leave the 101 F.C. 's Air Portable 88's, Dormobile/Carawagon, trialers, Comp. Safari owners to themselves.
They have want they want in a vehicle, so enjoy the badge front and rear, what is in between is the owners business.

[jp-]

Does this mean that all the Dormobiler's, etc... will now have to play only in the hybrid section?

/I'll miss you guys.

[NC Rover]

I also have to wonder what people are thinking when they take a series rig, swap the whole drive train, the axles...yes, even the frame, for something else! When that happens you aren't driving a Land Rover, just riding around in the body of a former Land Rover. Same with people who try to make a series look like a Defender. These people are just into the "look" I guess.

The previous owner of my rover replaced the entire frame and decided while it was apart to replace the tranny, transfer case, axles, etc b/c he used it for the past 14 years and discovered for the off-roading and hunting he was doing, he wanted something that was a little more rugged and up to date rather than vintage show. Of course he loved the old series rover so he had the 2.5L Eurospec petrol engine shipped from England and kept the old body style. And that 5th gear makes a world of difference on the highway. Plus should something break, he would be replacing newer parts from a Defender rather than ordering old vintage parts. It was a frame off restoration, however it was not done for the show room but rather for functionality and to take a beating.

So wouldn't you say the people who keep their rover completely original are going for a "look" as well? Everyone has different tastes and one man's junk is another man's treasure. Sometimes I wish my rover was original but then I have people say they wish they had the mods done to my rover. It just depends what you want out of a vehicle and its fun to see what you can do to your vehicle to make it an even more unique rig.

Does this mean that all the Dormobiler's, etc... will now have to play only in the hybrid section?/I'll miss you guys.

Are the hybrid's getting booted? I like hanging out with the originals.

[gallf1]

Sit down, shut up and hang on

I think that with all the problems in the world these days, whether or not a LR is totally original or not should be the least of our problems. My 109 was a CKD from Costa Rica imported to Calif and then driven to Boulder,CO. It has a mixture of parts but is pure Land Rover.

Putting it back together after a frame off restoration and reading about the history of the LR marque and the development of special vehicles and military versions facinate me. When out on the trail I will assist anyone who needs it regardless of what is under the hood and there is nothing better than leaning on the hood with a cold Guinness in one hand and bull s**ting about how steep that last hill was.

I personally dont care what it looks like or if it an orignal, just as long as its a LAND ROVER!!!

[Momo]

What makes a LR?

Originally Posted by Teri Ann

Now just when I thought 2/3rds of the SII crowd was busy swapping in a diesel engine and the other third were converting to LPG I'm told they are being reconverted to the stock configuration and the Land Rover variants are hacks that are not worth surviving. What do you advise be done with these Land Rover factory special body trucks, ugly & tippy Dormobiles, Park Rangers, Carawagons and worst of all that American dealer option, the Land Rover Explorer? And those non-pure, ghastly lightweights, forward controls ambulances and other military variants? And the Land Rover fire trucks? Shall we send them all to the crusher as not being real Land Rovers? And heaven forbid the existence of a trail or expedition rig.

Don't misunderstand me, Teri Ann. I respect your many years of Land Rover ownership and the way your Green Rover has evolved. It is yours to do with what you will and is a very capable rig. Remember when you pulled me through Afton Canyon? Never once did I make reference to that Ford V8 not being up to the job!

And I never said Land Rover "variants" are hacks. I'm talking about some of the goofy rebuilds we all see in the LR mags. Honestly, does the entire dashboard really need a diamond plate veneer? Do chrome wheels belong on a Series rig? Is galvanized capping begging to be painted over in kandy kolor?

Again, I'm not talking about Dormies, Park Rangers, lightweights, or any of that stuff. I'm talking about the fluffy cheesy rebuilds that scream "hack job". If you want a Jeep, buy one.

Mods are great, it's gotta work for the end user. Some are done to a very high standard, like Ike or Mercedes Jim. But at some point one may have altered the vehicle's character to a point where it's now a totally different vehicle. Is a Land Rover body on a Jeep frame and drivetrain still a Land Rover? I say no. Is it bad or good? Neither. It just is.

I don't like to see any of these trucks crushed or even parted out. Some get resurrected from basket case condition and it would be a real feat to bring them back to factory spec. But they aren't making any more of them and I would rather see them as unmolested as possible. Just my personal preference.

We will probably see the value of original/factory spec Land Rovers continue to go up for this reason. The classic car hobby has shown this time and again. Did you ever think you would see Dodge Challengers or Woody wagons become so valuable? We're talking six digits easy for a correct example. I don't know if a Series truck will ever approach that, and I don't care if they do, but they are climbing and it's hard to find them unmolested.

Originally Posted by NC Rover

So wouldn't you say the people who keep their rover completely original are going for a "look" as well?

No, I would say it's more about preserving what Land Rover created. Drive a stock 40 Ford, then drive a Pro Street 40 with all the billet crap and Coddington fluff. Totally different animals.

I would hate to see a field leak where we all stand around shaking our fingers at the wrong voltage regulator or the incorrect shade of black on the air cleaner, but at the same time I respect when people take the time to be exacting in a restoration. I've driven series trucks with that kind of authentic detail and they are a real hoot, like stepping back in time.

As for my years of ownership, eleven. Does that qualify me to have an opinion or will I have to wait longer?

[JimCT]

Debate

I brought this up mainly because a new owner had asked here earlier if there was anything he could do to improve engine performance. The response was no, all you can do is a different engine. BS. Peirce manifold, 2-barrel carb, 2.5 cam, better breathign exhaust, a bit of head work, synthetic oils, they all help. A few HP when you start with only a few is a big improvement. I felt the answers kind of stepped on his enthusiam, rather than giving a few helpful suggestions. Balance and blue-print and engine, see if that gets you a few HP.

[Jim-ME]

There is performance and then there is Performance. When my memory isn't failing me I compare my current 1964 to the 1965 that gave me this sickness. My 64 will cruise at 6o mph and I still have gas pedal left while my 65 would only barely do 55 mph matted. I feel it is principally due to the 8:1 compression ratio engine in my current rig plus the Webber 1 barrel all combined with the 33X9:50-15 radial tires. I feel that you can improve on a standard Rover engine and improve performance using the items already mentioned. If you are after an engine that behaves like an 8 cyl which you can do with some of the 4 cyls out there then the Rover 4 cyl isn't up to it. I think it best to be very specific when one inquires about Rover engine modifications and what you really want instead of using the general term performance. My 2 cents
Jim

[yorker]

I brought this up mainly because a new owner had asked here earlier if there was anything he could do to improve engine performance. The response was no, all you can do is a different engine. BS. Peirce manifold, 2-barrel carb, 2.5 cam, better breathign exhaust, a bit of head work, synthetic oils, they all help. A few HP when you start with only a few is a big improvement. I felt the answers kind of stepped on his enthusiam, rather than giving a few helpful suggestions. Balance and blue-print and engine, see if that gets you a few HP.

Was it Ike who said that? KeveinNY or me?

You can sink a lot of $ into a 2.25 in the search for power but it is all pretty relative. It is like polishing a turd.

A very nice 2.25l turd though. I've run through a good deal of the modifications myself- honestlyin retrospect I seriously question the practicality of them $ for $. The 2.25 is what it is and it is pretty good within those confines. If you want any good deal more your $ may be better spent elsewhere. If you try a different carb and exhaust and are still not pleased you'll probably want to look at something else for an engine rather than go 60 over pistons, 9.5 gas flowed head, etc.

[junkyddog11]

NITROUS........

[S11A]

After a bit of searching, I found the nitrous article for which I was looking:

http://www.ag.auburn.edu/users/parmega/articles/neon/

Pretty funny (not to mention illegal), but the moral of the story is that you can make more power with any engine.

My sense is that if a person wanted to spend the bucks, he or she could probably make some relatively serious power with a stock 2.25. The longevity would depend on the strength of the stock mill and how much power it would handle.

If you started with the 5-main block, had it magnafluxed, balanced, and blueprinted, added better bearings, etc., it might make a good starting point.

Some head work, a 5-way valve job, and extrude hone the head and intake.

Then swap the cam, add roller lifters, add electronic ignition, fuel injection and an engine control unit (ECU), intake manifold, and swap the exhaust manifold for headers and a better exhaust.

I would also look at a low pressure turbo, maybe in the 4 - 5 PSI range, tuned for throttle response. Add low compression pistons.

Dyno tune.

Add ricey stickers and vinyl graphics (good for at least 50 BHP)